generubin
Electric Baja
From Reader's Digest, someone elses "Trip Report": http://www.rd.com/true-stories/survival/survival-stories-hot-thirsty-and-lost-in-death-valley/
3 (not very smart) ladies take a trip to Saline Valley
- Thread starter generubin
- Start date
craig333
Riley's Human
Well I mean clearly I guess, they need to sue the gps manufacturer. Very lucky they were.
There was a family in Oregon several years ago driving a Volvo following their GPS on I-5 trying to get to the coast in Winter. Turned off I-5 and eventually got stuck in the snow. Ran the car for the heater for few days until it ran out of gas. The husband eventually went for help. He died in the snow. I search party finally found the wife and kid(s) alive. Can't remember if there was more than one.
craig333
Riley's Human
GPS is to blame frequently but not always. Pretty sure the Stolpas didn't have a gps. My favorite was the time we went up the Mormon Emigrant Trail to play in the snow. Everyone knows the road is gated up by highway 88 and isn't plowed in the winter. If you don't the signs along highway 50 and just past the lake that say the road isn't plowed ought to be enough. About half way we find a tour bus stuck in the snow loaded full of skiers on the way up to Kirkwood. The bus driver didn't want our help, was waiting for a tow truck. Bet that was one expensive tow. Doubt those skiers ever made it to Kirkwood that day.
Now the MET and many roads like it have huge signs announcing "your gps is wrong, turn around, road closed". I still prefer paper maps and finding out current conditions before I travel.
Now the MET and many roads like it have huge signs announcing "your gps is wrong, turn around, road closed". I still prefer paper maps and finding out current conditions before I travel.
OP
OP
generubin
Electric Baja
3 winters ago, we were coming out of Saline on the South Pass and right at the intersection with Hunter Mountain road (7,000 feet elevation, 20 degrees cold), We came across two male Chinese tourists flagging my son and me down. They had come in the night before in a rental suv following their GPS for a short cut to Scotty's Castle. They had driven up Hunter Mountain road with their wives several miles and got stuck in the snow. They made it through the night idling the motor for heat but ran out of gas. The wives, left behind in the car, these guys had just coincidentally hiked it to Saline road as we made the intersection. We were fully chained front and rear as the conditions were steep, heavily iced and severely cold. We warmed these guys up and were about to head up to get the ladies when the ranger's YJ happened by. The rangers went for the ladies, we took the men to Panamint Springs. All ended well but they could have very easily been dead that morning.
ntsqd
Custom User Title
In response to her inquiry about what they'd rented us, I told the gal at the car rental desk in Redmond, OR that I didn't like their "Nintendo" Explorer and she wanted to know why. Aside from all of the stuff that it tried to do without my asking it to do so, it's GPS repeatedly told me that I was going the wrong way to a place that I've driven to several times before. Often enough that I knew the fast ways and the slow ways to get there. I told her following those GPS' is a good way to die in the desert. The look on her face told me that she agreed, but couldn't say anything.
Smokecreek1
Smokecreek1
Didn't some family get lost this year in Oregon because of the GPS-the man died I think trying to walk out. You know I have a GPS in the truck and had one in the BLM, but except for finding the exact map Cord's (UTM for Me) then and still now, used my eyes and map reading ability to figure out where I am and where I've been and where I'm going! Wonder if they still teach map reading in school, boy scouts, and Army anymore? Sure hope so, GPS is great until the battery goes dead! The "Stupids" don't count, they took a short cut on the recommendation of a gas station attendant (nothing wrong with that) but didn't use their eyes and senses much less a map or common sense to drive into a place we in BLM are very careful in, in winter time. They said the snow was to deep to read the signs saying the road could close during inclement weather-yep driving in the snow in a 2 wheel drive truck-and the guy was a an active duty soldier too, just plain luck he walked out the right way and into a county road crew, then tried to sue to BLM and county because he got stuck!
Smoke
Smoke
Foy
Resident Geologist
GPS is to blame frequently but not always. Pretty sure the Stolpas didn't have a gps. My favorite was the time we went up the Mormon Emigrant Trail to play in the snow. Everyone knows the road is gated up by highway 88 and isn't plowed in the winter. If you don't the signs along highway 50 and just past the lake that say the road isn't plowed ought to be enough. About half way we find a tour bus stuck in the snow loaded full of skiers on the way up to Kirkwood. The bus driver didn't want our help, was waiting for a tow truck. Bet that was one expensive tow. Doubt those skiers ever made it to Kirkwood that day.
Now the MET and many roads like it have huge signs announcing "your gps is wrong, turn around, road closed". I still prefer paper maps and finding out current conditions before I travel.
