Four Wheel vs Hallmark

[backcountrydad]

Howdy folks, I'm new to WTW but appreciate all the collective wisdom I've been reading in the various forums.

I'm looking to buy my first pop-up cab-over and am narrowing the search down to FWC and Hallmark. Seems easier to find used FWC's than Hallmarks (I could be wrong), and the thought of putting $20k+ on the table for a new Hallmark is a tough pill to swallow, even though the Hallmarks seem to be a bit better made and roomier inside.

So I'm posting to the FWC forum in hopes of receiving some input on why y'all chose an FWC over a Hallmark. For instance, the fact that the cab-over needs to be pulled out to form a Queen bed--even on the Grandby--seems suboptimal vs. the Hallmark EXC where the cab-over is already a full Queen--whether in the standard configuration or the North-South configuration. So what are the selling points of the FWC vs the Hallmark that convinced you to choose an FWC.

I don't mean to be inciting any riots. Just looking for some honest feedback to help with my buying decision.

Thanks in advance.

 

[kmcintyre]

You'll most likely get a lot of opinions but my take it depends on what you are doing with the camper. If you plan on doing some off pavement exploring/camping/etc. the FWC or ATC is hard to beat. The key things I think you need to look at are the underlying structural components. Wood doesn't hold up well to the flexing that campers take over time.

I see a lot more FWC/ATC campers in the backcountry than I do Hallmark for what that's worth and for me, that's a sign of a quality camper. I've been to the ATC factory twice and seen the campers being made and the customer service they provide is unmatched and since I own an ATC camper, you can figure out what I decided on.

If you look at resale too, you can see FWC/ATC campers hold their value and sell quickly on the used camper market. That's because they are in high demand and hold up. Mine is about 15 years old and going strong.

 

[longhorn1]

I spent 2 years researching Outfitter, Hallmark, ATC, and FWC. My 1st Choice would have been Hallmark, but fully loaded the cost came close to $40K. That eliminated Hallmark. I finally settled for a FWC Grandby for my F-250 longbed (8'). You need to base your selection on how you plan on using your camper and what you can spend. If you plan on doing a lot of back road driving the lighter FWC and ATC are better suited in my opinion. I bought the FWC over the ATC because of the dealer network, with the Wisconsin dealer within easy driving distance and due to some more modern design features. However with that said ATC will do more custom work. I paid around $25K for a loaded camper. The pull out bed is not an inconvenience by any means, just gives more space with the slide in.

 

[Happyjax]

Hello Backcountrydad and welcome to WTW

I have also been researching campers and have been following this wonderful site and others for a couple years.
I have also considered FWC/ATC and Hallmark and my take on it is they are both very good campers but one is a bit too spartan for me and the other very expensive.....

I have recently been considering Bundutec (there are a couple threads on that) Alaskan and Northstar. I am still trying to fit a pop up into my choice because it is a better off road choice but hard sides do have advantages....

These are all wood framed campers and while proponents of aluminum will give reasons why they prefer it I like wood better. It is warmer, it is a bit heavier but not a problem in non-slide campers (IMHO). There are 60 year old Alaskans still in use that have been everywhere so wood is quite adequate for off road use, plus I can repair wood damage but can not fix a broken weld without taking the camper somewhere and welds do break.....

No matter what choice you end up with you will find tons of knowledge and help here and so much experience that some of these folks have done things I may never get to try Good luck in your hunting and I hope you find the perfect camper!

 

[iowahiker]

We purchased our FWC Granby instead of a Hallmark because the Granby is lower, narrower, and lighter while having a better two bed floor plan, the roll-over-couch, since we did not want to convert a dinette to a bed (been there, done that, not desirable). Hallmarks can get very heavy and we saw 3/4 ton trucks sagging a lot with a Hallmark while our Granby rides perfectly on our heavy duty 1/2 ton. Our 1/2 ton gets 2-3 mpg's better than a 3/4 ton gasoline while we did not want a diesel which can get very heavy. We would consider a Hallmark if we dispersed camp or boon dock frequently since high trim Hallmark models come with black water tanks (and the resulting height, weight and cost) and put that heavier camper on a 1 ton.

 

[ski3pin]

backcountrydad, welcome to Wander the West!

