Hey Deer Hunters...

And for the record, we are not vegetarians. In fact I like venison. And beef, and bison, elk, emu, whatever. Heck, I even bbq'd a rattle snake I killed in our yard. It isn't the hunting that pushed my buttons to the point where I had to rant. It is my observation that hunters, as a group, tend to trash the outdoors more than any other group. And this year was easily the worst we have ever seen.


No worries I would be irritated as well, I was only responding to the animals shooting back comment with my veggie comment.
 
If you are a vegetarian then I'll acknowledge you at least put your money where your mouth is and don't make hypocritical statements and will peacefully agree to disagree.



I think we will have to bestow the official WTW busted award on Mr. High. Those steaks he was cooking on the campfire last fall were most certainly tracked and killed at the local Safeway :D
 
I think we will have to bestow the official WTW busted award on Mr. High. Those steaks he was cooking on the campfire last fall were most certainly tracked and killed at the local Safeway :D


I've heard cougars have been known to prowl those types of places... :eek: :D
 
Yup. busted. Not saying I don't occasionally eat meat. I do. FWIW, DD, that steak you saw me eat was one of about 2 or 3 I ate ALL last year. In between that I ate a few burgers here/there....but that's about it. I'd definitely rather sit down and eat a bunch of good fruit and veggies than a steak. Did you see me eat the tomato, the banana, and the grapes I also had with the steak? FWIW, I woulda skipped the steak altogether had I been solo but my buddy Mark brought em on the trip so I didn't wanna be rude.

And yes, it came from a store. We have that luxury. As such, there is no need for the majority of the macho-boyz out there to "harvest' animals from the forest. Like you, pods...you obviously have the income for an FWC...so your take from the forest isn't about survival, correct? I make the same distinction as you on the entire topic. If you are POOR and you need to FEED YOUR FAMILY, i support hunting. If you are out there to drink and kill stuff >for fun< (???) and you have the means to buy other food from other sources that are already set up to "harvest' animals, I see no need and no reason for these hunts/"harvests". All it is is a money game. It supports our Division of Wildlife (user-fees supported, not tax supported) and brings in tourist $$$ to this state (who then tie their kill on their hood with it's blue eyes staring into nothingness and cook it all the way back to Podunk. MMMMM. Aged meat!)

The argument of "we are managing their numbers and if we didn't kill them they would die in nature from overpopulation" that I hear alll the time from my hunting friends is such crap that it isn't even funny. Like the animals didn't manage themselves for billions of years before humans with high-powered rifles and mega-scopes (and cars) came into the picture? Yeah, right.

Back to the original topic at hand.....I agree with those who say the hunting crowd is the worst about trashing campsites. No ONE ELSE other than hunters leaves chopped up carcasses, legs, bones/etc. in their camp...unless it's folks like John Dahmer and john wayne Gacy. Throw in a set of TIRE CHAINS and a muddy/snowy forest service road and in the Spring it's easy to see where some clown has really done some serious damage to the forest that will survive longer than he will. And if they have an ATV, the damage is "off-road".

I realize my opinion isn't mainstream and opposes most folks general views on the subject. (like most of my other opinions/actions, LOL).

sorry to drop so mich personal opinion here but..um...you did ask.

be well

mtn
 
And yes, it came from a store. We have that luxury. As such, there is no need for the majority of the macho-boyz out there to "harvest' animals from the forest. Like you, pods...you obviously have the income for an FWC...so your take from the forest isn't about survival, correct? I make the same distinction as you on the entire topic. If you are POOR and you need to FEED YOUR FAMILY, i support hunting. If you are out there to drink and kill stuff >for fun< (???) and you have the means to buy other food from other sources that are already set up to "harvest' animals, I see no need and no reason for these hunts/"harvests". All it is is a money game. It supports our Division of Wildlife (user-fees supported, not tax supported) and brings in tourist $$$ to this state (who then tie their kill on their hood with it's blue eyes staring into nothingness and cook it all the way back to Podunk. MMMMM. Aged meat!)

I'm not hunting for survival but I'm not doing it for some macho trip either, at least in the macho trip you are referring to. I'm a very utilitarian type person who dislikes not knowing how to do things for my self if I so choose and I often opt to do many many things I could pay someone to do myself (my lack of free weekends at times speaks to that as I work on my house, etc.). So for starters the fact I don't have enough land to raise my own livestock means I'd have to turn to nature to provide a meat harvest that I can connect with on the personal level of acknowledging I'm going to kill it, field dress it (and quarter it out if a large animal), dry/cool the meat to protect my harvest (which means its not going hood of my car to adsorb heat & exhaust fumes), and then cut/package/freeze the meat. Its basically a version of having your own veggie garden instead of relying on the grocery produce section. Or perhaps an even more fitting example is hunting for wild morel mushrooms instead of relying on one of the common grocery varieties or paying ridiculous amounts of money to picked ones at the grocery. Same goes with elk & deer venison, you can't get that type of lean/hormone free meat at the store without a very high premium. Grass feed beef isn't as high a quality and farm raised elk for instance will run $10-30/lb.

