Thermal pack in older FWCs

[Sloth?]

I have a 99 Hawk that is not thermal pack ready. I can handle installing the lower velcro on the wall, but am having trouble coming up with best way to hang it from the ceiling. I thought about using flat head self tapers to attach the velcro on the roof perimeter tubing. But I am concerned that at some point the screw heads will wear through the vinyl siding while it is in the down position.

Any ideas?

 

[longhorn1]

Contact FWC. If you are purchasing the thermal pack from FWC I believe it comes with the Velcro. At the very least they can share what you need and how to install it.

 

[Sloth?]

Contact FWC. If you are purchasing the thermal pack from FWC I believe it comes with the Velcro. At the very least they can share what you need and how to install it.

I am not buying it from them. And to install it like they do, I would have to completly remove the the vinyl from the roof. Then sandwich the velcro flap between the roof frame and the vinyl. Thats how I will do it if I ever have to replace the vinyl but at this point my roof and vinyl are in great shape and am not interested in pulling all those screws out and hoping they will pull tight again.

 

[longhorn1]

I believe the Velcro on our 2014;Grandby was adhered to the top of the vinyl (self adhering) and the bottom Velcro was self adhered to the top of the hard side. Why would you have to remove the top of the vinyl at the roof?

 

[kmacafee]

Build your own. A roll or two of Reflextix and some velcro and you could be out less than $200. The FWC one retails for close to $800.

 

[Sloth?]

I believe the Velcro on our 2014;Grandby was adhered to the top of the vinyl (self adhering) and the bottom Velcro was self adhered to the top of the hard side. Why would you have to remove the top of the vinyl at the roof?

Yours must be different than the 6 other FWCs I have been in. All the ones I have seen have the upper velcro sewn to a 4” section of vinyl that is then sandwiched between the roof and the the vinyl sides. Here is a pic. You can see the perforated head liner and then the white vinyl with velcro sewn on.

 

[Sloth?]

Build your own. A roll or two of Reflextix and some velcro and you could be out less than $200. The FWC one retails for close to $800.

I have done the reflextix. Tried both inside and outside(condensation testing) and i am moving away from it cause the noise when its windy bothers me. I think that crinkling noise just cuts through my sleeping brain and wakes me up.

But I have sewn up a a thermal pack using a quilted jacket liner material and am just brain storming the upper velcto mount at this point.

 

[Sloth?]

Hard to tell from this pic, but the upper velcro mount hangs from the same mounting location as the vinyl . You can push it up against the vinyl or push it up against the roof.

 

[PokyBro]

Hey Sloth,

If you could purchase some polyester reinforced vinyl (usually comes in 60” width, and sold by the yard), and cut into two inch strips, you could put them together end to end to get your camper length, then have the 2 inch Velcro stitched on top. After that, you could use HH-66 vinyl cement to attach to the top of your side liner, providing a very strong contact for the top attachment of your thermal pack, and as you have suggested, using self adhesive Velcro to the camper wall on the bottom. I’m not sure using self adhesive Velcro on top would provide a strong enough bond to hold the weight.

I’ve attached a couple pages from my build thread to provide info on the vinyl cement, and how I made my thermal pack Velcro strips incorporated during the installation of the side liner.

Just a thought of one method that might work.

Poky


https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/12116-full-build-reconstructing-a-1981-grandby-into-a-custom-hawk/page-13


https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/12116-full-build-reconstructing-a-1981-grandby-into-a-custom-hawk/page-15

 

[Sloth?]

Hey Sloth,

If you could purchase some polyester reinforced vinyl (usually comes in 60” width, and sold by the yard), and cut into two inch strips, you could put them together end to end to get your camper length, then have the 2 inch Velcro stitched on top. After that, you could use HH-66 vinyl cement to attach to the top of your side liner, providing a very strong contact for the top attachment of your thermal pack, and as you have suggested, using self adhesive Velcro to the camper wall on the bottom. I’m not sure using self adhesive Velcro on top would provide a strong enough bond to hold the weight.

I’ve attached a couple pages from my build thread to provide info on the vinyl cement, and how I made my thermal pack Velcro strips incorporated during the installation of the side liner.

Just a thought of one method that might work.

Poky



https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/12116-full-build-reconstructing-a-1981-grandby-into-a-custom-hawk/page-13


https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/12116-full-build-reconstructing-a-1981-grandby-into-a-custom-hawk/page-15

Perfect! Thanks thats exactly what I was looking for. Thanks so much, i am going to order a can right now. Did you lightly sand the the sideliner to get a better bond?

 

[ckent323]

Reflectix, from published testing, has very little insulative value as a material. I know people insist that it works as an insulator but I find reports from reliable building material sources more useful than anecdotal stories by users who do not conduct any careful measurements.

If you use reflectix to create a closed on all sides dead air space (an assembly - which could be created by any number for materials) then the dead air space is what provides the insulation.

