cold weather

[pixiedust99]

hi there
just wondering what temperatures you folks are finding your FWC comfortable at?
we live in the Yukon, Canada (beside Alaska) and would like to find a truck camper that will be comfortable for early spring and winter in the mountains while we are backcountry skiing. i don't think we would camp below -15 degrees celsius (5 farenheit) , but....it may be colder, hard to tell.
hope to hear from some of you!

 

[MarkBC]

Welcome to WTW, pixiedust!

I've used my FWC Hawk (2005) in outside temperatures as low as 0°F and frequently single-digit °F and with the addition of insulation for the soft-sides and with the heater running I was comfortable. The pop-up soft-sides aren't insulated, so they really need help.

Insulation: I use Reflectix (such as this), attached to the the soft-sides with Velcro, mating with the existing OEM Velcro strip at the top. Because this is semi-rigid I have to remove it when I drop the top, but the installation/removal takes only a couple of minutes.
OR you can get the FWC Arctic Pack if you don't mind spending the money. ski3pin did a great home-made version of the Arctic Pack.

Heater: The built-in forced-air furnace is a great way to heat up the camper quickly, BUT: It's loud (they say the fan is quieter in models newer than mine) and the fan consumes a significant amount of electricity from the battery (they say the fan is more energy-efficient in newer models). If your battery's charge isn't high enough the heater won't start because it senses that there's not enough juice for the fan; I've had to start the truck to trick the furnace into thinking there's more juice than there is.

Because the forced-air furnace in mine is loud and consumes battery, I rely almost exclusively on a catalytic propane heater -- the Wave, by Olympian (other brands are available, too). It has no fan so is silent and consumes no electricity -- just propane. I have the Wave 6 model, which is larger than some people here get, but maybe I do more winter camping in cold places.
Catalytic heaters have some downsides: a small amount of venting is required for combustion-efficiency and safety (meaning you have to let a little cold air in and some warm air vents out), and without a fan the heat is not distributed around the cabin as well -- at least, not as quickly, since it's basically a radiant heat source -- things it's "shining on" get hot first.

Comfortable: I should say that for me, in the camper in winter, a "comfortable" temperature may be in the low 60s F or even the high 50s F, 'cause I'm comparing it to what it was like camping in the winter in a tent, and not comparing it to what I would call "comfortable" if I was at home in my house. But I could make it warmer if I ran my Wave 6 on a higher setting -- if I wanted to be home-comfortable.

That's my experience on "cold weather" camping in my pop-up camper.

(BTW: "pixiedust"?

)

 

[Walldiver]

I do not camp in the cold climates you do, but have camped in temps in the 40's and found that the soft sides are pretty drafty. I have a 2011 Hawk and have the Attwood furnace and it is a bit noisey ( learning to get use to it, does'nt wake me up as much as when I first started using it). I understand the Suburban furnaces are much more quiet but more expensive. I do plan on getting the artic pack later on when I retire ( hopefully a couple of years from now, do most of my camping during the summer).

 

[ski3pin]

Welcome pixiedust99! Mr. BC did a good job summarizing our experience also. We have a nice old polarguard quilt we use for an extra layer over our bedding when needed. When we are up that gets draped over the bed/cabover area and extends down covering the front inside/ slider window area. It makes a difference cutting down on cold spots. When you camp in the cold you learn where these spots are. Best of luck.

 

[Yukon]

Welcome Yukon campers!

My wife and I have done more Winter camping than Summer camping. We often camp in the snow. Probably the lowest temperatures we have done so far is about 8 degrees F in British Colombia. We made our own liner that velcro's on the top sides and provides nice extra insulation. The furnace works well but we usually don't run it all night. Thus, when we wake up in the morning the water faucet is frozen and there's frost on things. No big deal. Just a matter of what you are used to.

By the way. We spent time in the Yukon and LOVED it. I even have a Yukon license plate on the front of my truck just for fun (not registered). We were up there for two months in our Landrover and slept in a tent (before we got the 4-Wheel). Lots of great Kayaking.

If you are used to the cold weather, I don't think the 4-Wheel Camper will be a problem for you.

Good luck.

 

[riz]

As a skier, I camp primarily in the winter. I have the arctic pak, the 2000 stock heater and two deep cycle batteries. I can camp 4 to 6 nights running the heater on a fairly low setting without recharging. I've camped comfortably down to about -10f. It can get a bit frosty on the inside of the pop-up fabric, around the windows, and under the cabover mattress, but that's all part of the fun... right?

