How to Heat Water Tank

[Ace!]

I like to camp in sub-freezing conditions. Now that I have a Hawk I'm wondering how to keep the water from freezing. Are there 12V heating mats I can put in the truck bed that will keep the water from freezing?

Edit: just to be clear, I don't need warm water, just not frozen water.

Anyone use something like this: http://www.annodindustries.com/shop/holding-tank-heaters

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Ace, if you're going to be away from the camper for any amount of time, and without heat, then I'd suggest you winterize. That would include draining the tank, water heater, blowing out the water lines, and making sure the pump is clear of water as well. If you can get to the outflow side of the pump, unscrew the line and run it to get the water out. You could also put RV antifreeze in the tank, then run the pump. The downside of the antifreeze is having to purge the system in the spring.

For my trailer (I haven't tried it on the camper), I bought a 90° fitting and hooked a tube to it to drain the water into a bottle. That pump had a 1/2 - 14 nps male fitting. It worked nicely. I'll check the camper pump tomorrow to see if the drain tube will work.

Use water bottles for unheated winter camping.

 

[Wallowa]

Question: Are you worried that the water in the 20 gallon water tank will freeze while you are using the camper or when you are not using the camper? I would assume that if you are in sub-zero temps and in the camper the heater for the camper will prevent the water in the tank from freezing. Or are you talking about the 6 gallons in the DSI water heater? Space heater should also keep this from freezing if you heat the inside of the camper.

Phil

 

[MarkBC]

I like to camp in sub-freezing conditions. Now that I have a Hawk I'm wondering how to keep the water from freezing. Are there 12V heating mats I can put in the truck bed that will keep the water from freezing?...

I don't have an answer, but I'm interested in the question.

Thoughts I've had on this subject in the past:

When I've gone campering in sub-freezing (even sub-zero-F) temperatures I've usually carried water in smaller containers -- 2-gallon to 7-gallon carboys which are kept above freezing because they're in contact with the warmth of the camper living space. Living space is warmer than the sub-freezing outdoors because it's warmed by cooking and the furnace.

The freshwater tank is in/under the couch/setee and in contact with the un-insulated floor, so I assume it would be more vulnerable to freezing than water stored in the camper living space. The cushion and cabinet insulate the tank from the warmth of the living space. Which is why I haven't used the tank in winter. On the other hand, the tank volume is big so would be slower to freeze than a small volume...

I've considered the possibility of some kind of low-power heater in/under the water tank, as the OP suggested...but then I thought about the fact that the lines to the faucet would also have to be kept warm, since they're in more-or-less uninsulated cabinets, and because lines are small they'll freeze fast. I've had the sink drain line freeze frequently.

Back before I started using a catalytic heater at night -- i.e., when I was dependent on a loud and power-consuming furnace that I didn't like to run -- it sometimes got well-below freezing in the camper overnight (in winter). I've had water freeze in 2-gallon and even 5-gallon carboys, at least partially. I had to make sure that the carboy was positioned so that the spigot wasn't under-water, so that it wouldn't get iced up. Then I just had to pound on the carboy a bit in the morning to break up the ice.
I felt just like Kit Carson.

 

[Ace!]

Thanks. If I wasn't clear, I mean camping in sub-freezing, not winterizing.

 

[cdbrow1]

My 2 cents.. propane is cheap and I would just keep the furnace on low. Perhaps I don't camp in as cold a weather as you.

 

[Ace!]

I'm going to have the heater on low, but I don't know that it will keep the tank from freezing. I will be insulating the lines if possible. I thought I might need a tank pad and there are also pads that are narrow for lines. I'll see what I need this winter I guess.

 

[billharr]

I have camped where the over night temps get into the 20's but warms above freezing in the day. No problem with water inside as the heater was on. Only problem was my grey water tank, drain line was frozen solid.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Thanks. If I wasn't clear, I mean camping in sub-freezing, not winterizing.

Ace, you were very clear about camping in sub freezing weather. I guess I am just conservative about the camper, and don't want to have a freeze related issue. If I can't leave heat on, I will winterize.