Correct, the Stolpas had no GPS during their Dec 1992/Jan 1993 ordeal. If I recall my reading correctly, they had a highway map or atlas which showed the road from Vya, NV to Denio (NV 8A?) and simply assumed it was a maintained route. As discussed before herein, I remember consulting my own Rand McNally back in early 1993 in an attempt to see just where this remote area of northwest Nevada was and how there could be so many miles of roads without winter maintenance. Nowadays, my 2010 Rand McNally and my current Benchmark Nevada Road and Recreation Atlas each prominently show "not maintained in winter" for Route 8A as well as for other routes. I've seen many a picture of signage at Vya and Denio offering the same caution here in WTW.
There is lots of readily searchable material about the family in Oregon (where the young husband perished) and more recently concerning Albert (Al) and Rita Chretien, the couple from British Columbia, Canada who followed a GPS track into the high alpine ranges between Mountain City, NV and Jarbidge, NV in March 2011. Al died trying to walk out for help, and Rita survived for some 46 days after his departure before being found by elk horn collectors on Mother's Day weekend. Al's body was found in October 2012 by elk hunters, some 18 months after he walked away from their mired-up minivan. There are extensive discussions of this event within the RoadTripAmerica dot com forums, under "Death by GPS" and my own forum screen name of Foy.
Call me old school, call me a Luddite, call me whatever you choose to, but I'll never use GPS for anything other than a backup to good maps, a compass, and a full ration of common sense/situational awareness. Venturing into the NV-OR-ID border area without all 3 can easily be fatal.
Foy
Now the MET and many roads like it have huge signs announcing "your gps is wrong, turn around, road closed". I still prefer paper maps and finding out current conditions before I travel.
Correct, the Stolpas had no GPS during their Dec 1992/Jan 1993 ordeal. If I recall my reading correctly, they had a highway map or atlas which showed the road from Vya, NV to Denio (NV 8A?) and simply assumed it was a maintained route. As discussed before herein, I remember consulting my own Rand McNally back in early 1993 in an attempt to see just where this remote area of northwest Nevada was and how there could be so many miles of roads without winter maintenance. Nowadays, my 2010 Rand McNally and my current Benchmark Nevada Road and Recreation Atlas each prominently show "not maintained in winter" for Route 8A as well as for other routes. I've seen many a picture of signage at Vya and Denio offering the same caution here in WTW.
There is lots of readily searchable material about the family in Oregon (where the young husband perished) and more recently concerning Albert (Al) and Rita Chretien, the couple from British Columbia, Canada who followed a GPS track into the high alpine ranges between Mountain City, NV and Jarbidge, NV in March 2011. Al died trying to walk out for help, and Rita survived for some 46 days after his departure before being found by elk horn collectors on Mother's Day weekend. Al's body was found in October 2012 by elk hunters, some 18 months after he walked away from their mired-up minivan. There are extensive discussions of this event within the RoadTripAmerica dot com forums, under "Death by GPS" and my own forum screen name of Foy.
Call me old school, call me a Luddite, call me whatever you choose to, but I'll never use GPS for anything other than a backup to good maps, a compass, and a full ration of common sense/situational awareness. Venturing into the NV-OR-ID border area without all 3 can easily be fatal.
Foy
As a aviator both in the Navy and as a civilian, I don't rely on GPS or any electronic navigation system without having studied where I'm going and have a sense of what I expect to see. I always have my paper charts back ups. The same applies to overland navigation.
People get themselves in trouble following the turn-by-turn directions blindly without ever looking at an overview, digitally or paper. When traveling on business my field engineer would ask me why I always took the map from the rental car agency. I told him because without it we are just waiting for the GPS to get us lost. It will only be a matter of time.
GPS is like power tools. They are nice if used properly, but if not can compound your mistakes quicker.
People get themselves in trouble following the turn-by-turn directions blindly without ever looking at an overview, digitally or paper. When traveling on business my field engineer would ask me why I always took the map from the rental car agency. I told him because without it we are just waiting for the GPS to get us lost. It will only be a matter of time.
GPS is like power tools. They are nice if used properly, but if not can compound your mistakes quicker.
Foy
Resident Geologist
As a aviator both in the Navy and as a civilian, I don't rely on GPS or any electronic navigation system without having studied where I'm going and have a sense of what I expect to see. I always have my paper charts back ups. The same applies to overland navigation.
People get themselves in trouble following the turn-by-turn directions blindly without ever looking at an overview, digitally or paper. When traveling on business my field engineer would ask me why I always took the map from the rental car agency. I told him because without it we are just waiting for the GPS to get us lost. It will only be a matter of time.
