Camper Power

[Riverrunner]

I know there's been a lot of dicussion regarding batteries and solar but I haven't seen or found what I'm looking for.

Is there enough room to install two 6v batteries in the standard battery compartment in say a Grandby or Cougar?

Will a solar panel be able to charge them? How many watts would I need?

I'm certain when I order, it'll have the furnace. I know they tend to draw some power but I like their ablity to heat the space quickly. It would be nice to be able to dry camp at least a couple of days and not have to worry about a dead battery. Some of my reasoning to going this route is that I'm also not sure how the solar works when there is no sun and it's cloudy and rainy for days on end.

 

[fish more]

I HAVE INSTALLED IN MY CAMPER TWO AGM (CABELAS) BATTERIES IN THE STOCK BATTERY PLACEMENT. I HAVE THE BATTERIES MOUNTED ON THEIR ENDS, BOTH FIT TIGHTLY IN THE BATTERY AREA TO THE RIGHT OF THE WATER TANK. AGM BATTERIES CAN BE MOUNTED IN ANY POSITION, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF UPSIDE DOWN. THE BATTERIES HAVE PROVEN TO HAVE A LONG DURATION BETWEEN CHARGES.

 

[MarkBC]

......How many watts would I need?

There isn't a definitive answer...but most people who've posted what they have on WTW end up getting something like 80 - 120 watts.

Some of my reasoning to going this route is that I'm also not sure how the solar works when there is no sun and it's cloudy and rainy for days on end.

When it's cloudy and rainy for days on end solar doesn't work as well. Under heavy cloud cover -- heavy enough to rain --the current produced may only be 20% of what it produces in full sun (or so I've read...some places claim "50%", but if they're trying to sell solar then they may be minimizing the effect). And if you're camping in a deep-dark forest you'll get very little.
So, unless your solar system is oversized it could be a problem if you're camping in heavily-forested western Oregon during the gray and damp 6 months of the year.

And: if you have your panels mounted flat on the roof and camp in high-latitudes (e.g., Canada) then you're gonna need more panels to get the same output as someone camped in low latitudes (e.g., Mexico), because the angle that the sun strikes the panels matters, and 90° is best, obviously.

All that negativity aside...

...solar panels are great, and I like my 240 watt (yes, oversized!) system.

 

[Riverrunner]

I HAVE INSTALLED IN MY CAMPER TWO AGM (CABELAS) BATTERIES IN THE STOCK BATTERY PLACEMENT. I HAVE THE BATTERIES MOUNTED ON THEIR ENDS, BOTH FIT TIGHTLY IN THE BATTERY AREA TO THE RIGHT OF THE WATER TANK. AGM BATTERIES CAN BE MOUNTED IN ANY POSITION, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF UPSIDE DOWN. THE BATTERIES HAVE PROVEN TO HAVE A LONG DURATION BETWEEN CHARGES.


Are these 12v? or 2 6v? I'd really like to be able to use 2 - 6v golfcart batteries.

When it's cloudy and rainy for days on end solar doesn't work as well. Under heavy cloud cover -- heavy enough to rain --the current produced may only be 20% of what it produces in full sun (or so I've read...some places claim "50%", but if they're trying to sell solar then they may be minimizing the effect). And if you're camping in a deep-dark forest you'll get very little.
So, unless your solar system is oversized it could be a problem if you're camping in heavily-forested western Oregon during the gray and damp 6 months of the year.

And: if you have your panels mounted flat on the roof and camp in high-latitudes (e.g., Canada) then you're gonna need more panels to get the same output as someone camped in low latitudes (e.g., Mexico), because the angle that the sun strikes the panels matters, and 90° is best, obviously.

All that negativity aside......solar panels are great, and I like my 240 watt (yes, oversized!) system.


Thanks Marc. That's what I'm worried about. I spent 3 days on the Rogue River above Gold Beach last weekend and it rained 3-4 inches while we were there. I was wishing I had my camper already big time and while I was watching the rain huddled around the camp fine in rain gear , I was thinking about furnaces, battery power, and how solar would work in those conditions. Much of my camping is in the off season (off weather). In the summer, for the few trips I'll make, needing heat isn't a real issue obviously.

So many decisions and senarios to concider......

