Thanks for that, Mark. The Reflectix wrap for our Grandby is stored as a 2' wide by 37' long roll which my wife and I then unroll, with me up on the steps in back and she walking around the truck guiding the other end. When it's positioned properly (closed vent panels aligned with the top windows), I take her end of the wrap in my right hand and snugly anchor it over the other end that's in my left hand (see previous pic of black velcro strips). At this stage it seems the wrap has the approximate tautness of the vinyl, and just stays in place on it's own. It's true we haven't yet experienced the full onslaught of a monster Pacific storm or an Arizona monsoon blaster with the wrap in place, but will report back after we do and let you all know how it held up (or didn't).
cold weather
- Thread starter pixiedust99
- Start date
Thanks for that, Mark. The Reflectix wrap for our Grandby is stored as a 2' wide by 37' long roll which my wife and I then unroll, with me up on the steps in back and she walking around the truck guiding the other end. When it's positioned properly (closed vent panels aligned with the top windows), I take her end of the wrap in my right hand and snugly anchor it over the other end that's in my left hand (see previous pic of black velcro strips). At this stage it seems the wrap has the approximate tautness of the vinyl, and just stays in place on it's own. It's true we haven't yet experienced the full onslaught of a monster Pacific storm or an Arizona monsoon blaster with the wrap in place, but will report back after we do and let you all know how it held up (or didn't).
After spending a week camping in cold-to-very-cold (low of -16°F one night) weather last week and putting up my Reflectix on the inside I'm even more intrigued with your exterior-insulation approach, Rico.
I see the potential downsides of the exterior-insulation approach -- mainly, how well will it stay in place in winds...but I also know that your approach eliminates downsides I've seen/experienced of mounting it on the inside.
Like, the insulation I mount on the inside doesn't cover the zones behind the front and rear roof-support panels. And with the insulation only attached to the Velcro at the top of the wall it can swing/sway away from the wall, allowing the cold air behind it to fall down into the camper. And when I put up and take down the insulation it fights whatever else I have in the way, on top of the counters, bed, etc. None of these issues are deal-breakers, of course -- I've been using Reflectix on the inside for a couple of years now...but they're annoyances.
And then, you can go back to the basic physics of putting the thermal gradient outside of the vinyl, so that the vinyl (theoretically, at least) remains relatively warm, warm enough to prevent condensation.
I think I'm gonna try this myself...Reflectix -- even a big roll -- is cheap, why not?
Thanks again for the inspiration.
After spending a week camping in cold-to-very-cold (low of -16°F one night) weather last week and putting up my Reflectix on the inside I'm even more intrigued with your exterior-insulation approach, Rico.
I see the potential downsides of the exterior-insulation approach -- mainly, how well will it stay in place in winds...but I also know that your approach eliminates downsides I've seen/experienced of mounting it on the inside.
Like, the insulation I mount on the inside doesn't cover the zones behind the front and rear roof-support panels. And with the insulation only attached to the Velcro at the top of the wall it can swing/sway away from the wall, allowing the cold air behind it to fall down into the camper. And when I put up and take down the insulation it fights whatever else I have in the way, on top of the counters, bed, etc. None of these issues are deal-breakers, of course -- I've been using Reflectix on the inside for a couple of years now...but they're annoyances.
And then, you can go back to the basic physics of putting the thermal gradient outside of the vinyl, so that the vinyl (theoretically, at least) remains relatively warm, warm enough to prevent condensation.
I think I'm gonna try this myself...Reflectix -- even a big roll -- is cheap, why not?
Thanks again for the inspiration.
takesiteasy
Senior Member
On our recent trip we used the reflectix on the inside between the arctic pac and the vinyl, under the mattress and over the windows. This worked fine to keep the camper warm, with the drawbacks noted by MarkBC. We did have some condensation as has been noted by everyone. The condensation problem was extreme while we were on the pacific coast road- which I will describe in a future trip report- due to the 100 percent humidity and dew point temperatures inside the camper.