GPS is like power tools. They are nice if used properly, but if not can compound your mistakes quicker.
Exactly. The slightest degree of situational awareness (including a sense of what you expect to see as well as the fact that few roads and no towns are shown on paper maps in that part of Elko County, NV)would have saved Al Chretien's life 2 years ago.
Foy
People get themselves in trouble following the turn-by-turn directions blindly without ever looking at an overview, digitally or paper. When traveling on business my field engineer would ask me why I always took the map from the rental car agency. I told him because without it we are just waiting for the GPS to get us lost. It will only be a matter of time.
GPS is like power tools. They are nice if used properly, but if not can compound your mistakes quicker.
Exactly. The slightest degree of situational awareness (including a sense of what you expect to see as well as the fact that few roads and no towns are shown on paper maps in that part of Elko County, NV)would have saved Al Chretien's life 2 years ago.
Foy
In regard to Readers Digest articles -
Several years ago the Lady & I and a friend were hiking back out of the Sierra after a long day hike. We met 5 individuals, 2 adult males and 3 juvenile males. Most of the trail ahead of them was snow covered. We offered information that was met with a less than receptive attitude and all the usual talk - been here lots of times, extremely experienced, etc. Enough red flags for us to figure out what vehicles were theirs at the trailhead which greatly speeded up the search scenario when they did not return home. The Lady and our friend took part in the SAR. Due to the snow covered trails these subjects had not a clue where they were. The predicted storm had come in, poor gear and a poorly set up campsite soaked them. The three "strongest" bailed on the two in trouble and headed down hill. The two that stayed put were quickly spotted during a break in the weather and transported out via CHP helicopter. It took the other three two days to bushwack a few miles down to intersect a paved road. They were lucky to survive. The three of us went in a couple of days later and repaired the historic cabin they broke into.
A couple of years later these "heroes" were lauded in Readers Digest's Drama in Real Life.
Several years ago the Lady & I and a friend were hiking back out of the Sierra after a long day hike. We met 5 individuals, 2 adult males and 3 juvenile males. Most of the trail ahead of them was snow covered. We offered information that was met with a less than receptive attitude and all the usual talk - been here lots of times, extremely experienced, etc. Enough red flags for us to figure out what vehicles were theirs at the trailhead which greatly speeded up the search scenario when they did not return home. The Lady and our friend took part in the SAR. Due to the snow covered trails these subjects had not a clue where they were. The predicted storm had come in, poor gear and a poorly set up campsite soaked them. The three "strongest" bailed on the two in trouble and headed down hill. The two that stayed put were quickly spotted during a break in the weather and transported out via CHP helicopter. It took the other three two days to bushwack a few miles down to intersect a paved road. They were lucky to survive. The three of us went in a couple of days later and repaired the historic cabin they broke into.
A couple of years later these "heroes" were lauded in Readers Digest's Drama in Real Life.
chnlisle
Post Master
Back when I lived in Oxnard and did a lot of sailing at least 2 sailboats ran aground (1 at Anacapa Isl. 1 at Sta Cruz Isl.) because the GPS directed them through land masses to an achorage. I'm not sure what that all means but I enjoyed relating it.
Back when I lived in Oxnard and did a lot of sailing at least 2 sailboats ran aground (1 at Anacapa Isl. 1 at Sta Cruz Isl.) because the GPS directed them through land masses to an achorage. I'm not sure what that all means but I enjoyed relating it.
I think it means you can't fix stupid!
I think it means you can't fix stupid!
craig333
Riley's Human
I've also told this one before but it demonstrates what happens when you are prepared or at least lucky. Memorial weekend a couple of us showed up on thursday. Drove up the Silver Fork road all the way to the Mormon Emigrant trail. Unusual to make it that far this early in the year. About a mile up the hill was the snow, and a small car full of teenage girls stuck in the snow. Lucky for them they were on their way to slumber party so they all had sleeping bags. I didn't even have to give them gas since they didn't need to run the engine all night.
Its always good to be prepared. Even knowing the way isn't enough. I've made it back to camp sucking fumes because my intended route was closed by a recent landslide. Backtracking was easy but added miles I hadn't planned on.
Its always good to be prepared. Even knowing the way isn't enough. I've made it back to camp sucking fumes because my intended route was closed by a recent landslide. Backtracking was easy but added miles I hadn't planned on.
Tony
Member
I'm just wondering if there isn't a problem with terminology in this discussion.
