30A fuse blowing (truck to camper circuit)

b team

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I have two optima batteries in the camper. when they are very discharged the 30A fuse that supplies power from the truck electrical system blows after charging for a few minutes. I don't understand this as I thought the batteries would only accept as much current as the circuit could handle.
 
Without looking at your system and what you have would be hard.

If you have a dual battery isolator and when you fire up the engine, the sensor might say battery low and dump mass amps at the battery to charge it up. Check out what your alternator can put out and resize accordly.

A 40 to 50 amp circuit breaker might be better than the fuse as it will reset it's self.

More infomation would help.
 
A 40 to 50 amp circuit breaker might be better than the fuse as it will reset it's self.
First make sure the wire can carry a "40 to 50 amp circuit breaker"!

I sure do not want to read a post about a fire!

Be careful,
Mike
 
What you are experiencing is "normal" when trying to charge a "large" bank of batteries that are capable of a fast recharge rate.

Do NOT increase the fuse or CB size without matching the guage wires, both positive and ground.

How discharged are you letting the batteries get? That is, how many volts? I'd check with the manufacturer for the proper re-charge procedure, etc. Most trucks are not wired to properly recharge a deep cycle battery from a completely discharged state, FWIW.
 
I was walking back from lunch when I thought that the wire size might be too small and the run length might be too long. That could make the fuse pop.

Re size the wire for the load and length needed.
 
If the wire is too small I believe it will self-limit the current by getting hotter and presenting more resistance.

I believe one of the strong points about AGM batteries is that they will accept a high rate of charge, but as pointed out above, in this case the charging system is putting out more than the usual charge (the system sees **three** batteries, BTW, the truck battery and the two AGMs).

Here's the basic way it goes in the electric world:

1. Estimate the load size (bigger in this case than estimated)
2. Size the wire to carry the load
3. Size the fuse/circuit breaker to protect the wire

BTW, if these were my $$ AGMs, I would be reading what the manufacturer has to say about maximum % discharge recommended for long life. Here's an example table of voltage vs % discharge, which came from:

http://bart.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/12volt.htm
 

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(electrical engineer here...)

I haven't gotten around to this yet for my own setup, but you need a current limiter. A fully discharged battery looks like a short circuit, while a fully charged one appears as an open...

One simple way to protect the circuit is with a properly sized high power resistor in series with the batteries. The more sophisticated way is to use active devices (transistors) to provide variable impedances; this is what they use in comercially available chargers.

As time permits, I'll try to post an easy to build, cheap charging circuit, or a source for same...
 
The optimas are agm batteries.


hum ? I will have to do some more homework. I don't know much about batteries (except what the battery sales reps. say when they come in here and what I hear from customers).

I was always under the impression that the Optima Batteries were some sort of "Gel Cell" battery.

Here is a snippit' from a previous thread some time back. ...


The oldest types of lead acid batteries are flooded cell types. These have been around for decades. The liquid sulfuric acid solution in these batteries has destroyed more than a few sets of clothes and pieces of RV gear. They generate and vent dangerous explosive gases, acid "mist" during charging, corrode their terminals, often-acid damage surrounding surfaces, and require regular watering. They are the least expensive type and therefore are the choice of many RV owners.

The next types of batteries are gelled acid (Electrolyte) designs. They were introduced to American RVs by Sonnenschein of Germany over 30 years ago and widely touted for their increased efficiency and designed safety features. Their acid is immobilized by adding "fumed" silica to the sulfuric acid solution and then sealing the battery. They internally recombine most of the gases (hydrogen and oxygen) generated during charging and are maintenance free. Gelled electrolyte battery designs are generally quite old and few engineering options are left to improve them. Gel electrolyte is highly viscous and during charge and discharge the gel can develop voids or cracks. These impede acid flow and result in the loss of battery capacity. Also the gelled mixture can liquefy upon charge due to the shearing action of gassing (this property is called thixotropic"). After termination of charge, it can take an hour for the acid to gel again. During this time liquid is moving and the battery can leak if any opening has developed. Last, gel batteries may store hydrogen gas that has not recombined. When overcharging causes a gel battery's vent caps to open, explosive gasses may be vented into the battery compartment. This vented hydrogen has caused a number of "fast failures" or battery explosions.