During the trip we bought a roll of 24 inch reflectix to try on the outside. Unfortunately, I forgot that we made the vinyl sides taller than normal on our camper and the reflectix was not wide enough to reach to the aluminum top and bottom. As a result, there were big gaps where the wind could just run up the sides under the reflectix, eliminating any insulation value. That trial was short-lived. When we got home I returned the roll (Home Depot was great to take it back, even though I bought it in Washington). I am still thinking this approach is the way to go, but the reflectix needs to reach the aluminum both top and bottom to get a good seal. I think some strategically placed velcro would make the installation pretty easy. We will need to buy two 48 inch wide rolls and cut the width down. This will result in a lot of waste- making it a bit less affordable- so we are going to wait until we see how much winter camping we want to do. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing others' implementations.
During the trip we bought a roll of 24 inch reflectix to try on the outside. Unfortunately, I forgot that we made the vinyl sides taller than normal on our camper and the reflectix was not wide enough to reach to the aluminum top and bottom. As a result, there were big gaps where the wind could just run up the sides under the reflectix, eliminating any insulation value. That trial was short-lived. When we got home I returned the roll (Home Depot was great to take it back, even though I bought it in Washington). I am still thinking this approach is the way to go, but the reflectix needs to reach the aluminum both top and bottom to get a good seal. I think some strategically placed velcro would make the installation pretty easy. We will need to buy two 48 inch wide rolls and cut the width down. This will result in a lot of waste- making it a bit less affordable- so we are going to wait until we see how much winter camping we want to do. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing others' implementations.
With Reflectix on the outside, do you use the windows in the vinyl portion at all to ventilate, or just the louvered window, roof hatch, and turnbuckle vents?
I've been using Reflectix on the inside, but I'm really interested in minimizing condensation. If it fits perfectly on the outside, that's starting to sound pretty good.
Do you think it makes sense to cut holes/flaps in the Reflectix at the windows? I did that on mine, and I keep most of the windows closed with painters tape, but I like to have one of the windows open an inch or two while sleeping. I'm open to the possibility that this completely defeats the purpose, but I figured you still get some insulation even if air moves around a little between the vinyl and Reflectix. Presumably those air bubbles are somewhere between the outside and inside temperature.
I've been using Reflectix on the inside, but I'm really interested in minimizing condensation. If it fits perfectly on the outside, that's starting to sound pretty good.
Do you think it makes sense to cut holes/flaps in the Reflectix at the windows? I did that on mine, and I keep most of the windows closed with painters tape, but I like to have one of the windows open an inch or two while sleeping. I'm open to the possibility that this completely defeats the purpose, but I figured you still get some insulation even if air moves around a little between the vinyl and Reflectix. Presumably those air bubbles are somewhere between the outside and inside temperature.
I am also considering the reflectix on the outside, mainly to eliminate the condensation. But we usually cook inside and open the closest window a bit when doing so. So I am also interesred in an answer to camper101's question about whether the other sources of fresh air are enough.
With Reflectix on the outside, do you use the windows in the vinyl portion at all to ventilate, or just the louvered window, roof hatch, and turnbuckle vents? Do you think it makes sense to cut holes/flaps in the Reflectix at the windows?
Yes, you can see in the pics I posted above that an accordian flap was cut into the Reflectix at each of the four vinyl windows which allows air ingress/egress as needed. Each flap has velcro'd foldout options for closed, fully open, or angle-shaded (look closely). And while you may suffer a bit of barrier loss via the flap edges, I believe it's a minuscule amount since, like you guys, I put a high premium on having full control of airflow in the camper.
Yes, you can see in the pics I posted above that an accordian flap was cut into the Reflectix at each of the four vinyl windows which allows air ingress/egress as needed. Each flap has velcro'd foldout options for closed, fully open, or angle-shaded (look closely). And while you may suffer a bit of barrier loss via the flap edges, I believe it's a minuscule amount since, like you guys, I put a high premium on having full control of airflow in the camper.
ntsqd
Custom User Title
Is the norm for these campers a single thickness cloth of some sort? I ask because our Phoenix is double thickness vinyl impregnated cloth with a thin foam of some sort between them. I wish that the SN wasn't sun bleached because maybe then Phoenix could tell me something about this camper.