A GPS is a receiver that locates a point on the earth's surface. It generally comes with some sort of map so you have an idea where that point is in relation to the general topography, roads, towns, etc. It does not tell you where to go or how to get there. I'm thinking the GPS itself is not what gets people in trouble. All it does is accurately tell you where you are, a logitude and latitude fix.
I call the other thing a Navigator or a GPS Navigator. It uses a GPS receiver and a map to tell you where you are as well as plot out an intended route. These are only as smart as the programming done to produce the route and the mapmaker's knowledge of the roads, an invitation to trouble in my mind.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I have used a GPS for many years and it has never "led me astray".
A GPS is a receiver that locates a point on the earth's surface. It generally comes with some sort of map so you have an idea where that point is in relation to the general topography, roads, towns, etc. It does not tell you where to go or how to get there. I'm thinking the GPS itself is not what gets people in trouble. All it does is accurately tell you where you are, a logitude and latitude fix.
I call the other thing a Navigator or a GPS Navigator. It uses a GPS receiver and a map to tell you where you are as well as plot out an intended route. These are only as smart as the programming done to produce the route and the mapmaker's knowledge of the roads, an invitation to trouble in my mind.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I have used a GPS for many years and it has never "led me astray".
ntsqd
Custom User Title
The hair that you're splitting is one the most members here are well familiar with, even if they don't verbalize it. It is the general population who is ignorant of the distinction and who get lead astray. Too much faith in technology is never a good thing. Particularly when its blind to the possible failure modes.
Foy
Resident Geologist
I'm just wondering if there isn't a problem with terminology in this discussion.
A GPS is a receiver that locates a point on the earth's surface. It generally comes with some sort of map so you have an idea where that point is in relation to the general topography, roads, towns, etc. It does not tell you where to go or how to get there. I'm thinking the GPS itself is not what gets people in trouble. All it does is accurately tell you where you are, a logitude and latitude fix.
I call the other thing a Navigator or a GPS Navigator. It uses a GPS receiver and a map to tell you where you are as well as plot out an intended route. These are only as smart as the programming done to produce the route and the mapmaker's knowledge of the roads, an invitation to trouble in my mind.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I have used a GPS for many years and it has never "led me astray".
Oh, for certain, you're absolutely correct, Tony. As I hear the term used by the great, great majority of people, GPS is what they call the receiver/mapping software combination. It is just as certain that user errors, sometimes fatal, occur when the mapping base is incorrect right from the start or used outdated information as to the nature of roads and trails. What seems to get lots of users in trouble is selecting "shortest route". That is in fact what killed Al Chretien in 2011. A "shortest route" selection first caused him to drive tens of miles off of paved roads into the Mahogany and Copper Mountains on the Nevada side of the Idaho-Nevada border, then induced him to try to reach Mountain City, NV by driving his minivan up a trail he had zero chance of getting through, and finally induced him to complete the trip to Mountain City on foot. He left his wife in the van, took the GPS unit with him, and started on the +20 mile trek to Mountain City. SAR personnel surmise the battery failed after part of the trip on-foot hike to find help, and thatlacking guidance he veered off to the north and picked up 2,400' of elevation, which brought him into much deeper snow (8 to 10'). His remains were found at the base of a large fir tree, which SAR further surmises was a "tree hole" in March, thus providing some shelter from the winds and ongoing snowfall. Had he remained on the proper track, he'd have reached paved NV 225 outside of Mountain City within the distance he walked. As it was, his remains were found 18 months later at 8,000' on the northeast side of Merritt Mountain, some 6 miles and 2,400' in elevation from safety. The GPS unit was not found with his remains.
Foy
A GPS is a receiver that locates a point on the earth's surface. It generally comes with some sort of map so you have an idea where that point is in relation to the general topography, roads, towns, etc. It does not tell you where to go or how to get there. I'm thinking the GPS itself is not what gets people in trouble. All it does is accurately tell you where you are, a logitude and latitude fix.
I call the other thing a Navigator or a GPS Navigator. It uses a GPS receiver and a map to tell you where you are as well as plot out an intended route. These are only as smart as the programming done to produce the route and the mapmaker's knowledge of the roads, an invitation to trouble in my mind.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I have used a GPS for many years and it has never "led me astray".