The latest and most advanced battery technology is Advanced AGM, which was developed to provide increased safety, efficiency, and durability over all existing battery types. In Advanced AGM batteries the acid is absorbed into a very fine glass mat that is never free to slosh around. Secondly, since the plates are kept only "moist" with electrolyte, gas recombination is more efficient. (99% AGM). Thirdly, since the AGM material has an extremely low electrical resistance, the battery delivers much higher power and efficiency than the other two types. Last, Advanced AGM batteries offer exceptional life cycles.

Recombinant gas technology was brought to state-of the-art status at Concorde Battery Corporation, one of the worlds leading suppliers of sealed aviation batteries. The first AGM, "Air Worthy" batteries were delivered to the U.S. Military in 1985 and today are used on the Stealth Bomber, F- 18 fighter jet, and in other demanding military applications. The heavier "fat plate" "Lifelines" were introduced in 1989. Today, "Lifelines" are the most advanced recreational vehicle batteries manufactured in the world. They are subject to the same high standards of design and manufacture as required by FAA and Military Specifications. Additionally, "Lifeline" is the only Advanced AGM product available in standard battery configuration and sizes. They are standard equipment on many U.S. Navy crafts, fine yachts built by Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, and Hinckley Company to mention three, and quality coaches built by such companies as Vision Coach, Royal Coach and Vantare Coach.

• Longevity: All batteries die. The number of cycles it takes to kill them is a function of the type and quality of the battery. When cycled at between 25 to 40 percent depth of discharge (recommended deep cycle use) "Lifeline "Advanced AGM batteries will normally easily outlast the other two types.

• Durability: Some battery designs are simply more durable than others are. They are more forgiving in abusive conditions, i.e.; they are less susceptible to vibration and shock damage, over charging, and deeper discharge damage. Gel acid batteries are the most likely to suffer irreversible damage from overcharging. Flooded acid batteries are the most likely to suffer from internal shorting and vibration damage. Lifeline Advanced AGM batteries are more durable and can withstand severe vibration, shocks, and fast charging.

• Efficiency: This comparison is critical. Internal resistance of a battery denotes its overall charge/discharge efficiency, its ability to deliver high cranking currents without significant drops in voltage, and is a measure of how well it has been designed and manufactured. Internal resistance in NiCad batteries is approximately 40%, i.e., you need to charge a NiCad 140% of its rated capacity to have it fully charged. For flooded wet batteries, internal resistance can be as high as 26%, which is the charging current lost to gassing, or breaking up of water. Gel acid batteries are better at only approximately 16% internal resistance and require only roughly 116% of rated capacity to be fully charged. Lifeline Advanced AGM has the lowest internal resistance of any battery manufactured only 2 percent. This allows Lifelines to be charged much faster if needed and also to deliver higher power when required. Owners using high output alternators, operating inverter banks, or relying on solar panels can benefit significantly when using Lifeline Advanced AGM batteries with their equipment. "Lifelines" are more efficient!!

• Battery Measurements: Most buyers like to make comparisons by using various specifications and measurements. A few common comparison criteria are Cold Cranking Amps or CCA, which is a clear indicator of a battery's ability to start an engine. Reserve Minutes depict a battery's ability to deliver current at steady rates from a fully charged condition down to 10.5 volts and are expressed in minutes, i.e., reserve minutes at 25 amp discharge. Life Cycles are used to measure longevity or how many times a battery can be discharged in its life time at set levels. We compared one of each battery type against various measurements and standards using data published data, as it was available. In our comparison we selected only top quality products; Advanced AGM Lifeline, Sea Gel and Sea Volt. The Group 27 size comparison figures are printed below. An independent comparison of GRP-27 batteries was completed by Cruising World Magazine in June of 1997. Advanced AGM won this comparison.




.
 
Like you said, that must be it. The optima(s) are pulling a lot of current when discharged. I'll check the wiring to the camper and see how many amps it will support. I might have to re do it to something larger and a high capacity bed connector.

also I'm thinking about adding a voltage gauge in the truck to monitor what is going on in the camper while driving. One time the bed connector came off and by the time i got to camp the refrigerator was hot(no steak and cold beer) and the camper batt was dead:eek:
 
the marinco plug has three pins...one is unused. that pin could be used as a "sense" line to confirm that the plug is seated.
that could just light a single led in the cab as a "GO" indicator.
 
