Exactly Rob,a lot more fun and makes yummy food.buckland said:
Frank
Electric Pickup Truck
- Thread starter buckland
- Start date
Frank
I am certainly not a CPA, and I can't really claim to be knowledgable enough to discuss current incentives, subsidies and tax breaks. I do agree that the difference between tax credits, generally applicable tax deductions and industry specific tax deductions is very murky, and is way beyond what I care to invest in researching tax codes.
My previous point was that over the past century both the automotive industry and fossil fuel industry have been recipients of government largess through credits, tax breaks, loans etc which makes determining a level playing field very, very difficult. It does seem that the tide is turning for this government largess (at least in the US and Europe), but I don't think we can ignore the history here.
Without having to go back too far ,and just considering the US, we can see TARP provided ~$80 Billion in loans to the automotive industry in 2008 at an eventual cost of $11B to the taxpayers. The coal industry has received about $1.5B in credits for coal gasification, and the non-conventional fuels tax credit provided $10's of billions in credits to incentivize 'new' domestic gas production techniques like fracking and coal seam methane in the 70s - 10's. This is just what I am aware of in the recent past in the US, I am sure this is the tip of the iceberg, particularly when you consider other countries, that are still providing billions in direct subsidies to global oil and gas companies.
My previous point was that over the past century both the automotive industry and fossil fuel industry have been recipients of government largess through credits, tax breaks, loans etc which makes determining a level playing field very, very difficult. It does seem that the tide is turning for this government largess (at least in the US and Europe), but I don't think we can ignore the history here.
Without having to go back too far ,and just considering the US, we can see TARP provided ~$80 Billion in loans to the automotive industry in 2008 at an eventual cost of $11B to the taxpayers. The coal industry has received about $1.5B in credits for coal gasification, and the non-conventional fuels tax credit provided $10's of billions in credits to incentivize 'new' domestic gas production techniques like fracking and coal seam methane in the 70s - 10's. This is just what I am aware of in the recent past in the US, I am sure this is the tip of the iceberg, particularly when you consider other countries, that are still providing billions in direct subsidies to global oil and gas companies.
fuzzymarindave
Senior Member
ramblinChet said:
I’m truly interested in learning more. However just saying “these are the facts” does not make it so. Links to legitimate research would be most helpful.
OP
OP
What a hoot!... Makes me go back in time to elementary school when we got the "Weekly Reader" magazine... "by 1985 we well be zooming our way to work in flying cars!" That baby would cost as much as a house! But it sure looks like fun.
moveinon
Senior Member
I took advantage of the tax breaks and bought an EV. I have now driven a Tesla model 3 long range for over two years. I have owned 7 pickups, 11 RV’s, 7 vans, 3 sports cars, 2 SUVs, 17 other gas cars so have some diverse experience. The Tesla is clearly the fastest car I have ever owned with low end torque off the charts. It is absolutely quiet. With the low center of gravity it corners very similar to a true sports car. The first maintenance will be at over 120,000 miles except for tire rotation and wind shield wipers and washer fluid. Rarely use the brakes because of regenerative braking so expect brakes to last about that mileage also. The front of the car is wide open for extra locked storage because of no engine there. Costs me a little over $15.00 a month for home electricity and a little more for occasional recharges on the road for longer trips. It is the first car that I have owned where I can say in over 80,000 miles the only maintenance work has been to rotate tires and fill the washer fluid -not a single repair or warranty fix needed nor any of the other expensive work that I have always had to do by this point. Tesla rental cars in a LA rental fleet are regularly running over 500,000 miles and still dependable. I would love to have these benefits in my truck which sure do not exist in any ICE truck as well as the big EV battery to power the entire camper and get rid of propane, extra gas, camper batteries and solar panels entirely (and all of the weight and cost they add). I don’t cold camp or tow when camping so the only problem for me is the range, although I carry extra gas now because I don’t have the range in my existing truck. The Tesla safe range for my model 3 is about 300 miles-supposed to have max of 329 miles. If the camper was totally electric a EV truck battery would need more capacity than the model 3 battery and I would still, probably for a few trips need to carry a generator and gas for it because solar just does not cut it for charging a big capacity battery and charging stations are not located close to where I often take the truck camper. But if a well made truck like my Tesla hits the market with a 750 to 800 mile range with even a close competitive price my camper would be on it and I would be all in.