The argument of "we are managing their numbers and if we didn't kill them they would die in nature from overpopulation" that I hear alll the time from my hunting friends is such crap that it isn't even funny. Like the animals didn't manage themselves for billions of years before humans with high-powered rifles and mega-scopes (and cars) came into the picture? Yeah, right.

Two things on this:
For starters its modern day hunters who have put massive effort & financing at habitat development/protection and fund the game biologists who manage & encourage animal populations. Around 1900 there were less than 100,000 elk left in north America due to habitat destruction and reckless harvesting for money. Roosevelt, a game hunter, was a big force in getting that turned around so these animals would be around for future generations. Future generations that would respect & hunt these animals. Otherwise cattle ranchers, who provide modern meat, and such could care less if elk existed still or not since they compete with livestock for grazing food.

Secondly yes hunters actively help manage animal levels. An area can only supply so much food for animals during the winter. Current populations are built up at higher levels than the environment could otherwise sustain because hunters (and other natural predators) reduce the population numbers, heavily in the fall after the new offspring has arrived. Removing these adult animals leaves resources available for the young animals. Without doing so the bulk herd would run out/low on food partway into the winter and you'd have massive winter kill. In the course of a year or two you'd see populations drop substantially. The reason this happens now is because billions of years ago humans hadn't gobbled up a large portion of their habitat... (why do you want to kill off the animals by taking their home? :p ).
 
What can we do about the problem of slobs in the forest. Set a good example. Pick up after ourselves and even others. Is this very effective? I don't think so. Unless its hitting the brakes after your buddy tosses a can out the truck (which I've done) I'm not sure this helps much.

Confronting people? Aside from the physical danger it usually just makes people defensive and accomplishes little.

I think the key is early training. I wish we could teach tread lightly in elementary school. Teach people good habits young and it usually stays with them their whole life.

I do a large camping trip in July. Up to a hundred people for a week. On Sunday just before everyone leaves, everyone, and I mean everyone grabs a trash bag and sweeps the camp. I'm optimistic that the kids are learning something that will stay with them. The people that run the campground sure appreciate it.

Now I have to make a confession. After getting back from my last trail ride I noticed my cb antenna had fallen off. I didnt have enough fuel left to go back and get it :(
 
I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger and kill something so majestic, pods. Period. How others can seperate such things out from any other kill/grusome scene >>without starvation as their driving force<<...I dunno. I can't help it that I enjoy those videos where the elk kick the hunters ass all over the woods anymore than you can help wanting to go hunting and kill the elk.

FYI, I also do all of my own home improvement/remodel tasks. (for better or worse) Might make a good thread (?) Maybe something like, "Why I didn't get to go camping in my FWC/ATC" ????

We also grow our own "produce" (LOL). Cheaper. Better. Pesticide-free.

I've seen/heard the argument you put forth on hunting many times. I've also heard the "yer house" argument. Yes, my home displaced some animals, just as yours did.

THAT FACT is reason enough for me to not go out and kill MORE animals in my area for "sport"!

In the end, when it comes to religion, politics, hunting, sexual preference, claiming/using yer favorite drug, and a zillion other topics, all I can really say is "Reasonable Men Agree to Disagree" and leave it @ that. Thanks for the volly.

Much respect

happy trails

mtn
 
I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger and kill something so majestic, pods. Period. How others can seperate such things out from any other kill/grusome scene >>without starvation as their driving force<<...I dunno.

For anyone that is a meat eater I'd say its a healthy thing to have to face up to where you food really comes from.

FYI, I also do all of my own home improvement/remodel tasks. (for better or worse) Might make a good thread (?) Maybe something like, "Why I didn't get to go camping in my FWC/ATC" ????

I was pressure washing a fence yesterday. :rolleyes:

I've seen/heard the argument you put forth on hunting many times. I've also heard the "yer house" argument. Yes, my home displaced some animals, just as yours did.

THAT FACT is reason enough for me to not go out and kill MORE animals in my area for "sport"!

Fine but don't overlook the fact that in turn means natural population levels would have to be lower without hunting in turn due to that fact (less animals and esp. cute offspring for all to view in the spring/summer). Some like to kid themselves that animals would be flush everywhere without hunters (and in turn the game biologists they primarily fund).

In the end, when it comes to religion, politics, hunting, sexual preference, claiming/using yer favorite drug, and a zillion other topics, all I can really say is "Reasonable Men Agree to Disagree" and leave it @ that. Thanks for the volly.


I just say to each his own. Its when others try to dictate the path others have to follow is when I dislike it.
 
And for the record, we are not vegetarians. In fact I like venison. And beef, and bison, elk, emu, whatever. Heck, I even bbq'd a rattle snake I killed in our yard. It isn't the hunting that pushed my buttons to the point where I had to rant.
And Ted did not share!!!
tongue.gif


WTW-PV_008.JPG
 
I love venison and elk, but just can't kill 'em. I'm a total hypocrite: I always accept gifts of wild game, just can't do 'em in myself. We deal with lots of messy hunters' camps here in SW Colorado. It's too bad that a few dickheads give hunters a bad name. All the hunters I know are very environmentally conscious. But there are some folks from the Lone Star State :eek: who come up here on hunting trips and trash the backcountry. It's a shame.
 