 

[Jon&Sue_DeArman]

Sue & I camp regularly in cold weather down to 0 degrees F. We each have 0 degree sleeping bags plus Sue pulls a down quilt over hers. We turn off the heater once we are snugged down and sometimes wake up to 0 degrees in the camper in the morning. I just reach over and flip the heater switch and in 10 minutes its 40 degrees. I get up & make coffee and in 5 more minutes its 60 degrees, then Sue gets up. We have the ArcticPak but do not use it. The biggest problem with FWC's is the condensation that occurs summer & winter. We have to wipe down the soft sides in the forward bed area most nights with a micro fiber cloth. Nothing stops condensation in weather like that since we cannot stop breathing. If I lived in Alaska & camped most nights in sub-freezing weather, I would probably install the ArcticPak; But compared to my Northface VE25, the FWC is the life of luxury.

 

[ski3pin]

<snip> But compared to my Northface VE25, the FWC is the life of luxury.

 

[norcalhawk]

Welcome to WTW, pixiedust!

I've used my FWC Hawk (2005) in outside temperatures as low as 0°F and frequently single-digit °F and with the addition of insulation for the soft-sides and with the heater running I was comfortable. The pop-up soft-sides aren't insulated, so they really need help.

Insulation: I use Reflectix (such as this), attached to the the soft-sides with Velcro, mating with the existing OEM Velcro strip at the top. Because this is semi-rigid I have to remove it when I drop the top, but the installation/removal takes only a couple of minutes.
OR you can get the FWC Arctic Pack if you don't mind spending the money. ski3pin did a great home-made version of the Arctic Pack.

Heater: The built-in forced-air furnace is a great way to heat up the camper quickly, BUT: It's loud (they say the fan is quieter in models newer than mine) and the fan consumes a significant amount of electricity from the battery (they say the fan is more energy-efficient in newer models). If your battery's charge isn't high enough the heater won't start because it senses that there's not enough juice for the fan; I've had to start the truck to trick the furnace into thinking there's more juice than there is.

Because the forced-air furnace in mine is loud and consumes battery, I rely almost exclusively on a catalytic propane heater -- the Wave, by Olympian (other brands are available, too). It has no fan so is silent and consumes no electricity -- just propane. I have the Wave 6 model, which is larger than some people here get, but maybe I do more winter camping in cold places.
Catalytic heaters have some downsides: a small amount of venting is required for combustion-efficiency and safety (meaning you have to let a little cold air in and some warm air vents out), and without a fan the heat is not distributed around the cabin as well -- at least, not as quickly, since it's basically a radiant heat source -- things it's "shining on" get hot first.

Comfortable: I should say that for me, in the camper in winter, a "comfortable" temperature may be in the low 60s F or even the high 50s F, 'cause I'm comparing it to what it was like camping in the winter in a tent, and not comparing it to what I would call "comfortable" if I was at home in my house. But I could make it warmer if I ran my Wave 6 on a higher setting -- if I wanted to be home-comfortable.

That's my experience on "cold weather" camping in my pop-up camper.

(BTW: "pixiedust"?

)


What about water in your tank etc. Does it ever freeze?

 

[MarkBC]

What about water in your tank etc. Does it ever freeze?

That is an excellent question, especially if the question includes the whole water system, beyond the tank.
Unfortunately, it's a question I have, too -- so unfortunately I don't have much of an answer.

OK: Back when my water pump still worked, so back when I actually used the camper's water system, I assumed that the system would freeze during cold-winter camping because I didn't keep it very warm in the camper because the furnace fan drew too much power and was too loud. During winter camping -- which I did/do in places where it can get down to single-digits-°F -- I carried water in a 5-gallon water carboy with a spigot to supply my water needs.
Then, maybe because I didn't drain the system properly before winter -- or maybe for a reason that has nothing to do with freezing -- my pump stopped pumping, and I haven't fixed it yet and always use a portable water carboy.

Kinda embarrassing to admit, but there it is.

 

[norcalhawk]

That is an excellent question, especially if the question includes the whole water system, beyond the tank.
Unfortunately, it's a question I have, too -- so unfortunately I don't have much of an answer.

OK: Back when my water pump still worked, so back when I actually used the camper's water system, I assumed that the system would freeze during cold-winter camping because I didn't keep it very warm in the camper because the furnace fan drew too much power and was too loud. During winter camping -- which I did/do in places where it can get down to single-digits-°F -- I carried water in a 5-gallon water carboy with a spigot to supply my water needs.
Then, maybe because I didn't drain the system properly before winter -- or maybe for a reason that has nothing to do with freezing -- my pump stopped pumping, and I haven't fixed it yet and always use a portable water carboy.

Kinda embarrassing to admit, but there it is.

