Four wheel camper in bear country

[JaSAn]

Now Jim I will challenge that a .44 mag can be "hidden from sight".. I am also a fan of the .44 [which is not light for a reason] and of course many others!

I don't try to hide it, it is out of sight in a belt pouch. I carry cross draw so it is on my left side so it is not where gun shy hikers expect to see a gun carried. The addition of bear spray on my right hip completes the camouflage.

My revolver is 35 oz loaded.

I'm not a gun expert but I believe a .357 magnum will have deeper penetration and it's easier to shoot and more accurate than a .44 magnum.

The hottest load for a .357 handgun I could find is 200 gr. jacketed bullet loaded with 12.4 gr. of W296 giving a muzzle energy of ~790 ft.lbf.
Same weight bullet for .44 mag loaded with 26 gr of H110 yields 1448 ft.lbf of energy (almost double).
What I carry: 300 gr. jacketed bullet loaded with 19 gr. of N-110 = a muzzle energy of 1492 ft.lbf.

I go with the most energy I can deliver on target.

A charging bear needs to be hit in the head to stop it and its skull is thick. You need to hit it as hard as you can. I good body shot will kill a bear but not immediately and guess what it will be doing in the minutes it takes for it to bleed out. You want a non-expanding bullet for penetration (of that hard head).

The biggest determiner of what caliber to take is: what is the biggest gun I can shoot accurately? A .357 one is comfortable with is better than a .44 Mag you are scared to practice with. When under high stress you will repeat what you practice.

jim

 

[Wallowa]

I'm not a gun expert but I believe a .357 magnum will have deeper penetration and it's easier to shoot and more accurate than a .44 magnum.

OK...sounds funky, but depth of penetration is not the end game...size of wound cavity and foot/lbs of energy add to the stopping power...while the .357 mag is a very good firearm caliber it is not easy to control or 'easier to shoot' than a .44 mag..lots of nuances to the "which caliber is the best stopper" discussion..and so much also rests on the bullet design and internal ballistics [powder type and charge]..factor in that a bear can travel 44 feet/sec, your adrenaline storm and your ability to accurately hit this terrifying target...puts the use of firearm as a questionable means of stopping a bear at best...remember that most bear "charges" are bluff-charges...until you piss the bear off by shooting it.

Having said all this; today a neighbor who worked for years for USFS in Alaska's most dense brown/grizzly bear country gave me two articles to read on the effectiveness of bear spray on all species of bear [including Polar Bear] and the data was very convincing. In a single study [72 citations of a defensive use of spray against a bear in Alaska] "it stopped undesirable behavior more than 90% of the time" with only three minor wounds to the humans. While the % of stopped bears encounters was high [75-84%] when a firearm was used the humans still suffered 56% serious or fatal bear inflicted wounds. Remember most gun vs charging bears occurs with hunters in the bush or timber and at close ranges. Few hunters practice marksmanship inside 20 yards in heavy cover and most use scopes which are useless close up and personal with a bruin.

Bottom line for me; even if I could carry a large caliber rifle that would have a reasonable chance of stopping a bear in full charge [.338 or .375 range] and I have practiced accurately hitting a charging bear inside of 50 feet; I still intend to carry and if possible first use the spray. Yup, I am a convert.

In our Hawk we will have a large canister by door, so when I go outside at night [or anytime in bear country] to take a leak I might have a chance to stop something rude from happening..don't want to get "caught with my pants down"..

Last comment: Many, many more bears are killed by humans than humans are injured by bears.

Phil

Ps...Just saw the above post..actually the best advice of where to hit a bear to stop the charge is the front shoulder, not the head...bonus shoulder is a larger target, easier to penetrate and a three legged bear can't run.

 

[JaSAn]

Bottom line for me; even if I could carry a large caliber rifle that would have a reasonable chance of stopping a bear in full charge [.338 or .375 range] and I have practiced accurately hitting a charging bear inside of 50 feet; I still intend to carry and if possible first use the spray. Yup, I am a convert.

In our Hawk we will have a large canister by door, so when I go outside at night [or anytime in bear country] to take a leak I might have a chance to stop something rude from happening..don't want to get "caught with my pants down"..

Last comment: Many, many more bears are killed by humans than humans are injured by bears.

Phil

Ps...Just saw the above post..actually the best advice of where to hit a bear to stop the charge is the front shoulder, not the head...bonus shoulder is a larger target, easier to penetrate and a three legged bear can't run.

Are those articles something I could link to? I'd be interested in reading.

My biggest bitch with the advocates of bear spray is I have not found one yet that has spent more than 15 minutes to practice and none practiced with a headwind (where you are more likely to startle a bear). I have and I was the one incapacitated and only a light charge on target. I just don't think an irritant will stop mamma if she thinks her cubs are in danger.

If bear spray doesn't work I doubt that you will have a chance to go to 'Plan B'.

My 'beagle alarm' works too well for anything moving around the camper at night

Duno, I have seen more than 1 three-legged deer that gets around very well. I doubt that I could aim that well under that much stress, even with all the practice I have done. Aim for the large train coming at me and hope I hit something that stops it.