 

[fish more]

BOTH MY BATTERIES ARE GROUP 24 12 VOLT BATTERIES. I HAVE CAMPED MORE THAN SIX DAYS, USING LIGHTS, WATER PUMP AND HEATER WITH THESES BATTERIES. BOTH THE BATTERIES FIT VERY TIGHT INTO THE PLACE FOR THE BATTERIES.

 

[rotti]

Riverrunner, I assume your planning on putting wet cell batteries inside your camper?
If so, I would rethink that decision unless you can vent them to the outside.

This has been discussed before:
(credit: Pods8)

"AGMs (adsorbant glass matt) are sealed batteries that don't vent flamable gas and can thus be mounted inside the camper without venting, non-agms need to be vented out of the camper or mounted outside the camper. AGMs can often be mounted on their sides if desired, non-agms can't. Non-agm batteries require maintenance (keeping the fluid levels topped off so you don't dry out the battery and kill it. Etc.

Both work, one is just more convenient and has fewer mounting location considerations."
http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3837/page__st__20

 

[Riverrunner]

I take it the battery compartment is not vented to the outside then so my only choice is an AGM. If two 12v AGM's will last 6 days I guess I don't need to worry about it and maybe I don't need to worry about solar either.

I was also planning to do an ARB or Engle cooler/fridge if that matters.

Thanks for link rotti...how did I miss that one.

 

[rotti]

The battery compartment is not vented, just under the seat, so the AGM is the only way to go. Only down side is the higher price but well worth it.

My factory dual AGM system with the largest 110L Waeco electric frig and factory furnace has been fine for four or five days with no problem (haven't stayed in one place longer than that). I would order your camper wired only for solar and try it out first before spending for the full system......you may not need it. If my batteries drop a little I figure I can always use my 360 HP generator.

 

[ntsqd]

The battery box in our Phoenix is vented to the outside via a couple of screwed-on flanges and what looks like an industrial version of vacuum cleaner hose. It is located at the forward-right corner of the camper on the floor under the dinette seat. The parts are there to do the job, more a question of if it is worth it to you and if you have the space to do it.

 

[Riverrunner]

The battery compartment is not vented, just under the seat, so the AGM is the only way to go. Only down side is the higher price but well worth it.

My factory dual AGM system with the largest 110L Waeco electric frig and factory furnace has been fine for four or five days with no problem (haven't stayed in one place longer than that). I would order your camper wired only for solar and try it out first before spending for the full system......you may not need it. If my batteries drop a little I figure I can always use my 360 HP generator.


I'll order the camper pre-wired for solar for sure. It sounds like a couple good batteries will last as long as most of my "stay in one place" trips. The rest of my trips will be more sight seeing wanderings so my 300hp generator should work.

The battery box in our Phoenix is vented to the outside via a couple of screwed-on flanges and what looks like an industrial version of vacuum cleaner hose. It is located at the forward-right corner of the camper on the floor under the dinette seat. The parts are there to do the job, more a question of if it is worth it to you and if you have the space to do it.

One thing I need to start putting together is my wish list on a build sheet of how I'd like a few things arranged and the options. A vented option for the battery box is one of those things I need to ask about.

Phoenix is the 3rd manufacturer on my list of campers but I think they will be well beyond my budget. I wish there were more photo's and info on the manufacturers websites. It would be helpful to compare them without bothering them with emails that may or may not get a reply.

 

[ntsqd]

Just re-reading my own post I realized that the vent parts used on our camper are probably boat engine well ventilation pieces and hose.

 

[pods8]

MarkBC touched on solar performance. Lots of the percentage discrepancy is when people look at watts rather than amps. This is because many small systems are using PWM controllers which immediately lower the wattage performance because the voltage is reduced to that of the battery. Watts = volts x amps. Most panels are putting out 17-18V so when you chop down to ~14V (little higher for bulk charging, a little lower for float charging) you've already lost 20% or so off the get go. Then sun angles and such factor in (flat mounted on your camper roof isn't optimal so that cuts into efficiency as well and also hours of sun gathering since as the sun drops its even less likely to throw good rays on a flat panel). But on the flipside panels are cheap these days so its easy to toss an extra one up there to over come PWM controllers and flat panels and limited sun (to a degree). A a more expensive MPPT controller will make use of that extra voltage by the way if you want to pony up the money.