Thank you anyway...If anybody knows or can give advise. I do camp in freezing temps, but this time I have my Hawk with water pump, tank, hot water/shower. If the tank has water in it and I used the water pump and sink to wash dishes the night before, how can I assure that there will be no freezing. What do others do from their experience. So far, I hear others say: furnace is left on at 40-50 degrees during the night, or some don't use their water sysem during freezing days (kept empty) and they carry water in a 5 gal jug for their water needs. Anything else?

 

[PeterV]

Thanks everyone for the information in these cold weather threads, I've enjoyed reading them!

I have some questions about the arctic pack:

- How much condensation is there between the fabric and the vinyl side? Is it easy to wipe it down (can you lift the arctic fabric, how is it attached at the bottom? I know there is velcro at the top, what about the bottom?)

- Is the Reflectix semi-rigid home-made kit warmer than the arctic pack? Since it actually has insulation properties itself..? I know it will be pain to take on & off (unlike the arctic pack that can be left there), but I'm wondering if there are significant warmth differences to justify it?

We found out that the Eagle is much colder than sleeping in a small 4-season tent, given the significantly large air volume, so looking at ways to improve the insulation (running the heater kills the battery too quickly otherwise).


PS. Does anyone have an Eagle arctic pack for sale that they are not using? Please PM me!

 

[ski3pin]

PS. Does anyone have an Eagle arctic pack for sale that they are not using? Please PM me!


This was posted back in Sept. Arctic Pack

 

[PeterV]

Oh, I emailed the person a few weeks ago, and they said it's sold. Thanks though

 

[WaltK]

On what weather you can camp in there is not a one size fits all answer. Not only do each of us have our temperature needs, but equipment choices vary a whole lot. Study your choices very carefully.

Those that say they would use the heater but it's too noisy, uses too much electricity, uses too much propane or so on, if you are using one of the standard heaters used, then there are better choices that can really improve the situation. Get outside of the box from way back on heaters. Look through the newer stuff. Or look through improving what you have. Even cleaning the inside of your existing heater will improve things. So will putting bug screens in it's air inlets and exhaust ports.

I don't really need as much heat as some are describing, the Eagle Shell I'm modifying will be used in the SE US, so not so hugely cold as the Yukon. Lowest temp I've seen in this area is right at zero F and that's rare. But at age 68 I cannot stand the cold I could in younger days out mountaineering. So no freezing things in the camper for me. And no mummy bags either! I used to winter camp with a poly sleeping bag and a sheet of black plastic in the mountains of the NW, been there, have the t-shirt! I did not buy the FWC Eagle to try and repeat that style outdoor camping, I've moved on to newer experiences in the American outback.

The heater I've chosen is the Propex HS2800, rated at just under 10,000 BTU. It does not use the inside for it's combustion, intake air and exhaust are outside through 1" ducts. Which in my design do not penetrate the aluminum siding but have a different route to the outside. The heated air is circulated inside through 3" ducts, and you can have more than one output. The setup I'm going with will have one full size adjustable direction main vent into the open cabin, plus a adjustable vent that will vent a little inside the storage spaces starting with the water tank and batteries but eventually also entering the main camper space. This vent can be set minimally to keep freezing of the equipment from being a problem. Air circulation is 85CFM at full output, which means it can mix the entire inside volume of the Eagle in about 4 minutes. It will use a gallon of propane in 10 hours of full output, meaning for me nearly a full week of propane onboard in winter. While running it's using max 1.9 amps, but with it's thermostat it's normally cycling, so less on average. That means on my house battery bank over 100 hours of full time run time if it's all that's using battery, and that's to the ideal limit of 50% discharged. It's a lot quieter than the older design heaters. Overall the entire unit fits in a much smaller space than the old style heaters, you could probably put in two of then in that space! It is quite effective. I used a similar heater in my 1974 Toyota Chinook pop top out in the stormy and wet Pacific NW long ago, year round use, so am familiar with what these heaters can do. That last one would fit in about the size of a shoebox, this one is a little bigger with more output.

Note as far as going with a cat heater, you usually have the combustion products to breathe with their risks. One of the major combustion products you will be fighting is condensation with a cat heater. And in addition most such units do some if not all of their electric and propane saving by having no circulating fan, which leaves a very limited part of the camper heated, and having to heat for much longer to reach desirable warmth through the camper. Or having to have a separate fan using electricity. You pay for the cheaper costs of such units. So no way I was going that way. I did use a small cat heater with the Leer shell that has been my camper for a very long time, that my Eagle is replacing. Having to provide outside air for safety made it very ineffective, I was heating the great outdoors too much and having to use way too much space on bedding. So I know what this is like.