We are talking about an event that is very rare (you are 30 times more likely to be hit by lightning). Hiking with a beagle makes that event less likely; either the bear will smell us and leave or the beagle will smell the bear, raise a racket and the bear will leave.

jim

 

[shellback]

Did you folks hear about the young woman who saved herself from a Brown bear attack with a .25 Beretta? She and her boyfriend were hiking when the attack happened. One shot to the knee of her boyfriend, and she was able to casually walk away from danger.

 

[Wallowa]

Are those articles something I could link to? I'd be interested in reading.

jim

Sorry to not answer this before now...

#1 "Sept/Oct 2012", Bugle: "Survival Spray; Want to live through a bear attack? Add a chemical weapon to your arsenal"

and

#2 USFS, Pacific Northwest Forest and Range Experiment Station, General Technical Report PNW-152, March 1983 "Safety in Bear Country: Protective Measures and Bullet Performance at Short Range".

I have no idea of how to access these articles.

Forgot another interesting perhaps valuable fact: Most Grizzly/Brown Bear attacks are based on the "best defense is an offense' response while Black Bear attacks are most often predatory. Polar Bears; well not certain, but given the paucity of food available to them I would assume they are 100% predatory.


Phil

 

[smlobx]

This is one of those topics that can go on forever and never be completely resolved, which is fine as I don't believe there is one single answer for all applications.

I do, however, believe that we can agree that whatever you decide to carry with you you should be proficient in its use.

The issue for me, and I assume most of us that drive through Canada, is that we are severely limited as to what firearm we can take across the border. My solution to that problem will be to carry a 12 gauge pump action shotgun. Our gun club recently conducted a group buy on a great basic 12 gauge with a 18.5" barrel. Given that any self defense shots should be at fairly close range I think it's the perfect option. But as I said above there is no one right answer.

To fan the flames of controversy here is a recent article about an Alaskan Guide that killed a brown bear with a 9mm pistol! Notice the ammunition he used...

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/alaska-man-kills-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/

 

[PaulT]

1983 report here (with some annoyance in negotiating the text)
https://books.google.com/books?id=3UAJLwn8wkkC&pg=PT516&lpg=PT516&dq=usfs+1983+pnw-152&source=bl&ots=0MGEwa7pVH&sig=g4nvJgJoxKqxu80aphEygYqzMrw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjum6ah2PDTAhVD2mMKHS7SAGUQ6AEIMDAH#v=onepage&q&f=true

Paul

 

[nikonron]

To me there is just too much fear and worry here, much of what I don't have. Common sense and just enjoy your time in the wilds. People really need to get over there fears, be it bears, spiders, snakes or the very worst one, "man". Get out there and have a good time. People just get too much wound up in there heads. And if you can't handle it, stay home. That was just 2 cents worth. Ron

 

[Wallowa]

1983 report here (with some annoyance in negotiating the text)
https://books.google.com/books?id=3UAJLwn8wkkC&pg=PT516&lpg=PT516&dq=usfs+1983+pnw-152&source=bl&ots=0MGEwa7pVH&sig=g4nvJgJoxKqxu80aphEygYqzMrw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjum6ah2PDTAhVD2mMKHS7SAGUQ6AEIMDAH#v=onepage&q&f=true

Paul

Thanks Paul...I have that book [287 pages] in my library and read it decades ago....Herrero is referenced in the 2012 Bugle article. Read the back story about "Growly' and the start of bear spray.....

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/history_of_innovation/2014/06/the_grizzly_history_of_bear_pepper_sprays.html

No need to fear bears, but knowledge of their behavior and common sense ultimately is what has the highest probability of keeping you safe....same as it would in any large city...

Phil

 

[klahanie]

^ I like the inflatable bear monster in that article. I'll guess that cell Growly was sentenced to was the bear jail in Churchill where btw the park escorts carry firearms and spray (and yeah, I'd imagine polar bears attacks 100% predatory would be a good bet).

Anyhoo not here to discuss guns ... nooo, nooo ... just want to point out the reference in the article to illegality of carrying spray in an aircraft. Accidental discharge in a helicopter cab for eg = likely death. Not really a good idea to carry it unprotected in a vehicle cab either.

Yep, one more thing to be worried about.

 

[The Unshaven]

I've considered making a couple of deterrent type items to keep bears out or away from my camper when parked. Something akin to bear boards, i.e. Piece of plywood with a bunch of nails in it. They get set them in front of doors and windows to keep the bear from being able get at them. Only concern is that they could cause injury to critters and people besides being a pita to transport. But they are effective, i have used at my cabin and the tracks have always been all around, not on, the boards. Bears are smart and know what will hurt. My other idea is s mesh made out of razor wire that could be hung over door and windows on camper. Dunno how to make that work on truck yet. Have used this method on cabin before too and found bear hair in them but no blood and more important, no attempted break ins.