The best camper is the one you and your family are comfortable in and that makes you get out and use it. Hallmarks, from what I have seen from watching used sales for many years, sell quickly and hold value similar to FWC and ATC.

If creature comforts and the ease of getting bedding ready are important to you and your family, go with it.

I have seen many older Hallmarks out being used, so seat of the pants observation is that they are holding up and not falling apart. I suspect the owners are also keeping up on care and maintenance.

History is important here - this website was put together by a young man who started out with a FWC. He later had a custom ATC built for him. Trip reports and discussions centered and grew around that community. What would WTW look like if he had started with a different brand camper? I suspect it would be just as enthusiastic and informative. The focus may be a little different.

There are several good campers out there. Look at them all. Spent some real time in them. Pretend to cook. Move around and past one another in the limited space. Sit for a good period of time - as if you were riding out a storm or long cold night - and judge your comfort.

The main thing - make the search fun. It's part of the journey.

To answer your question, our needs were for a tiny light weight camper that we could carry on our small truck. We travel small rough roads that lead to places we want to explore. Our comfort needs are important but minimal. We travel light and resist the temptation to pile on more gear. Our ATC camper fits our needs perfectly and we love it.

Best of luck with your search and here's to years of happy camping for you and your family.

 

[Bad Habit]

It really comes down to how and where you're going to use it, and how much you're willing to spend to do those things. As others have said, the Hallmarks are more substantial, a little wider, taller, and heavier. They provide for more storage (which then compounds the heavier, ask me how I know...). They tend to be more built out from the factory, the base models seem to be outfitted with a lot of items that are considered options (if even available) from other manufacturers. Because they are built to order, you can easily make changes that refine it to what you're looking for and how you want it. At a premium cost of course. When I did my calculations, it really wasn't that much more with the options I configured.

I believe because of the composite construction, they seem to have less condensation problems. But also because of that construction, I would assume any major damage would be difficult to repair.

We looked at the various different manufacturers, toured a couple of factories and decided for us, the extra expense of the Hallmark was justified. I have a diesel 1 ton, so that minimized the weight concern (they are ALL heavier than the provided specs and literature state). It's not like that 1 ton is light and nimble, so the advantage of the FWC or ATC was minimized.

There are times when I do wish I had a smaller lighter camper, but that's true of the truck too. I think it's less limiting though than I feel it is, it's just a matter of getting that comfort level to push it a little more than I do.

Understand what how you're going to use it, that's the key to it all. From there you can decide which fills your needs better and whether the cost is justified. What ever you decide, use it - a lot

(We're the first set of pictures on the Hallmark home page banner)

 

[rotti]

As others have said, the Hallmarks are more substantial, a little wider, taller, and heavier.

And that was the deal breaker for me.

My FWC is on full time and the truck is my daily driver, as such the rig must fit in my garage. The FWC just barely fits and the Hallmark wasn't even close with its taller cab over design.

 

[sourdough]

I had a minimalist optioned Hawk shell for awhile. It never seemed to effect how far down the road my truck could go. I enjoyed the Hawk but my wife wanted more creature comforts. A FWC, even well optioned is the best for getting back into the boonies. Lighter, will stay together longer and purpose built to get the job done. A Hallmark is heavier with more creature comforts, has a higher quality finished feel but less off-road worthy IMO. Think of it as a more traditional hard sided slide-in camper but with a pop top.
My wife and I toured the Hallmark factory with the owner. My wife was sold on the Hallmark because of the luxury feel. I concided to Hallmarks luxury over FWC’s back road prowess. I would tow a Jeep for exploring and my wife would have her comforts. We decided to order one after we got a 2017 1 ton dually truck. While studing the 2017 trucks back in Oct.,’16, a used 2013 Tiger CX with 341 miles came on market. Considering a Hallmark/truck and a Tiger Cx for the same price, was a no brainer for me. I really am liking the CX and saving for a 2018 Wrangler.
But if it was just me, a FWC was the way to go.

 

[craig333]

I read about the people sopping up condensation with a towel and yet, under the worst conditions I've never had to do that. Never had condensation under the bed. Run the heater for a bit and my camper dries out nicely (should have done that before leaving Grass Valley). Keep in mind the condensation issue isn't the same for all people.

 

[Squatch]

backcountrydad, welcome to Wander the West!