As I'm modifying the Eagle I'm also able to add a little insulation here and there. Don't have the Arctic Pack, probably will build one as I can do so much cheaper and improve the design a little. I currently have the entire inside panel off the driver's side of the Eagle, to be able to fit appliances I needed to map the frame. That outside of aluminum with the heat conductive aluminum frame needs more of a heat break from the inside. As designed it penetrates the foam insulation with lots of heat leaks through the aluminum. Reflectix is providing a heat break barrier in some of mine without stealing much space. One advantage of a shell is it's easy to remove the walls inside.

 

[Funstini]

Thank you anyway...If anybody knows or can give advise. I do camp in freezing temps, but this time I have my Hawk with water pump, tank, hot water/shower. If the tank has water in it and I used the water pump and sink to wash dishes the night before, how can I assure that there will be no freezing. What do others do from their experience. So far, I hear others say: furnace is left on at 40-50 degrees during the night, or some don't use their water sysem during freezing days (kept empty) and they carry water in a 5 gal jug for their water needs. Anything else?



I also have done some cold weather camping with my Keystone and I am in the process of adding some kind of Arctic Pack to the camper. The coldest I have had the unit was 12 degrees in Death Valley N.P. of all places, it has been below 25 degrees numinous times. The only problem I have had with freezing is with the sink drain hose on the outside. I also use a Olympic catalytic heater. When I know it's going to be really cold at night I'll open up the cabinet doors under the sink and so far haven't had any freeze ups ........... but I know it's bound to happen eventually.

 

[norcalhawk]

I also have done some cold weather camping with my Keystone and I am in the process of adding some kind of Arctic Pack to the camper. The coldest I have had the unit was 12 degrees in Death Valley N.P. of all places, it has been below 25 degrees numinous times. The only problem I have had with freezing is with the sink drain hose on the outside. I also use a Olympic catalytic heater. When I know it's going to be really cold at night I'll open up the cabinet doors under the sink and so far haven't had any freeze ups ........... but I know it's bound to happen eventually.


Hello,

I took an idea from someone above regarding making an Artic Pak, but more on the econ. side. I used Reflextix insulation. I bought a roll (24"x25', or if your hardware store carry's it, you can have it cut to your personal needs). I have a 2012 Hawk...cut the Refextix insulation to the length of the "side"walls with a little extra at the corners and I didn't need to do any cutting for the height, because my extended softwall top is about 24"....perfecto. I cut out the window area(s), but leaving the top uncut. Then used Velcro tabs to hold the flap in place. I used self adhesive velcro with a little super clue for the window area's and to attach the Reflextix insulation to the already velcro (2") installed by FWC at the inside top of the soft wall. The full length of the Relextix insulation is held onto that 2" strip securely...there is nothing that needs to be attached to hold the bottom part of the insulation for it just hangs nicely at the bottom edge. In general, this insulation has helped cut down considerably on the cold air (draft) that comes through the soft shell part of the camper. So far so good. When not in use and to lower the top the reflextix must be removed (disconnected)...I then roll it up into a 24"x 6" roll and I'm on my way. Total cost ~$50.00. Happy Trails to all...MS

 

[Captm]

I know in the camper I'd be warm enough although my water hose is exposed to the elements. I have been looking at low voltage freeze protection for the fresh water hose. I have about a 6 foot run from my(cab mounted)tank to the water pump mounted in the camper then another four feet to the faucet. Haven't run the numbers yet to see what the draw on the batteries would be. Anyone else use this system?

http://www.heatline.com/kompensator.htm

Cheers and Merry Christmas

 

[RicoV]

Or, as I did, construct an exterior Reflectix 'arctic-pak' wrap that wards off cold or hot air before it can ever make it through the vinyl. This approach limits the possibility for moisture entrapment because the highest thermal contrast is shifted to the outside of the vinyl. Vents with velcro fasteners were added for the windows which allow shading, full open, full closed options. A little harder to put up the wrap in an exterior application, esp. in windy or stormy conditions, and a bit challenging for shorter folks, but with a step stool it can be accomplished effectively. A few pics below...

 

[MarkBC]

Or, as I did, construct an exterior Reflectix 'arctic-pak' wrap that wards off cold or hot air before it can ever make it through the vinyl. This approach limits the possibility for moisture entrapment because the highest thermal contrast is shifted to the outside of the vinyl. Vents with velcro fasteners were added for the windows which allow shading, full open, full closed options. A little harder to put up the wrap in an exterior application, esp. in windy or stormy conditions, and a bit challenging for shorter folks, but with a step stool it can be accomplished effectively. A few pics below...

Great job, RicoV, and thanks for sharing the photos.
As we've discussed offline a while ago, I had a similar concept -- based on the physics of why it's better to put the insulation outside. My plan was to use closed-cell foam rather than Reflectix...but I never actually did anything about it.

Have you had any trouble with it staying in place when it's windy? Can you provide details of how it's held in place? Or will that be covered in the patent application?

Very cool!