Mixing Battery Types

[Beach]

My house battery is AGM and my truck(starting battery) is flooded cell. Does anyone here have the same set up and do you have any trouble, charging or equalization problems? Curious because charge rates differ, but so far I have no problems. I do separate my truck/house batteries when camping and when back home since there is a solar panel or I'm plugged in to 120v..

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

I would think that most of us that have a house battery (AGM) also have a flooded cell battery for the truck.I am going out on a limb here,to the fact the normal started battery is the FC style.
I don't have any problems but I have an isolator/separator for the batteries. Which should be the normal.
If you don't separate the two batteries you could draw down the truck battery if you are out a few days.
Frank

 

[ckent323]

I have read at several sites containing battery information that you should not mix battery types and groups. Also I have read at several sites that starting, deep cycle and Marine batteries are all constructed differently. Some people on Expedition Portal have claimed that the Sears Diehard Platinum (and Odessey) Starting and Marine batteries are the same except for the battery terminal configuratiion. Based on my limited research I believe this is incorrect and that the plate thicknesses are different.

Read and decide for youirself.

See:

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html

http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html


Regards,
Craig

 

[ckent323]

I sent an email to a customer rep at Enersys (manufacturer of Odessy and Sears Die Hard Platinum) asking if there are any differences in the absorptive mat sizes between the starting and marine batteries of the same group.

I will report what I learn.

Regards,

Craig

 

[MarkBC]

I have read at several sites containing battery information that you should not mix battery types and groups....

But this advice refers to mixing different battery types in the camper, surely....?
Otherwise you'd have to have a deep-cycle battery in your engine compartment or a starting battery in your camper....right?

The OP is asking if it's OK to have different batteries in the engine compartment ("starting") and the camper ("house")...and the answer is "Yes, it's fine".
AGM batteries are included as standard equipment in campers that will be mounted on trucks with flooded/wet-cell batteries. That's the norm.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

But this advice refers to mixing different battery types in the camper, surely....?
Otherwise you'd have to have a deep-cycle battery in your engine compartment or a starting battery in your camper....right?

The OP is asking if it's OK to have different batteries in the engine compartment ("starting") and the camper ("house")...and the answer is "Yes, it's fine".
AGM batteries are included as standard equipment in campers that will be mounted on trucks with flooded/wet-cell batteries. That's the norm.

Thanks Mark for putting this in the proper words.
If you have two batteries in the camper both AGMs but different sizes would that be a problem?
Thinking about adding a second battery to the camper.I have an Interstate AGM 75a.If I added a second I would get a Sears like Ski has written about,which is a AGM 100a.
Frank

 

[ckent323]

Here is the reply I received:

"Hello Craig Kent,

Thank you for contacting EnerSys/ODYSSEY.

The TPPL flat plate technology is unique in comparison to other batteries that are manufactured and marketed as strictly cranking or deep cycle batteries. What you say is true for most other AGM and conventional flooded lead acid batteries on the market. However, due to this unique Thin Plate Pure Lead technology, the ODYSSEY battery is truly a dual purpose battery that can be utilized in applications for both cranking and/or deep cycling. So, when I say the battery is the same internally, that is a fact. All of the batteries in a particular series will have the same performance specifications regardless of their terminal configuration. So, that said, an automotive labeled PC1500 could be used as a marine house load battery with the same performance expectations. We have many automotive enthusiasts that use the marine dual terminal PC1500 in the place of the automotive labeled model PC1500 because of the threaded stud terminal that can be used for auxiliary loads. Here is a link for you…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P-wqckJ2nM&list=PLR4mlEnI7ztnbFMzcihoz4dVnsLk0cbVG Manufacturing Facility video Jhttp://www.youtube.com/user/OdysseyBatteries other product/consumer videos if you are interested in other videos

AGM is just a reference to the separating material between the positive and negative plates of each cell. There are many types of AGM batteries on the market.

I hope this helps. Sincerely,


Kathy Mitchell
ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative
Phone: 660-429-7551
Toll Free:888-422-0317
Fax: 660-429-1758
Email:kathy.mitchell@enersys.commailto:kathy.mitchell@enersys.com
Web site:www.odysseybattery.comhttp://www.odysseybattery.com/
Corp site:www.enersys.com"

 

[ckent323]

As for mixing group sizes I recommend you contact the manufacturer. I have read elsewhere that it is not advised because the different group sizes typically have different internal structure (number of plates etc so they have different charge requirements). However, I am far from an expert and mostly trying to point folks to informed resources.

Since the charging of batteries differ by type and it seems manufacturer my perspective is to take the approach of not mixing manufacturers or types or group sizes that are on a common (not isolated) charge circuit. These AGM batteries are not cheap and I see no reason to take the risk. That written, if the manufacturer tells you it is OK then, hopefully, you have an informed answer.