Current Limiting

All--

I took a look around the WWW at some current limiting circuit designs. They all use a transistor as a variable resistance to snub inrush.

The cost would be about $3, but I decided nobody but a few real nerds want to go about breadboarding their own circuits for an off-road camper.

Alternately, one might consider a battery isolator... for about 10x the cost, you can at least try and take it back to the store.

~~~~~~~~~

The (brute force) series resistor route goes this way...

R = 12V/30A = 0.4 Ohms
P = 12V*30A = 360 Watts

You won't be able to find a 0.4 Ohm, 400 Watt resistor, so you make one by paralleling a hole bunch, e.g., 25 10 Ohm (20 Watt) resistors.
 
the marinco plug has three pins...one is unused. that pin could be used as a "sense" line to confirm that the plug is seated.
that could just light a single led in the cab as a "GO" indicator.

That's a clever idea, but one would want to be really sure that someone didn't somehow plug 120VAC into it...

Also when constructing a charging connection, one has to be very careful of exposed contacts -- Unlike a typical 120VAC application for which the twist-locks were designed, a 12VDC charge connection is hot in BOTH directions (charge system battery is hot and battery being charged is hot).

On Edit: It occurs to me that two Female twist-locks, with a Male-Male pigtail between them, would do it, but cost a bundle, even at Home Despot. Maybe just two conventional sets of connectors in an odd size, like 20A@220VAC, would provide three leads, off the shelf at reasonable cost. If need be, they can be cable-tied or bungeed so they wouldn't separate. Like the first two in Table 4 (NEMA 6-15 or 6-20) of the following PDF. They are unlikely to be found on anyone's extension cable and have the same energy ratings as the twist-locks.

www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNRML_R0_EN.pdf


That's why many RV systems seem to have excess fusing in them; there are typically two batteries and a converter involved, so fusing may be required on both ends of the wires (to protect the wires).

Regarding current limiting, I'm inclined more to presume the battery is self-limiting, install adequate wiring and fusing to handle the batteries likely current (from battery manufacturer advice and charge system capabilities) and ensure the voltage is controlled (if the voltage isn't high enough, no current will flow to the battery) -- Why waste charging system capability? YMMV, of course!
 
Here's a useful table I found on another TC group. If you take the expected current and the expected wire length, it gives you the appropriate wire size as recommended by vehicle boom-box (aka thumpers) installers http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/.

I don't know what the underlying voltage-loss assumption in the table is, however, but it sure looks plenty beefy to me.
 

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(Note to all the normal people in the forum-- this kind of stuff gets me unreasonably excited; I know it's odd, but at least it's not immoral!!) :eek:


...

Regarding current limiting, I'm inclined more to presume the battery is self-limiting, install adequate wiring and fusing to handle the batteries likely current (from battery manufacturer advice and charge system capabilities) and ensure the voltage is controlled (if the voltage isn't high enough, no current will flow to the battery) -- Why waste charging system capability? YMMV, of course!

That was my thought, Pete, when I hooked up my own system. I tapped the supply voltage from the tow package in my '98 F150 at the base of the cab and ran that wire over to the (conventional deep cycle) battery. I've not had a fuse problem, but I've also not deeply discharged the battery, either.

Just to be argumentative, what kind of power loss would a 0.4 Ohm snubber resistor cause in a normal charging circuit? Seems like cheap insurance to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Doesn't it seem odd to anyone else that we have the NEC for house wiring, but (evidently) nothing like that for vehicles? Not to directly knock anyone, but the egregious wiring I have witnessed, e.g. failed tapcons in the ceiling of my 2001 Hawk, make me think a little bureaucracy in RV wiring might be a good thing...
 
One could easily install a 12 volt light bulb in series on the charge line. A light bulb acts as a variable resistor. The closer it gets to full charge the less power it drops across the light. If a guy installed a 24 watt bulb this would charge at a rate of 2 amp.
 
I am so not getting any of this. However If you want to know how to drive a school bus with a square cut standard transmission I can teach you...Hey its something.
 
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