At the moment I'm still planning on using the sunsaver 10amp PWM controller w/o load disconnect feature, it runs $45. I currently have a 100watt panel sitting in my garage waiting for me to finish my camper. I'm pondering about trying to maximize the potential of that controller though by either adding two 35watt panels in parrallel or reselling the 100watt panel and getting two 85watt panels to put in parrallel. Both systems would put out just below 10amps so even just an hour or two of good sun giving me the amps (no unheard of now that I'm in CO ) would get my topped off fast. On the other hand now that I'm in CO the 100watt would also likely be plenty so I'm on the fence.

 

[craig333]

Most of us aren't drawing out batteries down all that far. I tend to park under tree cover but still usually manage to get a couple hours of sunlight on the panel. Adequate for charging most of the time.

 

[pods8]

Most of us aren't drawing out batteries down all that far. I tend to park under tree cover but still usually manage to get a couple hours of sunlight on the panel. Adequate for charging most of the time.


For sure. Summer fridge usage would likely be my biggest draw. A 100watt panel esp. in CO would most certainly charge things up, still tempting to add a little extra with the cheap panel details though.

 

[bsharp007]

I'm starting to rethink the 2 way refrigerator as a end all solution. Just back from several weeks of camping in Baja. I have the 2 way 80 liter Waco refrigerator powered by 2 AGM group 24 batteries and a 90 watt solar panel as well as the factory connection to the truck alternator. What happened was after 2 days camping in one place the refrigerator shut off resulting in ruining a refrigerator full of food, this was day 3 of a 3 week trip. I have a cheap voltmeter that plugs into the 12 volt receptical and apparently the frig will shut down when the battery gets below 11 volts or so. We had good sun the entire trip which did charge the batteries a bit but curiously even after 7 hours of driving with the refrigerator on the batteries never got over 12.5 volts which translated to 1/2 to 3/4 full on the factory battery monitor.
I'm wondering from people who have the same setup if after a long day of driving should the batteries be fully charged?
We bought a cheap foam cooler for the rest of the trip. Wished I had brought one of my Yeti marine coolers that can keep ice for a couple of weeks.

 

[pods8]

1) How old are your batteries and how do you treat them? They do wear out and loose capacity. Also if you let them get drawn down to the level that the fridge low voltage disconnect shuts itself down you've DEEPLY discharged them and that will wear them down quite quickly. Generally your should size your batteries/charging potential to ideally only draw down 20-30% normally with the occasional excursion towards the 50% range. That'll have you covered normally and some buffer if something goes wrong you can go below that 50% mark, ideally rarely. Most batteries if you pull more that ~80% capacity you will be doing permanent damage to a varying degree. Also chronically under charging them will wear them out.

2) Since both the solar and truck don't seem to be charging I suspect worn batteries. But on the truck front what do you have for a charge setup? If you've got smaller gauge wiring and a diode based isolator you'll never get great charging potential from the truck.

Edit I just looked those batteries should be about 75ah each, so a combined 150ah which is pretty decent. Assuming even a healthy pull of ~1ah on average for your fridge that would be about 50ah after two days assuming no other notable pulls. If you started with fresh/undamaged batteries your voltage should have still been something like 12.2-12.3 range as an estimate. Granted when the compressor is running it'll pull the voltage down temporarily but it sounds more like you've got damaged/worn batteries with a reduced capacity.

 

[bsharp007]

Good questions, the batteries are about 4 months old, the entire setup is factory installed. The batteries have been on a 3 step smart charger since day one. Since being home I fully charged the batteries and then ran the refrigerator overnight on 12 volt inside my garage without solar or shore power. I didn't pre-cool and after about 10 hours, the 12 volt meter read 12.5 and the factory battery monitor registered "good". Of course it wasn't my intention to run the batteries down during our trip but I thought that after a 7 hour drive or so my truck alternator would be able to top off the batteries and the solar would be able to keep up for a couple of days in the Baja sun...that wasn't the case. During most of my trip I was never in one place for more then 2 days, with usually long drives in between...sometimes 7 hours and when we arrived at our campsite the battery 12 volt meter was always in the yellow somewhere around 12 or less and the factory monitor usually registered "fair" and maybe once "good" with the refrigerator on medium setting but never "charged" even after a 9 hour drive.
After the original failure with the frig we shut it off for a couple of days and the solar was able to recharge the batteries to "fair" approx 12 volts on the meter so we started using the frig again but we kept the foam cooler...