I will reply to the Odessy rep and ask relative to their batteries but beware that other manufactures may have a different answer perhaps because they use different technology.


Regards,
Craig

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Thanks Craig.That video was outstanding.
Back in the 50s as a scout one of the fathers was in management for the Exide battery co.in Philadelphia.He took us on a tour of that plant.Far from the days now of all the new technology.All I remember was the heave smell of the acid in the air and the storeroom of "submarine" batteries,when we still had diesel/electric subs.
When the time comes I'll check out the Odyssey battery line.
Thanks again for researching this.
Frank

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Question? What Odyssey battery would be the same in specs as the Sears Die Hard Platinum 31M? 100a that Ski talks about.
Frank

 

[ckent323]

OK I sent in two follow-up questions and I got a two part reply. The first is about mixing group types and about mixing manufacturer tppes. Read the answers carefully. ;-)

The second reply is about charging these batteries and it is important. I will post it separately.

Here is the first part:


"Kathy,





I appreciate the prompt and informed reply. Two follow-up questions related to the application of using the batteries in a camper as a "house" battery bank.





1) Can the same manufacturer and type of battery (Ssay ears DieHard Platimum) of different group sizes, say group 31 and group 78, be used on a common charging circuit?

Answer: In the case of the TPPL EnerSys products, different sized batteries can be charged individually or in parallel (assuming same state of charge) using the same charging circuit. We have a 3 bank ODYSSEY branded bench charger that will charge 3 different sized batteries provided they are not connected to each other. This is because the banks are not isolated.





2) Can batteries from a different manufacturer (assuming AGM as well - say Interstate) be used in the same charging circuit?

Answer: We do not recommend combining different technology batteries in parallel or series regardless of size of the batteries or the manufacturer due to the different chemistries and performance differences that can cause premature failure of all or some of them for that reason. When placing batteries in parallel or series, the batteries should be at the same state of charge with similar age and usage. If a battery in a group needs to be replaced due to failure then the recommendation would be to replace them all especially if they have been in service for a year or more. This is because the new battery chemistry can differ greatly from that of a “used” battery, even if they are from the same manufacturer and are the same technology.

Answer: If the batteries are not connected to each other at all and all the batteries have the same or very similar charging requirements being met by the charging system, then they could be placed on that system individually for charging.







Regards,


Craig

 

[ckent323]

Part two response about charging Odessey (or Sears Diehard Platinum) AGM batteries:

"Hello Craig,

Here is some additional information about ODYSSEY TPPL technology charge maintenance for your reference.

Proper charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the ODYSSEY battery. ODYSSEY Battery 101…

Please note that most batteries are considered fully charged at 12.6-12.7V OCV. The usable energy of the ODYSSEY battery is from 11.2V (0% state of charge) OCV to 12.84V OCV or higher.

For a more accurate Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) reading, the voltage should be checked at the battery after a minimum of 8 hours rest period with no loads after the inflated surface charger has dissipated from charger, alternator, or stator charging.

A load can be applied to remove the residual surface voltage but it is best to wait 24 hours before testing. When the battery goes below 10.0V OCV, you are getting into the chemical part of the battery and can cause permanent damage. At less than 8.0V the ODYSSEY limited warranty deems the battery over-discharged due to abuse or neglect.

The ODYSSEY charger/maintainer can maintain the battery indefinitely in or out of the application. If the battery becomes over-discharged (below 11.0V) then the sooner the battery can be fully charged more likely it can be recovered. If the battery remains connected to the application during storage (winter storage for example) or extended periods of non-use, then a maintainer charger would be required to counteract any parasitic loads.

The list of ODYSSEY program approved 12V chargers is linked on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page due to the many great chargers that are programmed for the vast majority of batteries on the market that prefer low amp charging and lower float voltages that do not fully charge or maintain the ODYSSEY battery properly.

Printed on the top label of the battery are the charging voltage ranges recommended for the ODYSSEY battery. The recommended charging current for an ODYSSEY battery is 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery for cyclic applications (about 25A for a single 62Ah rated PC1500), a constant float voltage of 13.5-13.8V and no constant voltages exceeding 15.0V in any kind of de-sulfation/reconditioning/equalize mode.

When charger at greater than 15.0V constant voltage the battery can overcharge, overheat, and/or go into thermal runaway. Maintaining the battery in float mode at less than 13.5V will bring the battery down into an undercharged condition and maintain it in an undercharged condition causing premature sulfation and premature failure. Lower amp (less than recommended charging current based on the battery size) maintainers that have the correct float voltage requirements can be used to top off and maintain any ODYSSEY battery that is already at a very high or full state of charge and to counteract the parasitic loads of the application.

