Eastern Sierra Dispersed Camping Summit: Dealing with The Hordes

Maybe if we taught tread lightly in Elementary School some of it would stick for the next pandemic. I'm just glad there are still some dispersed spots out there if you know where to go.
 
An interesting read to me for a number of reasons. I personally like and think it’s important to read/get informed about issues and opinions concerning recreation and people’s use of the public domain. Including those places I don’t frequent or haven’t frequented in a long time. Thanks for sharing.
 
I read a comment on a news article this past summer. The commenter stated that he was not going to visit the Eastern Sierra anymore because we stress the importance of "tread lightly" principles. So yeah - that is the kind of person we dealt with last summer.

Yeah - I live here in Mono County and I filled my camper with Hefty bags full of garbage at least once a week from June - August. It was horribly sad and disgusting (picking up used toilet paper and diapers - I had a dedicated pair of work gloves since I could not get any disposables) I began communicating with various county offices in an attempt to get some assistance such as a dump waiver and more receptacles and/or more frequent pick-up. I got a lot of words. Worthless words. IMO the office of tourism needs to use the money they spend exclusively on advertising and use it to clean up after their guests (they need to take a lesson from All Terrain Campers - who needs advertising when you have a stellar product?) Yeah - I am not very popular with county government but of what use is getting old if you still have to care what other people think? And before anyone else starts in on "tourism pays for county services" they need to be prepared to answer some questions (they never have and probably never will but I won't stop asking)

In comparison to property taxes what amount of money do tourists put in the county coffers?

Why has the county (on behalf of business owners and possibly to provide services to residents - see question above) chosen to externalize many of the costs of tourism by forcing residents to either live with the horrifying amounts of garbage (and additional fire danger) clean it up and pay to dispose of it* or just stay home and watch television making pretend the land we love is not being trashed by people who don't seem to give a **** about anything but taking selfies and monetizing their youtube schtick?

It becomes abundantly clear that the quality of life of the residents of this county is not valued as highly as the money from the people who come and trash the place.

It was not just the garbage. They closed the beach at June Lake one Saturday because people were parking all over, getting in fist fights and driving ATVs on the crowded beach. That was at the exact same time I was being threatened by some "local"punks near Mono Lake - I probably could not have received any LEO assistance even if I had called and I believe the punks, who insisted I was a not a "local" had every intention of doing me harm if I dared to look at them the "wrong" way (another externalized cost of a tourist economy) Add to the problem that most of the land being used is Forest Service and their enforcement is spread real thin in Inyo. And then it came to light that Humboldt/Toiyabe NF had not budgeted for and hired any law enforcement personal in the Bridgeport district for going on two years now.

I wonder what the homes of these trashy people look like. I wonder if they ever intend to return to the location they have trashed (I think not) and if so do they give any thought to what happened to the **** they left behind? I wonder if we should stop picking up after them but that would mean loss of use of much of the county unless you don't mind sitting amongst used diapers and empty malt liquor cans. Some people insist that trashed places attract more trash and clean places inspire decency. Bull****. I have photos and dump receipts that say otherwise. I cleaned up the same places over and over and over again.

We need enforcement. We need money to fund it. We need to get those funds from those who benefit from tourism - including the tourists.. If someone can prove to me that I receive more services than are covered by my property tax and use fees I will happily pay my share but until then it pisses me off that I have to pick up after other people's guests (the county, on behalf of business owners, invites them) and pay to dispose of it* at the same time that I am unable to enjoy my home county because I am sick of picking up dirty toilet paper and can't find a place to park anyway. Thank goodness I am still physically able to backpack and there is still a "shoulder" season but really - what the hell has happened to basic human decency?

* Most of the trash was much greater in volume than weight so my loads rarely cost more than then minimum $5 tipping fee (250 pounds) But the scale at the nearby dump/transfer station was damaged by fire and we are now paying by the can/bag. Some of the loads I hauled last summer would now cost me $20-$30, likely more than $100/month. If the scale is not repaired I'll have to stop picking up trash or pay the cost or drive 60 miles round trip to the nearest dump with a scale, or see what happens when I deposit the bags of tourist trash on the doorstep of the county officer of tourism - but that would also be a long drive. To dispose of other people's ****y toilet paper.