While installing the shunt for the TriMetric battery meter I noticed that the sole lower outside access door into the bed leaks air, badly. Since we don't use this door I'm going to find a way to seal it off. A couple screws and some 5200 ought to do it....
While installing the shunt for the TriMetric battery meter I noticed that the sole lower outside access door into the bed leaks air, badly. Since we don't use this door I'm going to find a way to seal it off. A couple screws and some 5200 ought to do it....
craig333
Riley's Human
I do believe FWC is actively looking at materials that would a better job of insulation. I'm sure its not easy finding the right fabric. Can't be too stiff, too expensive and so forth. I'll be relying on the heater this weekend.
WaltK
Advanced Member
Is the norm for these campers a single thickness cloth of some sort? I ask because our Phoenix is double thickness vinyl impregnated cloth with a thin foam of some sort between them. I wish that the SN wasn't sun bleached because maybe then Phoenix could tell me something about this camper.
While installing the shunt for the TriMetric battery meter I noticed that the sole lower outside access door into the bed leaks air, badly. Since we don't use this door I'm going to find a way to seal it off. A couple screws and some 5200 ought to do it....
Don't use 5200 unless you never ever want to get it open again or do any work on that area. 5200 is unnecessary in such a place, you are not trying to seal the underwater hull of a boat. 4200 will do the job and you will be able to get it off again. Even foam weatherproofing tape will do most all this stuff.
It's not a single thickness of cloth, it's a heavily coated material, about as thick as possible and still be able to fold properly when the top is down.
While installing the shunt for the TriMetric battery meter I noticed that the sole lower outside access door into the bed leaks air, badly. Since we don't use this door I'm going to find a way to seal it off. A couple screws and some 5200 ought to do it....
Don't use 5200 unless you never ever want to get it open again or do any work on that area. 5200 is unnecessary in such a place, you are not trying to seal the underwater hull of a boat. 4200 will do the job and you will be able to get it off again. Even foam weatherproofing tape will do most all this stuff.
It's not a single thickness of cloth, it's a heavily coated material, about as thick as possible and still be able to fold properly when the top is down.
ntsqd
Custom User Title
The material used on our Phoenix is not single layer. It does appear to be vinyl impregnated cloth on both side, but it is not as heavy as the similar cloth that my local marine canvas shop proposed using to make the cover for our TrailBlazer off-road tent trailer.
I've used 5200 in the past. Opening something sealed with it requires an industrial type heat gun. And some effort. I do not expect to ever need to open this hatch again, I'm not even sure why it's there. It is not for the tie-downs as there is no match in the other 3 corners and the Phoenix manual describes bolting thru the floor only. Foam tape is a losing proposition in my book. The foam rots in a few years and I have to do it again. I don't like having to redo something that should have stayed fixed.
I've used 5200 in the past. Opening something sealed with it requires an industrial type heat gun. And some effort. I do not expect to ever need to open this hatch again, I'm not even sure why it's there. It is not for the tie-downs as there is no match in the other 3 corners and the Phoenix manual describes bolting thru the floor only. Foam tape is a losing proposition in my book. The foam rots in a few years and I have to do it again. I don't like having to redo something that should have stayed fixed.
bmk
Member
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2012
- Messages
- 23
We have only had our Grandby for just a few months but live on a Mtn Pass, and have spent the night in our camper down to 10 F. I always keep water in our system, and am against adding any chemical stuff to the system. So far what I have done is run the furnace all night (we have a five month old baby) at 68 degrees. I leave the cabinet doors that have plumbing in them open, leave the cap off the outside drain, and put a piece of thick foam inside the door of the outside shower. The only weakness that I see in the system, and I wish Four Wheel campers would step up and offer a insulation package for the plumbing, is the drain line that runs in the floor from the tank to the rear of the camper. My solution for this to keep it from freezing has been to keep it on a slow drip at night when it is coldest out. This seems to have worked, initially I didm't do this, checked it one morning after a cold night and found it to be frozen. This is not a line that I would want to freeze as it is hidden and would probably be a pain to replace/fix.