Some excerpts on Reflectix:

"According to ASTM C518 testing, Reflectix has an R-value of 1.04. That's quite low. If you can successfully construct a wall assembly that includes a 3/4 air gap on one or both sides of the Reflectix, the R-value of the entire wall assembly (not the R-value of the Reflectix) will go up. The increase in R-value is due to the R-value of the air space or spaces. However, this higher R-value depends upon the long-term maintenance of the air space, and will be degraded if the Reflectix ever sags."

https://www.finehomebuilding.com/forum/reflectix-r-value-claims-reasonable


"Be careful in touting R-values for foil-faced bubble wraps. The numbers you quote come from manufacturers' claims; however, an examination of the testing on which those claims are based shows that the quoted R-values are "assembly" R-values, not material R-values. The R-value is for a wall or ceiling assembly including two 3/4-inch (min.) enclosed air spaces, one on each side of the foil-faced product. Such a wall is tricky to build. Moreover, the R-value derives more from the air spaces than the foil-faced bubble wrap. The companies are claiming R-value credit for studs, plywood, strapping, and dead air spaces that you have to create and build. What they never tell you is that those air-spaces have a significant R-value, with or without their bubble-wrap.
The R-value of foil-faced bubble wrap ranges from R-1 to R-2."
"You're right that it's important for builders to understand the proper applications of radiant insulating materials, but the numbers I quoted are based on ASTM C236, which (as you state) is for guarded hot box testing of assemblies, not just "manufacturer's claims".


"I have contacted Monty Millspaugh, Lisa Coverdale, and Angelic Eden at Reflectix. In connection with my investigations, I requested a copy of a lab report showing ASTM C518 testing for Reflectix. They sent me the lab report; it shows an R-value of R-1.04, which is higher than the result obtained in an ASTM C518 test performed by Glacier Bay (see link in my previous post); Glacier Bay measured the R-value of Reflectix and obtained a result of R-0.67."

https://forums.jlconline.com/forums/forum/jlc-online-expert-forums/building-science/37256-nanotech-insulation

 

[PokyBro]

Perfect! Thanks thats exactly what I was looking for. Thanks so much, i am going to order a can right now. Did you lightly sand the the sideliner to get a better bond?

No sanding is necessary, just make sure it’s clean. The vinyl cement actually causes a chemical bonding of the two surfaces, slightly dissolving both sides and drying with a very tight permanent bond.

 

[kmacafee]

That's lab testing. Field testing in my camper shows a 10-15 degree temperature advantage with Reflectix vs without - and that is in temps down to the 20's. I use velcro at the top and bottom all the way around.

As for the noise, mine doesnt seem to make any. The continuous velcro all the way around top and bottom stretches it tight enough, even on windy nights.

Reflectix, from published testing, has very little insulative value as a material. I know people insist that it works as an insulator but I find reports from reliable building material sources more useful than anecdotal stories by users who do not conduct any careful measurements.

If you use reflectix to create a closed on all sides dead air space (an assembly - which could be created by any number for materials) then the dead air space is what provides the insulation.

Some excerpts on Reflectix:

"According to ASTM C518 testing, Reflectix has an R-value of 1.04. That's quite low. If you can successfully construct a wall assembly that includes a 3/4 air gap on one or both sides of the Reflectix, the R-value of the entire wall assembly (not the R-value of the Reflectix) will go up. The increase in R-value is due to the R-value of the air space or spaces. However, this higher R-value depends upon the long-term maintenance of the air space, and will be degraded if the Reflectix ever sags."

https://www.finehomebuilding.com/forum/reflectix-r-value-claims-reasonable


"Be careful in touting R-values for foil-faced bubble wraps. The numbers you quote come from manufacturers' claims; however, an examination of the testing on which those claims are based shows that the quoted R-values are "assembly" R-values, not material R-values. The R-value is for a wall or ceiling assembly including two 3/4-inch (min.) enclosed air spaces, one on each side of the foil-faced product. Such a wall is tricky to build. Moreover, the R-value derives more from the air spaces than the foil-faced bubble wrap. The companies are claiming R-value credit for studs, plywood, strapping, and dead air spaces that you have to create and build. What they never tell you is that those air-spaces have a significant R-value, with or without their bubble-wrap.
The R-value of foil-faced bubble wrap ranges from R-1 to R-2."
"You're right that it's important for builders to understand the proper applications of radiant insulating materials, but the numbers I quoted are based on ASTM C236, which (as you state) is for guarded hot box testing of assemblies, not just "manufacturer's claims".


"I have contacted Monty Millspaugh, Lisa Coverdale, and Angelic Eden at Reflectix. In connection with my investigations, I requested a copy of a lab report showing ASTM C518 testing for Reflectix. They sent me the lab report; it shows an R-value of R-1.04, which is higher than the result obtained in an ASTM C518 test performed by Glacier Bay (see link in my previous post); Glacier Bay measured the R-value of Reflectix and obtained a result of R-0.67."

https://forums.jlconline.com/forums/forum/jlc-online-expert-forums/building-science/37256-nanotech-insulation

 

[Sloth?]

No sanding is necessary, just make sure it’s clean. The vinyl cement actually causes a chemical bonding of the two surfaces, slightly dissolving both sides and drying with a very tight permanent bond.

Thanks again. It turned out great and looks so much cleaner than the other ideas I had.