Is this a rant? Sorry - not sorry. Calling the trash people pigs is an insult to pigs.

signed - Mono County Misanthrope
 
I can only hope the new administration funds the forest service at a level where they can fund law enforcement. Why people trash the environment in the first place? I don't know. My dad would have me pick up anything I tossed out the window. I took a work friend camping one time, he tossed a beer can out the window. I stopped the truck and made him pick it up. Did it make an impression? I hope so.

If I see an otherwise clean camp but it has some trash in the campfire I cut people some slack for that.
 
craig333 said:
If I see an otherwise clean camp but it has some trash in the campfire I cut people some slack for that.
Click to expand...
I often break up fire rings. They attract garbage and allow idiots to think a campfire is okay regardless of anything else. When my house is right over the ridge from the smoldering coals left behind I kinda take that a little personally.

But I have seen little flags that the FS (or someone) places in the middle of a ring to indicate a fire ban. I do leave fire rings alone when they are in a safe and reasonable location.

This is not a safe and reasonable location.
IMG_3500.JPG
 
i think the forest service should start charging annual recreation fees. and use this $ for maintenance, etc.
many of the major rivers in the west already follow this model, requiring passes, and charge fees (they also reduce entry at times). and this model works, and in my opinion has not reduced usage
i have used the deschutes river in oregon for years, and all boaters require a permit, and charge fees. they use the $ to fund boat ramp maintence, outhouses, garbage removal, etc. it works. my only complaint is they dont charge the hikers and bikers - but that may change.
go
 
California requires that you take a “test” before issuing annual fire permits...we all do that, right? I’ve watched it getting worse over the years and this past year has surpassed all previous combined. Unfortunately, I now endorse camping permits with a passed LNT test along with fees at each site/area. Communication, education, enforcement.
 
Mighty Dodge Ram said:
California requires that you take a “test” before issuing annual fire permits...we all do that, right? I’ve watched it getting worse over the years and this past year has surpassed all previous combined. Unfortunately, I now endorse camping permits with a passed LNT test along with fees at each site/area. Communication, education, enforcement.
Click to expand...
I encountered a couple last summer who claimed to have a permit which allowed them to have a campfire in a dispersed location because they had a portable fire pit. They didn't even have a shovel. Apparently you don't even have to be literate to pass that campfire "test".

I have also sighed the big sigh and decided that that there needs to be a dispersed LNT camping permit that requires education, a real live in person test and an annual license fee - like a hunting license. But none of this will be worth anything unless there is enforcement and substantial penalties for violation. Impound their camping gear. Can't get a license for a certain number of years. They can go to amusement parks instead. Or stay home, watch TV and ponder how their willful ignorance and self entitled attitude got them on the camping blacklist.

But it is still totally baffling to me that some people are so incredibly stupid/uncaring/sociopathic that they will build a campfire right up against a tree and/or leave uneaten food, ice chests, tables and chairs, tents, clothing and plain old garbage in their campsite when they go. Oh yeah - I almost forgot about the kiddie swimming pool. And the condoms. And the sanitary napkins (just picked up one of those along the river yesterday - oh yuuuukkkkk - )

I had (note the past tense) a friend. After three occasions of her digging a hole and cr**ing within sight of the the camper I told her I would not camp with her anymore. Her defense was "I forgot". I asked if she also dropped trou and dumped in her living room. She thought I was joking. She was wrong.
 
Need to be careful what one wishes for. Requiring a license to camp is a big step toward implementing camping limits: personal, annual, location, or even lifetime camping limits not related to clean, safe, responsible care of the land.

Paul
 
PaulT said:
Need to be careful what one wishes for. Requiring a license to camp is a big step toward implementing camping limits: personal, annual, location, or even lifetime camping limits not related to clean, safe, responsible care of the land.

Paul
Click to expand...
As I said - I sighed a big sigh when I concluded that some kind of administration may be necessary. To be very, very clear I have contemplated what kind of effect such a plan could have on my recreation but the lack of administration is having a tremendously adverse effect on my ability to camp AND the safety of my home from human caused wildfire. I think those of us who live right next to public land have a very valid reason to want more enforcement.