As far as condensation issues, you're going to have them, we have the arctic pack, and it helps a lot with retaining heat, but we develop a lot of condensation on the wall material, as well as the ceiling where the roof members are located. The solution for us is; if it's sunny and we're staying put, let the radiant heat evaporate it off, or if it is cold and or we are picking up and moving we will just towel down the material. This is easy, the arctic pack has velcro, top and bottom, just pull back, wipe then replace. I just make sure to ventilate the camper good after long trips in our garage.
I think this is not the ideal winter camper, but, the ideal winter camper weighs three times as much. We really look forward to many winter trips with our setup.
Cheers!
As far as condensation issues, you're going to have them, we have the arctic pack, and it helps a lot with retaining heat, but we develop a lot of condensation on the wall material, as well as the ceiling where the roof members are located. The solution for us is; if it's sunny and we're staying put, let the radiant heat evaporate it off, or if it is cold and or we are picking up and moving we will just towel down the material. This is easy, the arctic pack has velcro, top and bottom, just pull back, wipe then replace. I just make sure to ventilate the camper good after long trips in our garage.
I think this is not the ideal winter camper, but, the ideal winter camper weighs three times as much. We really look forward to many winter trips with our setup.
Cheers!
PeterV
Advanced Member
I wanted to try this in my Eagle, but I too have the problem of the walls being too tall for the standard roll. The standard roll is 24" wide, and my pop-top side measures around 29" (or 28.5")... so a good 4-5" gap. I guess the Hawk/Grandby are taller altogether so the pop-top is less tall... just a FYI in case others are considering this on a newer Eagle (old models are I think not as tall?)
I wanted to try this in my Eagle, but I too have the problem of the walls being too tall for the standard roll. The standard roll is 24" wide, and my pop-top side measures around 29" (or 28.5")... so a good 4-5" gap. I guess the Hawk/Grandby are taller altogether so the pop-top is less tall... just a FYI in case others are considering this on a newer Eagle (old models are I think not as tall?)
FYI they have 48" Reflectix as well. I've got a new Eagle and made liners that are 29.5" tall (for the inside). Home Depot should have it. Maybe they'll deliver if you can't find it locally.
FYI they have 48" Reflectix as well. I've got a new Eagle and made liners that are 29.5" tall (for the inside). Home Depot should have it. Maybe they'll deliver if you can't find it locally.
PeterV
Advanced Member
Thanks camper101 - I saw that they have 48" reflectix, but the roll is twice the price and would result in lots of waste, I'm just not sure how much I want it 
Did you consider the outside vs inside option? How long did you cut the two pieces? I guess they don't go at the front/back of the camper at all, but the wood panels create some air space/insulation there, I suppose.
Did you attach it at the bottom at all, or just let it hang?
Have you noticed if it makes condensation worse? As long as you use the heater, it would probably dry things out reasonably well as long as it's not super cold (0F and below)? Sorry, I know, lots of questions, but I still haven't made up my mind on what to do
Did you consider the outside vs inside option? How long did you cut the two pieces? I guess they don't go at the front/back of the camper at all, but the wood panels create some air space/insulation there, I suppose.Did you attach it at the bottom at all, or just let it hang?
Have you noticed if it makes condensation worse? As long as you use the heater, it would probably dry things out reasonably well as long as it's not super cold (0F and below)? Sorry, I know, lots of questions, but I still haven't made up my mind on what to do
Thanks camper101 - I saw that they have 48" reflectix, but the roll is twice the price and would result in lots of waste, I'm just not sure how much I want it Did you consider the outside vs inside option? How long did you cut the two pieces? I guess they don't go at the front/back of the camper at all, but the wood panels create some air space/insulation there, I suppose.
Did you attach it at the bottom at all, or just let it hang?