OP
OP
Well said.
I like your post moveinon. Great to hear from a real Tesla owner.
There are several Teslas in my home area.
I haven't gotten to talk to any though.
Thanks for the info.
Frank
There are several Teslas in my home area.
I haven't gotten to talk to any though.
Thanks for the info.
Frank
ckent323
Senior Member
moveinon,
If you have a reference for the Tesla rental car data please post a link. In particular, somthing that shows what company has a fleet of cars with 500,000 miles on them.
I did a quick search and could not find that data.
I have read that Tesla model S vehicles went into rental car service at MPG Car Rental in Venice and Exotic car rentals in 2013, as well as few in the Hertz exotic car rental fleet in 2019. But it is my impression that these rental fleets comprise a small number of Teslas.
I am aware that many of the large rental car companies (Avis, Hertz, National, Enterprise, etc) sell used rental cars after a year or two and many have pretty low miles (under 80,000)
https://www.enterprisecarsales.com/list/used-tesla/
I read that recently there were two large fleets of Tesla model 3s comprising 8,614 cars in Norway and 8,585 vehicles in the Netherlands delivered in 2019.
There are reports of issues in at least one model 3 European rental fleet.
https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-loses-model-3-order-rental-company-service-quality-issues/
I know 4 people who own Teslas, 3 have model S and one has a model 3. All seem happy with their cars but none of them have over 100,000 miles on their car.
If you have a reference for the Tesla rental car data please post a link. In particular, somthing that shows what company has a fleet of cars with 500,000 miles on them.
I did a quick search and could not find that data.
I have read that Tesla model S vehicles went into rental car service at MPG Car Rental in Venice and Exotic car rentals in 2013, as well as few in the Hertz exotic car rental fleet in 2019. But it is my impression that these rental fleets comprise a small number of Teslas.
I am aware that many of the large rental car companies (Avis, Hertz, National, Enterprise, etc) sell used rental cars after a year or two and many have pretty low miles (under 80,000)
https://www.enterprisecarsales.com/list/used-tesla/
I read that recently there were two large fleets of Tesla model 3s comprising 8,614 cars in Norway and 8,585 vehicles in the Netherlands delivered in 2019.
There are reports of issues in at least one model 3 European rental fleet.
https://electrek.co/2019/08/16/tesla-loses-model-3-order-rental-company-service-quality-issues/
I know 4 people who own Teslas, 3 have model S and one has a model 3. All seem happy with their cars but none of them have over 100,000 miles on their car.
ckent323
Senior Member
I just found the following article on a Tesla model s that has the most miles, 400,000, of any known Tesla. It is dated from July 2018.
https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/
As of Oct 2020 the highest miles for a Tesla is 750,000 but it has new batteries and motors too.
https://insideevs.com/news/449156/tesla-model-s-far-exceeds-one-million-miles/
and here is an article on the Tesloop fleet which as of Nov 2019 had several vehicles with over 300,000 miles.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-electric-cars-surpass-300000-miles-in-shuttle-service/#:~:text=The%20company's%20fleet%20of%20seven,crop%20up%20after%20hard%20use.
Craig
https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/
As of Oct 2020 the highest miles for a Tesla is 750,000 but it has new batteries and motors too.
https://insideevs.com/news/449156/tesla-model-s-far-exceeds-one-million-miles/
and here is an article on the Tesloop fleet which as of Nov 2019 had several vehicles with over 300,000 miles.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-electric-cars-surpass-300000-miles-in-shuttle-service/#:~:text=The%20company's%20fleet%20of%20seven,crop%20up%20after%20hard%20use.
Craig
I don't have the links that you are looking for, but from an engineering standpoint it makes total sense that an EV would have lower maintenance, and at least eventually, much higher reliability.
There are far fewer moving parts and wear items in an EV than in a ICE vehicle. Going off a WAG there must be 1/10 the number of moving parts compared to a vehicle with 4,6,8 cylinders, transmission, exhaust system, cooling etc. Furthermore none of those are exposed to exhaust gases, combustion byproducts, or under go near the thermal stresses in a combustion engine. There is far less heat to get rid of as the motors are far more efficient, and the brakes are rarely used, so heat and wear there is also much lower.