Anyway I think I'm narrowing the problem to not charging from the alternator while driving...my expectations was that the batteries should be fully charged especially after a long drive. I have checked all the fuses that I'm aware of and connections for loose wires and haven't found anything wrong.
Right now I'm running the fridge on 12 volt only on high for the last 3 hours AND leaving a light (led) on, the volt meter registers 12.5 and the the factory battery monitor is in the "charged" position so I dont think it's the batteries and I know the solar is working...that leaves charging from the the alternator. Incidently the running lights would come on while driving and the connection for the 3 way prong into the camper was tight which would seem to indicate that it was connected to the truck alternator.







1) How old are your batteries and how do you treat them? They do wear out and loose capacity. Also if you let them get drawn down to the level that the fridge low voltage disconnect shuts itself down you've DEEPLY discharged them and that will wear them down quite quickly. Generally your should size your batteries/charging potential to ideally only draw down 20-30% normally with the occasional excursion towards the 50% range. That'll have you covered normally and some buffer if something goes wrong you can go below that 50% mark, ideally rarely. Most batteries if you pull more that ~80% capacity you will be doing permanent damage to a varying degree. Also chronically under charging them will wear them out.

2) Since both the solar and truck don't seem to be charging I suspect worn batteries. But on the truck front what do you have for a charge setup? If you've got smaller gauge wiring and a diode based isolator you'll never get great charging potential from the truck.

Edit I just looked those batteries should be about 75ah each, so a combined 150ah which is pretty decent. Assuming even a healthy pull of ~1ah on average for your fridge that would be about 50ah after two days assuming no other notable pulls. If you started with fresh/undamaged batteries your voltage should have still been something like 12.2-12.3 range as an estimate. Granted when the compressor is running it'll pull the voltage down temporarily but it sounds more like you've got damaged/worn batteries with a reduced capacity.

 

[pods8]

What are you using for an isolator/separator (I have no idea what the factory is setting up these days). Do you have something that looks like this?

or something like this:

The first one causes a decent voltage drop and can be an issue for sure.


But yeah if you're not getting charged up most of the way after 7hrs you got something wrong. Do you have fuses or breakers at each end of the charge wire? If fuses inspect them to make sure they aren't blown and/or check for voltage downstream (disconnect the camper plug first so nothing should be feeding from the other way). You might have blown a fuse or such and you were only getting solar charging?

 

[craig333]

Certainly something. If it wasn't a factory job I'd suspect bad grounds, insufficient wire size. I'd also check the voltage coming from the alternator.

 

[bsharp007]

After taking a closer look at the plug that you plug into the truck bed and taking off the electrical tape for inspection it's possible that one of the electrical crimp connectors was loose. I'm wondering if it's possible that the running lights would come on (all the newer FWC have them) but with a loose crimp not be able to handle efficient charging of the camper batteries? I'm hoping that's it...can this be simple for once

Incidently FWC is using the Sure Power 1314 battery seperator and curiously the night the fridge turned off I started the truck hoping to charge the battery, we could hear a clicking sound coming from the area where the seperator is every few seconds, my guess is that the camper batteries got so low that the seperator was activating. We had driven that day for several hours but it was the only cloudy day of the trip. So apparently we were not getting an efficient charge from alternator.

Previously on 2-3 day trips the charging system worked great...no problem keeping the fridge going and recharging with solar or driving. Tested the batteries again last night, after running the fridge on 12 volt and keeping a light on for about 9 hours the factory monitor reads "charged" and the volt meter is at 12.6, the fridge is at 29 degrees. Will rewire the plug if that doesn't work it's beyond my limited skills so I'll call FWC.

Btw sorry for hijacking this thread!


Certainly something. If it wasn't a factory job I'd suspect bad grounds, insufficient wire size. I'd also check the voltage coming from the alternator.