Edit: Just saw this..

I'm going to have the heater on low, but I don't know that it will keep the tank from freezing. I will be insulating the lines if possible. I thought I might need a tank pad and there are also pads that are narrow for lines. I'll see what I need this winter I guess.

If you have the heat on, you'll be fine. I don't see a need for a tank heater. If you're not in the camper, you might leave cabinet doors open for more airflow into those areas.

 

[Taku]

As Thoreau said "Simplify, simplify, simplify". We just use 2.5 and 5 gallon water containers. Built the cabinets so two 5 gln containers fit up front snugly. Before we added the furnace, if the smaller bottles froze, I would get up first and stuff them under the sleeping bags. Did not win many points with my wife, but it worked. Maybe that's why we have a furnace now!

 

[BILL98388]

Also consider that any electrical heating element would use lots of amp-hours while on.

We use the 'water in a jug' ideas and do not have a permanent water system installed in the Grandby shell model. We do have a furnace and Taku's idea of the frozen water jug in the sleeping bag idea would not work for my better half ;-).

Bill

 

[Wallowa]

As usual I may be missing something; but certainly FWCs are used in -10 or below weather [I plan to] and the FWC company must have designed in the ability to use your camper in such really low temps and not freeze the water in any of the appliances, tanks and lines.

But I could be wrong.

Phil

 

[Ace!]

I don't think they designed it specifically for temps that low. I called FWC asked about insulation and was told it was good, but not great (R-value is low). Basically there isn't any insulation that works great in a camper like the FWC. On top of that it's a pop up so those soft "walls" are not insulated unless you have the cold weather pack. So, my thought is it is probably much less insulated than a much heavier hard side.

If you call FWC they can explain the R-value of the insulation they use.

 

[takesiteasy]

I don't think they designed it specifically for temps that low. I called FWC asked about insulation and was told it was good, but not great (R-value is low). Basically there isn't any insulation that works great in a camper like the FWC. On top of that it's a pop up so those soft "walls" are not insulated unless you have the cold weather pack. So, my thought is it is probably much less insulated than a much heavier hard side.

If you call FWC they can explain the R-value of the insulation they use.

I agree the campers are not designed for extreme cold weather use. In low temperatures you will experience condensation and frost, especially over the aluminum frame members and on the vinyl pop-up sides, even with the arctic pac liner. The extent will depend on how cold it is, how many people and pets are inside (and other sources of water vapor such as humidity and snow melt from clothing) and how warm you try to keep the camper. I would expect water lines to freeze. We have a shell camper and don't have a water system- we use bottled water which can freeze. In our experience, keeping the camper warm in very cold temps will consume a lot of battery power and/or propane depending on the type of heat source. Furnace blowers consume electricity. Catalytic heaters consume propane, produce water vapor and require ventilation, increasing the amount of heat required. None of this is to say the campers can't be used in cold weather. We have done it. It is a challenge. YMMV.

 

[Ace!]

If you have any tips or tricks, pass them along.

 

[Wallowa]

Ace,

I am very interested in what shakes out of your question about freezing water inside a FWC. R-Factor does not help me or anyone predict how low outside temps must get to freeze the water in the Hawk. Assuming the space heater is functioning. Yes, I will contact Stan and ask about their experience. Decades ago I had a cab over hard shelled camper and never had the water tank or water in the plumbing freeze at minus zero temps.

I sure hope the Hawk I am about to order is not just a "fair weather" unit that will not allow use in really cold temps. Out here winter use will most often be during minus zero temps. I am buying a self-contained camper so that I don't need to carry water jugs and have to thaw them out for water. You don't go winter camping with a winterized camper.

Anyway, there will be work arounds but I suspect that FWC has this covered in their design. With a thermal package and heater the inside should not drop below freezing; it seems to be a small space with adequate heat.