 

[ckent323]

Unshaven, et al,

Over the past 19 years my company has worked with Bear professionals in the National Park Service in California, Washington and Montana testing Bear resistant food storage designs for backpackers. I have personally done tests with Park Service Experts with Black Bears and Grizzly Bears.

While our work has been primarily directed towards Backpackers we have also supplied kayakers, horse packers as well as fishermen and hunters (flying into remote locations such as the North Slope of Alaska) with Bear resistant containers.

The main locations that have had consistent Bear problems in the lower 48 are Yosemite, Sequoia, Kings Canyon, Yellowstone, Olympic, Glacier, North Cascades and Smoky Mountain National Parks. This is primarily due to the very large number of visitors and a long history of bad food handling and storage practices, until relatively recently, That led to Bears habituated the humans and their sloppy food handling and storage practices when camping and Bears becoming sufficiently emboldened to overcome their fear of humans and break into vehicles and other things like cabins..

To be sure there are problems in some National Forest areas as well, but they are also easily traced to improper food storage practices and habituation of some Bears.

Please be aware that the incidence of Bear break-ins is very small relative to the total number of visitors and campers. However, the damage from a Bear break-in can be expensive as well as very messy not to mention it would ruin a trip.

See: https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm

You are probably more likely to hit a Bear with your vehicle than have your vehicle broken into by a Bear (particularly if you a using good food storage practices):

See: https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearfacts.htm


Most of the time the problems can be traced to poor food storage practices. If you keep all food even anything that looks like food or has a pleasant odor, including candy wrappers, used gum and trash, out of sight (from any window) and in a closed container to minimize any odors you should not have a problem.


I have lived in California, Colorado and Alaska. Over the past 50 years have backpacked and camped (tent, car, RV) extensively in all of the Western States as well as Virginia, Alaska and South Western Canada (Canadian Rockies). I have encountered perhaps a half dozen Bears in all of my literally hundreds of backpacking and camping trips and not once have I ever had a problem.

I am not a proponent of campers carrying firearms for Bear protection as I believe that there are effective methods to minimize the chances of having a problem with a Bear (as thousands of campers demonstrate everyday). Never-the-less, as of Feb 2010 firearms are allowed in most National Parks (where most of the problems happen) but may be prohibited from some facilities and buildings and concealed carry is not allowed. In all events the person in possession of a firearm must comply with all federal, state, and local laws regarding firearms.

There are lots of people claiming to have "knowledge" but is is very hard to sort out the real experts from those who are not so much. I have encountered many psuedo-experts in my 19 years in the Bear Resistant container business. Caveat emptor!

Therefore my best advice is to seek out information from the recognized experts at the places you visit. The National Park service, National Forrest Service, Fish and Wildlife Service and State Forest Services all have professional Bear biologists on staff who help draft guidelines and rules specific to each particular area or adopt general guidelines as they feel appropriate.

Use their websites and if necessary call them. You will find that they are happy to help.

Based on my experience inventing (I have a patent on my device) and developing a Bear Resistant container I can tell you first hand that unless you have the experience from the Experts whatever protection device you come up will likely have a lower chance of success and utility than the things the experts I mentioned will suggest. These professionals do this stuff everyday for a living so I recommend you read what they suggest and ask questions of them and listen to them.

Store your food properly and keep a clean camp.

Regards,

Craig

 

[nikonron]

I carry a handgun, but not for bears. I believe if a firearm is used for bears it should only be used as a noise maker. I have bear spray if needed and wouldn't hesitate to use that . Even a curious bear can have a dose before he gets to brave. Teach them to stay away from humans. I respect them and we may need to teach them to respect us.
Without harm. Ron

 

[buckland]

Right on Craig.... experts are who I want to listen to...bingo

 

[N'kwala]

Thanks for a well-reasoned response, Craig. Bears and campers alike should appreciate your response.

 

[rltports]

Craig, so I have to ask, which bear canister do you prefer?

 

[Jon&Sue_DeArman]

Keep in the back of your mind that Experts tell you to bang 2 pots together to stop charging bears; However, when they are doing their research in the back-country, there is usually someone along with a 7mm magnum as backup. What is good for the flock of Ganders is not always good for the Goose.

 

[ski3pin]

Craig, so I have to ask, which bear canister do you prefer?

I believe Craig would answer with this..........................................

http://www.wild-ideas.net/

 

[bike4mee]

I can't imagine a black bear trying to break into your camper while you are in it. Having lived in bear country all my life and many bear encounters, black bears are opportunists. They look for easy food. To break into your camper while you are in it is a real long shot. But, out hiking,parked on a remote location with the smell of food inside may be just too tempting. They can tear a log apart in seconds to get insect grubs. Your camper door is childs play.
Keep food out of you camper if you have to leave it for days. I'm more worried about porqupine's chewing up my hoses and tires while I'm away. This happens all the time at trail heads
Sleep well you really are OK

 

[ski3pin]

<snip>
I'm more worried about porqupine's chewing up my hoses and tires while I'm away. This happens all the time at trail heads
Sleep well you really are OK

Marmots - whistle pigs - and other little critters around these parts.