There are several good campers out there. Look at them all. Spent some real time in them. Pretend to cook. Move around and past one another in the limited space. Sit for a good period of time - as if you were riding out a storm or long cold night - and judge your comfort.

The main thing - make the search fun. It's part of the journey.

This is the best advice you will get. I call it "Playing Vroom, Vroom."

I've built several cars, trucks, boats from junkers into new vehicles just for me. I spend a lot of time sitting in the drivers seat like a little kid going (vroom vroom). Reaching for controls ect. Does the hand fall on the control with your eyes closed? Do you have to look for what you need? Is this really in a comfortable position? What is involved in going to the bathroom in the middle of the night? This is the important stuff a lot of folks don't think about when overwhelmed by choices.

For me this all goes back to a silly hippy VW repair manual back in the day. In the section on buying a used car He suggests sitting in the car by yourself for a while and checking to see if your Karma aligns with the cars. Sounds silly but I've never forgotten that. It's amazing the things you kind find out in a few minutes of just spending some time without a salesman around. Little thing that annoy can be a real deal breaker over the long haul. Enjoy doing your homework.

One other important question that is asked a lot on Expedition Portal. Do you intend to live inside the vehicle or outside near it most of the time. Answer this and you're 1/2 way there.

 

[backcountrydad]

Howdy folks,

Really, really appreciate all the helpful advice. I halfway expected to be blown up in this forum for implying that a FWC might not be the ideal choice. So thanks for all the even-handed, helpful responses. The gist as I'm reading it seems to be that FWC is better geared toward off-road whereas Hallmark includes more comfort-friendly features. Also really like the suggestions to spend time in various rigs imagining life in there.

Question on weight, though: the Grandby 8' base weight is 1,095 pounds, and the Hallmark EXC 8' also appears to be 1,095 lbs (before options). Does the Hallmark end up being heavier with the same set of options? Seems like they're awfully close in weight.

Some additional background on me since I'd rather be doing this than working....

Family of four, with two kiddos (currently 9 and 5) who we homeschool. I'm a climber, skier, backpacker, free diver, anything-outsider-er., and as a family we've been car campers since my first was 2. My wife loves the outdoors but needs to be comfortable, otherwise she doesn't sleep which means my 'vacation' becomes her 'hell.' Hence the move from tent camping to a cab-over.

That said, she'll happily be cooking, eating, and showering outside. The camper will really be for sleeping, food/water storage (fresh veggies are highly valued in our family), and the porta potty.

In terms of use cases: everything from simple state park campground camping, to off-road excursions into the desert, to extended wander trips (prob 2-3 weeks) as part of the homeschool curriculum.

Oh, and our chariot is a 1/2 ton Silverado, 4WD.

We tend to be the types who 'do it right the first time' which often means spending money upfront to get better quality. However, in this instance, given other financial obligations, I'm thinking it makes sense to get into this lifestyle for $10k or less, if possible, confirm it works for the family, and invest in something new/higher quality (more creature comforts) down the road.

Any further input is of course welcome, but this has already been a huge help.

Thanks all!

 

[Squatch]

I come from a backpacking canoe camping background. I tend to view my Eagle shell as a hardside tent that happens to have a stove, furnace, fridge and a place to sit.

I tend to the small and light both in the Camper and truck. FWC, ATC likely will be the lightest. But even these get heavy quick with people and gear. 4 people and gear will be heavy and tight in a truck camper. Even with a FWC you are really pushing the envelope with a 1/2 ton. The total weight will surprise you how fast it adds up. I think you can expect that to be even more so with a more optioned style of camper. I think it would be wise to be open to more truck and possibly adding a trailer. 4 people and gear is a lot of folks inside the bed of a truck. Put 4 chairs in the back of your truck and have the whole family sit there for a while and see how roomy it feels. Now think about having walls. A couple of long rainy days can shrink a camper real quick.