My camping became very limited last summer due to crowds (and more than a little apprehension after being harassed) so I am not sure how a license could make anything any worse. I have a hard time going so far as fearing "lifetime" limits (whatever that means) and I'm not sure what you mean by "personal" camping limits but there are already location, duration and annual limits which vary slightly between BLM and Forest Service land.

I have been required to get a wilderness permit to backpack for more than 40 years now and they are no longer free of cost. I have yet to experience any limits other than the rare occasion (once) when a walk in permit was not available for our trailhead of choice. Trip length is limited to 14 days with special permits available for thru-hikers.

And while I have not hunted since my husband passed I had to take a Hunter Safety Course and pay for an annual license and tags that are specific to location and season.

I guess I fail to see any reason why a license to camp would specifically become 1984-ish when there is more than a little precedent for requiring licenses to recreate (as also pointed out by goinoregon on the previous page)

After my 60 some odd years of life I have absolutely zero faith in the ability of the "shallow end of the gene pool" * to suddenly and spontaneously develop human decency and common sense. I suppose this can be filed under "why we can't have nice things".

*song by the Austin Lounge Lizards
 
I find your observations to be sharp and your opinions reasonable and rational. And I wholeheartedly agree that requiring permits without enforcement is an uphill battle, at best. I find that the individuals who want to backpack in permit-required wilderness areas and those who want to hunt and fish within legal limits are different sorts of individuals than the individuals my wife and I experienced the antics of in remote parts of Montana last summer. I don't know what it might take for a lot of those clowns to straighten up. The sad truth to this Registered Cynic, also 60-odd years of age, is that we have a justice system based on voluntary compliance. If and when the mass of chosen lawbreakers reaches critical mass, there aren't enough LEOs on the planet to stop them. More rules, permits, and fees might merely penalize the law abiding group and do little or nothing to stop the hordes.

Foy
 
John Adams, the second president of the United States, prophetically wrote in 1798:

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion….Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.


This is not a new concern.

Paul
 
A personal observation I'll add from this past spring and summer. It was the beginning of the Covid crisis. Many of our local Federal Land Management Agencies were not even out in the field. This decision was also based on the assumption that the public would stay home as recommended. Those that were, were told to not make contact with the public for personal safety in regards to Covid. There was absolutely no enforcement and issues massively spiraled out of control.

We all know what happened.
 
PaulT said:
John Adams, the second president of the United States, prophetically wrote in 1798:


We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion….Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.
This is not a new concern.

Paul
Click to expand...
Unfortunately John Adams was right. And what Foy said, "More rules, permits, and fees might merely penalize the law abiding group and do little or nothing to stop the hordes."

But doing nothing will do nothing to stop the hordes either.

I think it is worth adding that I believe the harassment I was subject to last summer was a bit of vigilante behavior. The locals were sick of the hordes - the reason they kept demanding to know where I lived. If nothing is done by the land managers to educate/regulate the idiots I suspect there will be more and more of this. I should not have to be afraid of driving an hour down the road to camp and kayak because I may be mistaken for an "outsider". Or let me try and put this a little more vividly - do you want to HAVE to carry a firearm and be ready to shoot a couple of dads in front of their kids because the dads are holding you hostage until you adequately cower and cry and try your best to say something they approve of? Yeah - I know this is a different issue - but not entirely.

I also want to clarify something else:

I DO NOT "wish" for layer after layer after layer of regulation and permits and fees.

I DO wish for basic human decency and common sense but it seems that ship has sailed.

edit to add: I said John Adams was right but I believe the "religious" aspect misses the nail -

to paraphrase something an atheist friend sent to me recently: we are not suffering from a lack of religion, we are suffering from a lack of empathy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads - WTW

ski3pin
Camp Like a Pro in the Eastern Sierra
SkyP
S
ski3pin
Nightmares With Camping Neighbors
2
Squatch
S
R
First trip shakedown - Owens Valley/western Nevada
Rafter C
R

New posts - WTW

Back
Top Bottom