For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row consistently) frequent use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season.

The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode). Stored in or out of the application with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77°F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first. The self discharge rate increases significantly for temperatures above 25°C (77°F). For every 10°C (18°F) temperature increase the storage time to recharge is decreased by half. Charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the battery. Freezing will not harm the battery and self discharge rates reduce significantly at colder temperatures.

It is recommended that the ODYSSEY battery be charged if it is less than 12.65V when put into use (cranking) per the ODYSSEY Owner’s Manual (link provided on website Literature page for your reference).

Most standard alternators/stators are not meant to be deep discharge recovery chargers and can damage the alternator/stator as well as not fully charging the battery if the battery becomes deeply discharge. Jump starting is OK with the understanding that the preferred method of charge recovery is to us a charger for the reason previously stated to charge the battery back up to a high or full state of charge to ensure that the battery is getting fully charged with by the charger or the application with use.

The Cyclic Charge Voltage range printed on the top label of the battery is the recommended voltage at the battery from the applications charging system (alternator or stator). At less than 14.0V the battery may not be getting fully charged for infrequently used applications. You can verify that the battery is getting fully charged with use by checking the voltage at the battery at least 8 hours after application use (or off charge) and if the battery voltage is not at least 12.84V then the battery is not considered fully charged. Voltage readings taken right off charge or after use (alternator/stator charging) will be inflated and inaccurate so for a more accurate OCV reading, you should wait at least 8 hours before checking the voltage (OCV) with 24 hours being preferred.

For a house load (deep cycle) application the minimum recommended charging current for any ODYSSEY battery would be at least 40% of the batteries 10 hour amp hour rating. Float would have to be between 13.5-13.8V and I would recommend that with any charger, including ODYSSEY branded bench chargers that you allow for the charger to float for at least 8 hours after the charger indicates a full state of charge to ensure that the battery is getting fully charged or leave the charger on from use to use throughout the season and in the off season, fully charge the battery and disconnect from the application and the charger to prevent over discharge during storage due to parasitic load which can include the charger if it is connected but not on.

Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns.

Sincerely,


Kathy Mitchell
ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative
Phone: 660-429-7551
Toll Free: 888-422-0317
Fax: 660-429-1758
Email: kathy.mitchell@enersys.commailto:kathy.mitchell@enersys.com
Web site: www.odysseybattery.comhttp://www.odysseybattery.com/
Corp site: www.enersys.com "



Regards,
Craig

 

[Beach]

Thanks CKent, pretty much what I thought. Can be done, but not good for the life of the batteries when mixing technologies.

 

[MarkBC]

Thanks CKent, pretty much what I thought. Can be done, but not good for the life of the batteries when mixing technologies.

No, really -- most people have different types of batteries in the truck and in the camper. You better have different batteries, 'cause they have very different functions.
Those references from manufacturers aren't talking about the situation you're asking about...assuming you're asking about truck-starting battery compared to power-supplying camper battery, and assuming that you have an isolator/separator that comes standard on our campers.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Again thanks ckent323.I understand in my way what all that info means.Most of all the idea of two batteries now seems a non starter.I don't need that much storage for the use we give our camper.I think when the time comes I'll just get a higher amp battery for the camper like the 100 amp Sears or a similar size Odyssey.
The Interstate one that came with my Bobcat is a 75 amp which seems to be fine for now.
Loads of info from that company.And they are even made here in the USA.
Frank

 

[Beach]

My thread was about mixing different technologies, flooded cell, AGM, or Gel and when mixed can they be charged effectively. I understand the difference and application(usage) of starting and deep cycle batteries.

 

[MarkBC]

My thread was about mixing different technologies, flooded cell, AGM, or Gel and when mixed can they be charged effectively. I understand the difference and application(usage) of starting and deep cycle batteries.

OK...I thought that you were asking if it matters if the battery in the engine compartment is a different technology than the battery in the camper (since you mentioned "house" and "truck starting") . The answer to that question is that it doesn't matter.
If that wasn't true then it would be a huge problem -- trying to match type and size and age between the truck-starter battery and the camper-power battery would be a nightmare.

If you have more than one battery in the camper working together (I have two) then it really does matter: they should be the same type and size and age.

 

[ckent323]

<My thread was about mixing different technologies, flooded cell, AGM, or Gel and when mixed can they be charged effectively.>

The consensus from all my reading as well as correspondence with the Odessey rep is don't do it (i.e. simultaneously on the same charging circuit).

Caveat emptor

Regards,

Craig

 

[craig333]

I'm impressed with how promptly and thoroughly they responded. FTW all my batteries (sears platinum agm), truck and camper are the same. Not the same age though, hope that isn't an issue.