Have you noticed if it makes condensation worse? As long as you use the heater, it would probably dry things out reasonably well as long as it's not super cold (0F and below)? Sorry, I know, lots of questions, but I still haven't made up my mind on what to do
I thought about outside, but figured most of the cold weather camping I'd do would be in a snowstorm (ideally) and wasn't sure how well that'd go. But now that I have a better appreciation for condensation, going with the outside option is more appealing. I guess there are tradeoffs either way: on the inside you have condensation and you have to keep stuff out of the way while you put it on and take it off, while on the outside you have to get on a ladder out in the weather and possibly uneven ground.
The rolls go all along the sides and tuck in behind the lifting mechanism. So there's an uninsulated part on each end. I don't attach to the bottom, but I made the pieces a little bit long so I can stuff them into the edge where the roof sits when the top is down. It stays in place pretty well and bows into the camper just a little (which I thought was fine because it creates a large airspace, but I don't know if it matters). I'm not sure, but I think if you just let it hang you'd have cold air running down into the camper.
I can't tell you if it helps condensation or not because I only camped one cold night without it and we were just figuring things out (our first night...). FYI I use a Wave 3 heater, which makes condensation worse, so you might not have as much of a problem with forced air.
I used the excess Reflectix to cover other parts of the camper: windows, down by your feet, and behind the couch.
Did you consider the outside vs inside option? How long did you cut the two pieces? I guess they don't go at the front/back of the camper at all, but the wood panels create some air space/insulation there, I suppose.Did you attach it at the bottom at all, or just let it hang?
Have you noticed if it makes condensation worse? As long as you use the heater, it would probably dry things out reasonably well as long as it's not super cold (0F and below)? Sorry, I know, lots of questions, but I still haven't made up my mind on what to do
I thought about outside, but figured most of the cold weather camping I'd do would be in a snowstorm (ideally) and wasn't sure how well that'd go. But now that I have a better appreciation for condensation, going with the outside option is more appealing. I guess there are tradeoffs either way: on the inside you have condensation and you have to keep stuff out of the way while you put it on and take it off, while on the outside you have to get on a ladder out in the weather and possibly uneven ground.
The rolls go all along the sides and tuck in behind the lifting mechanism. So there's an uninsulated part on each end. I don't attach to the bottom, but I made the pieces a little bit long so I can stuff them into the edge where the roof sits when the top is down. It stays in place pretty well and bows into the camper just a little (which I thought was fine because it creates a large airspace, but I don't know if it matters). I'm not sure, but I think if you just let it hang you'd have cold air running down into the camper.
I can't tell you if it helps condensation or not because I only camped one cold night without it and we were just figuring things out (our first night...). FYI I use a Wave 3 heater, which makes condensation worse, so you might not have as much of a problem with forced air.
I used the excess Reflectix to cover other parts of the camper: windows, down by your feet, and behind the couch.
OK I'm taking a crack at the exterior Reflectix. Seems like it'll help with condensation on bitter nights, and might keep out some noise (winter camping for me tends to be where there are plenty of other people around -- and front-end loaders -- because the forest roads are all closed).
RicoV if you're still watching this, can you please give me some pointers on how you made it work?
- How tight do you get the Reflectix wrap, especially around the corners? Seems like it needs to be pretty tight to stay in place and keep wind out.
- Do you think it's better to have the Reflectix a bit short or a bit tall?
I see in your picture (front view) that the Reflectix is above the black rubber seal that runs around the front of the camper. Mine doesn't do that, but it fits just about right around the rest of the camper (with maybe a tiny bit of bowing out). My suspicion is that I should shave off a bit more, but wanted to hear what you think. Did you shave off extra where the rubber seal goes around the front, or just leave it the same everywhere?
Overall, are you still happy with it and is it holding up well over time?
Thank you!
RicoV if you're still watching this, can you please give me some pointers on how you made it work?
- How tight do you get the Reflectix wrap, especially around the corners? Seems like it needs to be pretty tight to stay in place and keep wind out.
- Do you think it's better to have the Reflectix a bit short or a bit tall?