In some ways the engineering in EVs is not as mature as ICE vehicles that have been continuously under development for decades, so the absolute reliability numbers may not be there yet, but they surely will be better in time. The body and chassis are not much different, and electric motors are extremely mature tech, it is more a matter of integration.
There are far fewer moving parts and wear items in an EV than in a ICE vehicle. Going off a WAG there must be 1/10 the number of moving parts compared to a vehicle with 4,6,8 cylinders, transmission, exhaust system, cooling etc. Furthermore none of those are exposed to exhaust gases, combustion byproducts, or under go near the thermal stresses in a combustion engine. There is far less heat to get rid of as the motors are far more efficient, and the brakes are rarely used, so heat and wear there is also much lower.
In some ways the engineering in EVs is not as mature as ICE vehicles that have been continuously under development for decades, so the absolute reliability numbers may not be there yet, but they surely will be better in time. The body and chassis are not much different, and electric motors are extremely mature tech, it is more a matter of integration.
I would urge caution on reliability. The hype train on EVs is blowing its whistle too loud to get a good picture on what the downsides are. I have had to replace trucks for two reasons: electronic failures and body disintegration (Minnesota winters are hard on bodies).
My last two trucks:
1976 Nissan 4X4 - sold to a junk yard at 429,000 miles when I was looking at replacing a fuel pump control module for the third time. Body was shot; had replaced door hinges and latches at least twice. The junk yard is still using it for a parts getter with who knows how many miles on it. Only major repair was it spun a tail shaft bearing in the tranny.
1992 Dodge 1500 4X4 - sold it at 308,000 miles to a neighbor kid cheap because the body was rusting away, the passenger door was frozen shut, and the electric windows only kind of/sort of worked. Replaced the ECM once.
My point is that for me it was never the drive train that was the limiting factor on vehicle life; it was body and electronics that went bad. There is just not enough information on what happens to all those electronic drive train components when constantly subjected to our salty slush.
My last two trucks:
1976 Nissan 4X4 - sold to a junk yard at 429,000 miles when I was looking at replacing a fuel pump control module for the third time. Body was shot; had replaced door hinges and latches at least twice. The junk yard is still using it for a parts getter with who knows how many miles on it. Only major repair was it spun a tail shaft bearing in the tranny.
1992 Dodge 1500 4X4 - sold it at 308,000 miles to a neighbor kid cheap because the body was rusting away, the passenger door was frozen shut, and the electric windows only kind of/sort of worked. Replaced the ECM once.
My point is that for me it was never the drive train that was the limiting factor on vehicle life; it was body and electronics that went bad. There is just not enough information on what happens to all those electronic drive train components when constantly subjected to our salty slush.
ckent323
Senior Member
rando - No argument .
I am simply looking for facts and data. Too many years as a systems engineer in the Space business to rely on anecdotal evidence I guess.
;-)
I am simply looking for facts and data. Too many years as a systems engineer in the Space business to rely on anecdotal evidence I guess.
;-)
Mighty Dodge Ram
Senior Member
No experience with EV yet but I recognize it’s coming...and I think that’s good. In terms of range, EV is going through all the same growing pains ICEs did early in the last century. And while some are not fans of the visual background of wind turbines or solar farms, IMO it sure beats the smoke and stench of drilling platforms/pumps/refineries required to produce gas and diesel.
moveinon: $15/month to charge your Model 3? Sign me up! I send an average $500/month to Chevron for 2 vehicles which is less than I used to pay before I retired. As mentioned many times, range and the time required to recharge while traveling are the two issues for me. I have to believe that if we can put people on Mars in my lifetime we can figure this out. In the meantime, greatly improved fuel efficiency from ICEs and hybrids can bridge the gap.
moveinon: $15/month to charge your Model 3? Sign me up! I send an average $500/month to Chevron for 2 vehicles which is less than I used to pay before I retired. As mentioned many times, range and the time required to recharge while traveling are the two issues for me. I have to believe that if we can put people on Mars in my lifetime we can figure this out. In the meantime, greatly improved fuel efficiency from ICEs and hybrids can bridge the gap.