 

[moveinon]

If you have not previously spent much time in a truck camper one good way to analyze what you might want and need is to rent one for a week and see. There are not a lot of places that rent truck campers, but there are some. I have had multiple models of almost every type of camper, trailer, and motor home over the last 40 years so had a good idea of how I would use it and what I wanted inside. Once you look at how you want to use it you will narrow the choices a lot. We go into the backcountry about 75% of the time camping so that meant an aluminum frame pop up camper with rear ground clearance and solar. I wanted to park it in a garage on the truck and store for the winter in a garage so that restricted height. My wife does not like to go outside at night so there needed to be room for a porta potty. I wanted it to work on a Tacoma with only suspension mods. which limited weight. And last, I wanted it to be under $16,000 used which cut out some really nice but expensive campers. This left me with three choices, FWC Eagle and Fleet or ATC Bobcat. I ended up with the Fleet and have been very satisfied with it for how we use it. The FWC frame is built like a tank, I have mistakenly hit some back country bumps hard enough to break one attachment point bolt and bend one turn buckle with no damage to the camper at all. Your use and wants in a camper may be very different than mine, but I think that the process I went through in choosing one was good. I am sure that if you look at how you want to use it and what you want it to do you will also come down to some pretty clear choices of what is best for your family. Then comes the hard part of finding one for the price you are willing to pay and distance you would drive to get it. Good luck, truck camping is great.

 

[RC Pilot Jim]

BackCountry -

You mentioned the Grandby and Hallmark have a base weight of 1,095 pounds. I think you will be surprised at the "optioned weight".
Our Eagle shell base weight - 595 pounds. The "all up" weight (without camping gear for 2 people) is 1,100 pounds (cabinet, counter, sink. portable fridge, porta-potty, 150 watt solar panel, auxiliary battery, Fiamma awning, inside roof lifters).

Adding camping gear, food, fluids for a week in the back country for 2 pushed the weight up to 5950 plus two people.


I would replace the half-ton for at least a 3/4 ton as you will easily exceed the GVWR whichever camper you decide on

 

[super doody]

Howdy folks,

Really, really appreciate all the helpful advice. I halfway expected to be blown up in this forum for implying that a FWC might not be the ideal choice. So thanks for all the even-handed, helpful responses. The gist as I'm reading it seems to be that FWC is better geared toward off-road whereas Hallmark includes more comfort-friendly features. Also really like the suggestions to spend time in various rigs imagining life in there.

Question on weight, though: the Grandby 8' base weight is 1,095 pounds, and the Hallmark EXC 8' also appears to be 1,095 lbs (before options). Does the Hallmark end up being heavier with the same set of options? Seems like they're awfully close in weight.

Some additional background on me since I'd rather be doing this than working....

Family of four, with two kiddos (currently 9 and 5) who we homeschool. I'm a climber, skier, backpacker, free diver, anything-outsider-er., and as a family we've been car campers since my first was 2. My wife loves the outdoors but needs to be comfortable, otherwise she doesn't sleep which means my 'vacation' becomes her 'hell.' Hence the move from tent camping to a cab-over.

That said, she'll happily be cooking, eating, and showering outside. The camper will really be for sleeping, food/water storage (fresh veggies are highly valued in our family), and the porta potty.

In terms of use cases: everything from simple state park campground camping, to off-road excursions into the desert, to extended wander trips (prob 2-3 weeks) as part of the homeschool curriculum.

Oh, and our chariot is a 1/2 ton Silverado, 4WD.

We tend to be the types who 'do it right the first time' which often means spending money upfront to get better quality. However, in this instance, given other financial obligations, I'm thinking it makes sense to get into this lifestyle for $10k or less, if possible, confirm it works for the family, and invest in something new/higher quality (more creature comforts) down the road.

Any further input is of course welcome, but this has already been a huge help.

Thanks all!

Where are you located? Dealer support was important to me.

Check out this couple with a Hallmark:

http://www.ourbiggerpicture.com/

 

[rtpvibes]

My two cents , you have a truck and you used to being car campers so it sounds like you won't bring tons. Get what you can afford and what the weight and add some stronger lead spring or bags if you need them and make sure brakes are good . You have a family so I'm sure you drive with caution. I had a grandby on a01 tundra just with one extra spring because I haul a trailer for work . I used it for 8 months and I went from mass to South Carolina and back with 2 adults and a 2 year old and my 17 year old . Truck had no issues and we packed for two weeks . Before this I owned a 05 ranger that I had a shadow cruiser 7 wood frame model and heavy camper . I was a cautious driver and took care of my truck . So me keep your truck add alittle to help you carry camper and make sure truck is running great . So I would get what you can for now and go enjoy it and use it . Start there and pack as lite as possible. Never had any issues with either truck . Now I have a 07 tundra and 07 hawk

 

[smlobx]

Welcome backcountrydad!