I see in your picture (front view) that the Reflectix is above the black rubber seal that runs around the front of the camper. Mine doesn't do that, but it fits just about right around the rest of the camper (with maybe a tiny bit of bowing out). My suspicion is that I should shave off a bit more, but wanted to hear what you think. Did you shave off extra where the rubber seal goes around the front, or just leave it the same everywhere?
Overall, are you still happy with it and is it holding up well over time?
Thank you!
Thanks for the nudge 101, somehow I'd missed the followups on this thread. I'd describe the tension on my exterior reflectix wrap as 'snug'. I use several 6" strips of industrial velcro on the overlap/underlap portion of the reflectix wrap so there's plenty of length to either cinch up or loosen as needed, and I position that portion just above the camper door so I can easily cinch it or make adjustments while standing on the scissor steps we use for camper entry. My standard rolls of 24" reflectix corresponded precisely (!) with the outside height of the vinyl exposure on our Grandby, so no adjustments to the reflectix roll width were necessary. I suppose if the fit wasn't just so for you, personally I'd probably opt for a narrower exposure, since a wider profile 'might' tend to be more susceptible to wind gust effects. On mine, that black hard-rubber seal seems to make a convenient resting surface for the bottom edge of the wrap. Short of being a total pain to contend with when it's windy out, I believe that the combo of the wrap and our puny SportCat heater is all me and she and the cat need to stay reasonably cozy down to 20 deg F or so, can't really speak for anything lower than that as we haven't tried. Good luck, and keep us posted on your experiences.
FYI I tried this out a few weeks ago. My initial impression was that the vinyl wall felt warmer than it has felt without the exterior wrap.
As far as condensation, the jury's still out. There was less condensation in the corners, but it was extremely windy overnight. So there was a lot more air than normal moving around, and that could have helped reduce condensation. Probably some air coming in through the closed windows even -- it was violently windy.
Anyway, it was a favorable test. I think the thing would work well on a cold, calm night, but it was lifting away from the vinyl when the wind blew. I really like having it tucked in near the roof (seems to me that it keeps heat in that way), but even that got blown out when the gusts came through.
A blowout above the window (I decided I'm only using this when it's bitter cold, so I probably won't have windows that open):
The windy "campsite":
Finally, if I ever get around to it, I'm thinking of using straps and velcro to attach the ends (instead of just using velcro on each end). When I put this up, it doesn't necessarily wrap as tight as I think it should be. And if I walk around the camper making it tighter, I can get the excess around to the back -- but then it's a pain to un-velcro it and re-velcro it tighter. The velcro is industrial strength stuff, and you lose any tightness you had when you un-velcro it. I think cheap webbing and buckles (attached to the Reflectix with velcro probably) would make that easier.
As far as condensation, the jury's still out. There was less condensation in the corners, but it was extremely windy overnight. So there was a lot more air than normal moving around, and that could have helped reduce condensation. Probably some air coming in through the closed windows even -- it was violently windy.
Anyway, it was a favorable test. I think the thing would work well on a cold, calm night, but it was lifting away from the vinyl when the wind blew. I really like having it tucked in near the roof (seems to me that it keeps heat in that way), but even that got blown out when the gusts came through.
A blowout above the window (I decided I'm only using this when it's bitter cold, so I probably won't have windows that open):
The windy "campsite":
Finally, if I ever get around to it, I'm thinking of using straps and velcro to attach the ends (instead of just using velcro on each end). When I put this up, it doesn't necessarily wrap as tight as I think it should be. And if I walk around the camper making it tighter, I can get the excess around to the back -- but then it's a pain to un-velcro it and re-velcro it tighter. The velcro is industrial strength stuff, and you lose any tightness you had when you un-velcro it. I think cheap webbing and buckles (attached to the Reflectix with velcro probably) would make that easier.
Thanks for the report 101, and for the webstraps/buckles idea, I'll have to consider something along that line, too. And I see you got to experience the sheer joy (!) of playing with your reflectix wrap in a nasty wind. Way too much fun.
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