I think both Consumer Reports and AAA have looked into comparing repair costs between EVs and ICE and conclude the repair costs are about 1/2 - 2/3 for EVs. This does not necessarily mean increased reliability, as there is much less preventative maintenance (oil changes etc) for EVs. But even if the reliability is not there yet, from a systems engineering perspective it seems like it is inevitable. In terms of development, EVs are still toddlers in comparison to ICE being wizened geezers.ckent323 said:
I have no idea if this a reliable source, but if you look at the 'top 10 most common car repairs', none of them are applicable to EVs:
https://www.credit.com/blog/the-top-10-car-repairs-of-2015-141786/
moveinon
Senior Member
ckent323-I do not have the link for the article I read, but know it was a ‘tesloop fleet of 7 shuttle cars in California. Sorry about the reference to rental fleet, obviously a shuttle fleet is not the same thing. Because of owning one I get a lot of Tesla reading and I remember a lot of the articles but not which newsletter they came from. And I know all kinds of repair work needed to be done on those cars as well as battery degradation. They also had earlier model Teslas and a lot of early issues were fixed but was the only data I had seen on long mileage durability. Not a big group but regular drivers would never put that many miles on this quickly.
Mighty Dodge Ram- I know $15.00+ a month seams ridiculous for cost. But I am part of a experimental data collection initiative on EV’s by PGE (electric utility) and have an attached monitor that gives me electric usage, cost and charging frequency and time on a monthly basis (and reimburses me almost all of these electric costs for participation) so have much more accurate data than would be normal. So I guess I could really say my actual cost to drive the Tesla is free or a few pennies a month. Oregon is 44th in the nation for electricity cost which also helps -all that rain and those dams here is good for something I guess.
Rando- I agree about EV’s being in toddler time. My car regularly sends me emails which is a unique experience in itself. I have gotten ones from my car that say my range has been changed from 311 miles to 329 miles, that I have a new dog inside feature, that my security has been camera improved, or a brand new maintenance schedule and new autopilot features to have my car drive to me. With little history and these changes happening all of the time it is very difficult to get any kind of consistent historical evaluation of my car at all. My car is a single engine long range Model 3 -that car does not exist any more. By the time Consumer Reports gets information from readers/owners or does its own evaluation the car has substantially changed from what they evaluated. And at least Tesla changed a number of items before the Model 3 came out to fix areas where they were having to repair components of the earlier models so historical repair data does not fit later cars ether.
Mighty Dodge Ram- I know $15.00+ a month seams ridiculous for cost. But I am part of a experimental data collection initiative on EV’s by PGE (electric utility) and have an attached monitor that gives me electric usage, cost and charging frequency and time on a monthly basis (and reimburses me almost all of these electric costs for participation) so have much more accurate data than would be normal. So I guess I could really say my actual cost to drive the Tesla is free or a few pennies a month. Oregon is 44th in the nation for electricity cost which also helps -all that rain and those dams here is good for something I guess.
Rando- I agree about EV’s being in toddler time. My car regularly sends me emails which is a unique experience in itself. I have gotten ones from my car that say my range has been changed from 311 miles to 329 miles, that I have a new dog inside feature, that my security has been camera improved, or a brand new maintenance schedule and new autopilot features to have my car drive to me. With little history and these changes happening all of the time it is very difficult to get any kind of consistent historical evaluation of my car at all. My car is a single engine long range Model 3 -that car does not exist any more. By the time Consumer Reports gets information from readers/owners or does its own evaluation the car has substantially changed from what they evaluated. And at least Tesla changed a number of items before the Model 3 came out to fix areas where they were having to repair components of the earlier models so historical repair data does not fit later cars ether.
OP
OP
This is the latest from the Hydrogen push in Japan... one article ...certainly not the full picture.
I have to agree with the Japanese Hydrogen IMO is the way to go.
It also has been around as a fuel for a long time.
I think the city of Oakland,Ca. uses it to power it's bus service.
Frank
It also has been around as a fuel for a long time.
I think the city of Oakland,Ca. uses it to power it's bus service.
Frank
OP
OP
Just thought I'd cause a ruckus again..... here they come
https://www.motor1.com/news/508418/ford-f150-lightning-price-cheapest/
https://www.motor1.com/news/508418/ford-f150-lightning-price-cheapest/
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