I saw your post when you first posted it and thought this could evolve into an epic blow up but because of the good people on this forum you are getting sensible responses, particularly ski3pins initial comment.

As has been stated above everyone's situation is slightly different and there is no one right answer. Have fun in the search and enjoy the journey..

Eddie ( a Hallmark owner!)

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Howdy folks, I'm new to WTW but appreciate all the collective wisdom I've been reading in the various forums.

I'm looking to buy my first pop-up cab-over and am narrowing the search down to FWC and Hallmark. Seems easier to find used FWC's than Hallmarks (I could be wrong), and the thought of putting $20k+ on the table for a new Hallmark is a tough pill to swallow, even though the Hallmarks seem to be a bit better made and roomier inside.

So I'm posting to the FWC forum in hopes of receiving some input on why y'all chose an FWC over a Hallmark. For instance, the fact that the cab-over needs to be pulled out to form a Queen bed--even on the Grandby--seems suboptimal vs. the Hallmark EXC where the cab-over is already a full Queen--whether in the standard configuration or the North-South configuration. So what are the selling points of the FWC vs the Hallmark that convinced you to choose an FWC.

I don't mean to be inciting any riots. Just looking for some honest feedback to help with my buying decision.

Thanks in advance.

I recommend looking at ATC before you buy. Give them a call, you'll be talking to one of the owners. I went from a FWC Grandby to an ATC Bobcat that fits on a smaller truck. No regrets making the move. If you need customization, ATC is the 'can do' team.

 

[kmcintyre]

Howdy folks,

Really, really appreciate all the helpful advice. I halfway expected to be blown up in this forum for implying that a FWC might not be the ideal choice. So thanks for all the even-handed, helpful responses. The gist as I'm reading it seems to be that FWC is better geared toward off-road whereas Hallmark includes more comfort-friendly features. Also really like the suggestions to spend time in various rigs imagining life in there.

Question on weight, though: the Grandby 8' base weight is 1,095 pounds, and the Hallmark EXC 8' also appears to be 1,095 lbs (before options). Does the Hallmark end up being heavier with the same set of options? Seems like they're awfully close in weight.

Some additional background on me since I'd rather be doing this than working....

Family of four, with two kiddos (currently 9 and 5) who we homeschool. I'm a climber, skier, backpacker, free diver, anything-outsider-er., and as a family we've been car campers since my first was 2. My wife loves the outdoors but needs to be comfortable, otherwise she doesn't sleep which means my 'vacation' becomes her 'hell.' Hence the move from tent camping to a cab-over.

That said, she'll happily be cooking, eating, and showering outside. The camper will really be for sleeping, food/water storage (fresh veggies are highly valued in our family), and the porta potty.

In terms of use cases: everything from simple state park campground camping, to off-road excursions into the desert, to extended wander trips (prob 2-3 weeks) as part of the homeschool curriculum.

Oh, and our chariot is a 1/2 ton Silverado, 4WD.

We tend to be the types who 'do it right the first time' which often means spending money upfront to get better quality. However, in this instance, given other financial obligations, I'm thinking it makes sense to get into this lifestyle for $10k or less, if possible, confirm it works for the family, and invest in something new/higher quality (more creature comforts) down the road.

Any further input is of course welcome, but this has already been a huge help.

Thanks all!

I think if you watch and search for a good used one you can fit that in the budget. I found a "deal" on mine and then upgraded it and stayed within budget. I basically took it apart and rebuilt most everything (or cleaned, etc.). Had the vinyl and push boards replaced on a trip West at the ATC factory (I have a FWC but ATC works on them). Just be ready to pounce on the good deals and search, search, search. Use something like searchtempest to search craigslist too. when buying used, check out the obvious things; condition of vinyl, push boards, roof, leaks, etc. Other things are cheap to fix. For instance, my furnace wouldn't fire up. I replaced the ignitor, jet, sail switch, etc., and took it apart, cleaned it, etc. turned out it was the electronic board. I think it was $150. Pretty cheap. that was the most expensive thing (other than the vinyl, etc.). Jacks are nice to have too as they can be expensive and used ones are hard to find (unless you want cable, etc. and those can be scary).

Good luck!