Oh, for certain, you're absolutely correct, Tony. As I hear the term used by the great, great majority of people, GPS is what they call the receiver/mapping software combination. It is just as certain that user errors, sometimes fatal, occur when the mapping base is incorrect right from the start or used outdated information as to the nature of roads and trails. What seems to get lots of users in trouble is selecting "shortest route". That is in fact what killed Al Chretien in 2011. A "shortest route" selection first caused him to drive tens of miles off of paved roads into the Mahogany and Copper Mountains on the Nevada side of the Idaho-Nevada border, then induced him to try to reach Mountain City, NV by driving his minivan up a trail he had zero chance of getting through, and finally induced him to complete the trip to Mountain City on foot. He left his wife in the van, took the GPS unit with him, and started on the +20 mile trek to Mountain City. SAR personnel surmise the battery failed after part of the trip on-foot hike to find help, and thatlacking guidance he veered off to the north and picked up 2,400' of elevation, which brought him into much deeper snow (8 to 10'). His remains were found at the base of a large fir tree, which SAR further surmises was a "tree hole" in March, thus providing some shelter from the winds and ongoing snowfall. Had he remained on the proper track, he'd have reached paved NV 225 outside of Mountain City within the distance he walked. As it was, his remains were found 18 months later at 8,000' on the northeast side of Merritt Mountain, some 6 miles and 2,400' in elevation from safety. The GPS unit was not found with his remains.
Foy
craig333
Riley's Human
I wonder at what point he up tossed the gps (not making a distinction in terminology) as far as he could.
Foy
Resident Geologist
I wonder at what point he up tossed the gps (not making a distinction in terminology) as far as he could.
Interviews with Rita Chretien indicate the following: They got their van stuck in mud along Taylor Canyon Road, a road which in dry summer weather they'd probably have been able to drive to other roads intersecting NV 225. After 3 days of trying to un-stick it and turn around, Al succeeded in getting it un-stuck from the hole but was headed in the wrong direction, and got stuck a second and final time trying to pass back through the hole. The GPS unit was rechargable via the minivan's 12v DC circuit, so he had limited battery life and no way to recharge without the vehicle. He left Rita detailed plans as to his intended route in the form of written notes. He then took the GPS, a smidgin of hard candy, trail mix, and water, and headed west into heavy snow cover as he ascended Taylor Canyon. Elk Horn collectors headed up Meadow Creek Road from Rowland, NV, an uninhabited dot on the map right on the Bruneau River, found Rita near death in the van, out of gas, out of food, and too weak to go down to the creek for more water, 46 days later. A massive SAR effort followed the obvious pathway as defined by Al's notes and logical assumptions as to routing choices. No traces of Al Chretien were found. Only when his remains were found 18 months later did the speculation arise that the GPS battery gave out, as he was found miles off of the planned route.
Foy
Interviews with Rita Chretien indicate the following: They got their van stuck in mud along Taylor Canyon Road, a road which in dry summer weather they'd probably have been able to drive to other roads intersecting NV 225. After 3 days of trying to un-stick it and turn around, Al succeeded in getting it un-stuck from the hole but was headed in the wrong direction, and got stuck a second and final time trying to pass back through the hole. The GPS unit was rechargable via the minivan's 12v DC circuit, so he had limited battery life and no way to recharge without the vehicle. He left Rita detailed plans as to his intended route in the form of written notes. He then took the GPS, a smidgin of hard candy, trail mix, and water, and headed west into heavy snow cover as he ascended Taylor Canyon. Elk Horn collectors headed up Meadow Creek Road from Rowland, NV, an uninhabited dot on the map right on the Bruneau River, found Rita near death in the van, out of gas, out of food, and too weak to go down to the creek for more water, 46 days later. A massive SAR effort followed the obvious pathway as defined by Al's notes and logical assumptions as to routing choices. No traces of Al Chretien were found. Only when his remains were found 18 months later did the speculation arise that the GPS battery gave out, as he was found miles off of the planned route.
Foy
12valve
Senior Member
As a member of SAR for almost 14 years, I can tell all sorts of stories of people making simple mistakes with grave consequences. Sometimes we wonder how they can be so lame, but I know if I were put on the streets on New York City, I would probably be dead 3 days. As a group, from experience, we all know how to travel and be prepared for what may come our way. I bet if we all looked back on our first trips, we would cringe and all the mistakes we made. Bad news, there is a majority who don't and they pay the price. You are right to say, "they should have had a map (if they could read it) and have more food and water in the car". Problem is, that simply does not happen and for the majority of people, they never will be prepared hence, a need for SAR. For those who live in California, how prepared are you for a major earthquake and all the problems that come with one? My guess with this group, pretty well prepared. How about your neighbors? True, common sense can go a long way, but one of the more interesting human characteristics I have learned is that we simply do not turn around, no matter how many red flags are raised. I have been on more call-outs because the people involved just did not turn around when they knew they should. Don't get me started on " we had to make it to our destination".
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