I'll end my part in this conversation with a lyric from one of my favorite performers.

how true. how true.




Change Myself
Composer: Todd Rundgren


Half of me wants to knock you out
Half of me wants to tell you that I'm sorry, so sorry
Meanwhile, half of the world wants to scream and shout
at half of the world
Just like you and I

Just another fact of life
We plan and we scheme'
Til there's nothing left of our little dream
But half of the time I can't decide
and Half of the time I'm petrified

I want to change the world
I want to make it well
How can I change the world
When I can't change myself?
Try again tomorrow

I'd love to change your mind
Capture your citadel
How could I change your mind If I can't change myself?
Try again tomorrow

Both of us want to win this fight
Both of us think the other is mistaken, so mistaken
Meanwhile, everyone wants to take up sides
So everyone helps us to fall apart
Just another fact of life

It's hard to play fair
And it's so easy to pretend to care
But if nobody wants to share the blame
Then everyone gets more of the same

If I want more peace in the world
Then I must make peace with myself
If I want more trust in the world
Then I've got to trust in myself
If I want more love in the world
I must show more love to myself

if I'm ever gonna change the world...
 
Sorry but you guys definitely have this coming:


:p I'd say we were a long way off an argument and just pointing out different view points. I don't expect folks to magically agree on hunting but do appreciate when folks realistically consider the effects on animal populations with and without hunters playing a role and the money they provide too fund conservation of the various species.

I personally think it'd be a much more grim story for animal populations without hunters. I honestly don't know if the populations would have recovered they way they have from the 1900s without these folks backing it as it wasn't a time period of conservation without motivation...

Basically just pointing out that everywhere wouldn't be an oasis of animal life w/o modern hunters as some anti-folks like to unrealistically dream about (not saying that is you mnt.)
 
Funny how an original post/thread that everyone seemed to agree with can get hijacked and morphed into such a long...uhh...not an argument, eh?...then such a long ...uhh...discussion. :D

Glad I don't have any strong opinions about anything (as far as anyone here knows...yet! ;))
 
there are just too many people and bad parents that didnt teach johnny any respect. now johnny makes all these messes and breeds lots of kids who do the same.
 
http://www.denverpos...ews/ci_16300236


Backcountry garbage keeps rangers busy
The Denver PostPosted: 10/10/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

GLENWOOD SPRINGS— Forest rangers are having to double as trash haulers in western Colorado, thanks to people who've left behind garbage, tarps, cooking utensils, propane bottles — even toilet seats.

The U.S. Forest Service said backcountry rangers spent three days recently removing trash from remote areas of the White River and Routt National forests. Eight mules and horses were used to pack out the remnants of two hunting camps.

But rangers said there's more where that came from. There are several campsites south of Craig with trash and abandoned property.

Rangers also tore down a partial log cabin. From Post and wire reports
 
It seems, and thankfully so, the majority of people who like to camp also hunt here in Mt. Linking one group to a general problem such as litter generally is just an axe grinding. No group has the monopoly on stupidity.

On a more positive note come Nov 11 I'll be camping/hunting and don't have to be back to work until Dec 1st. :D Hunting is much more than shooting an animal to me. I don't do it for meat or for the trophy although I enjoy both. I do it because I enjoy it for a plethora of reasons.
 
Sorry Rob, I didn't write the article, nor did I identify "who" was at fault. However, it seems like it was fairly obvious to the USFS "who" was at fault in this instance.

Bottom line, your tax dollars and mine had to pay for the removel of this "hunting" camp trash/debris.

Hunting obviously >isn't< expensive enough. The DOW should be in there cleaning this up on the $$$ the "sportsmen" spend on licenses/etc. rather than $$$ being taken from "public" tax dollars.

be safe, all.

mtn
 
Sorry Rob, I didn't write the article, nor did I identify "who" was at fault. However, it seems like it was fairly obvious to the USFS "who" was at fault in this instance.

Bottom line, your tax dollars and mine had to pay for the removel of this "hunting" camp trash/debris.

Hunting obviously >isn't< expensive enough. The DOW should be in there cleaning this up on the $$$ the "sportsmen" spend on licenses/etc. rather than $$$ being taken from "public" tax dollars.

be safe, all.

mtn


The average hunter has no more contribution towards this or control over this then the average camper, back packer, fisherman, etc. I'd support education campaigns and heavy fines for violators but I wouldn't support just jacking up the price of hunting licenses just because some slob campers in the woods happen to be hunting. The act of hunting can be a day activity w/o ever camping at all.

Its unfortunate people abuse the wilderness and they should be dealt with whether is leaving remnants of a camp behind or dumping off an old fridge or tires in the woods.
 
I don't know how other folks do it but when we backpack we "leave no trace". No fire. No trash. No destroyed vegetation. No dead animal parts.

Show me a hunting camp with no fire ring, no place where horses have been tied, and no place where an animal has been gutted out and I'll take every word back.

be safe

mtn
 

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