Phil

 

[MarkBC]

Where I live, in central Oregon, it sometimes gets down near/below 0°F. When it's forecast to get that cold the weatherpersons remind folks to take special measures to keep their house water pipes from freezing. One of those measures is to open up under-sink cupboards if the sink is against an exterior wall. That's so that the heat of the room can help keep the sink plumbing warm.
That same principle applies to a camper: If the plumbing and tank are not in the zone that's heated -- the living space -- then they may freeze. Especially so because the camper is not nearly as well-insulated as even my cheap mid-'70s house.

That said, I consider my camper absolutely suitable for mid-winter camping -- I've done it many times, including in sub-zero-F weather. But I don't use the camper plumbing when I'm camping in winter.
Then what's the point of the camper? Because even if I don't use the plumbing it's still much more comfortable and convenient than tent-camping when it's 0°F.
And maybe the plumbing wouldn't freeze anyway if I'm running the furnace.

That's the way I look at it.

 

[Ace!]

I'm going to spend Thanksgiving week in Eastern Oregon (well probably), driving from Lakeview to near Hood River or Pendleton...or that's the plan right now anyway. Most of it will be off road if weather allows.

I typically take a short backpacking trip each winter so I'm not averse to freezing conditions. I really hope I can start using a Hawk instead of having to sleep on a pad on the snow.

 

[longhorn1]

Where I live, in central Oregon, it sometimes gets down near/below 0°F. When it's forecast to get that cold the weatherpersons remind folks to take special measures to keep their house water pipes from freezing. One of those measures is to open up under-sink cupboards if the sink is against an exterior wall. That's so that the heat of the room can help keep the sink plumbing warm.
That same principle applies to a camper: If the plumbing and tank are not in the zone that's heated -- the living space -- then they may freeze. Especially so because the camper is not nearly as well-insulated as even my cheap mid-'70s house.

That said, I consider my camper absolutely suitable for mid-winter camping -- I've done it many times, including in sub-zero-F weather. But I don't use the camper plumbing when I'm camping in winter.
Then what's the point of the camper? Because even if I don't use the plumbing it's still much more comfortable and convenient than tent-camping when it's 0°F.
And maybe the plumbing wouldn't freeze anyway if I'm running the furnace.

That's the way I look at it.

Where I live, in central Oregon, it sometimes gets down near/below 0°F. When it's forecast to get that cold the weatherpersons remind folks to take special measures to keep their house water pipes from freezing. One of those measures is to open up under-sink cupboards if the sink is against an exterior wall. That's so that the heat of the room can help keep the sink plumbing warm.
That same principle applies to a camper: If the plumbing and tank are not in the zone that's heated -- the living space -- then they may freeze. Especially so because the camper is not nearly as well-insulated as even my cheap mid-'70s house.

That said, I consider my camper absolutely suitable for mid-winter camping -- I've done it many times, including in sub-zero-F weather. But I don't use the camper plumbing when I'm camping in winter.
Then what's the point of the camper? Because even if I don't use the plumbing it's still much more comfortable and convenient than tent-camping when it's 0°F.
And maybe the plumbing wouldn't freeze anyway if I'm running the furnace.

That's the way I look at it.

Mark, I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't think I could ever get my wife to go winter camping in Indiana. With that said, I winterize after our last trip in late October or early November. If by chance we decided to go, it would get 2 gallon containers with a spigot and set them on the counter. I just would risk the change of busting pipes. With so many things, furnace, hot water heater, lines in the cabinets removing busted pipes would not be easy without removing interior woodwork. jd

 

[takesiteasy]

If you have any tips or tricks, pass them along.

We don't do a ton of overnight winter camping- winter here is best spent near a nice fireplace with short forays out on skis or snowshoes. The last two years the camper has stayed in the garage and we just put it there again this weekend. For what we have done our main strategies involved reflectix and towels. We made inserts for the windows out of reflectix as well as a liner for the arctic pac (reflectix goes between the arctic pac and the vinyl. We also insulated under the mattress with reflectix. The towels are for wiping up the condensation and melting frost of which there can be a considerable amount. We generally don't spend a lot of time in the camper during the day except occasionally as a warming house. We usually run the heater just at night before bed and in the morning due to battery limitations. We use good quality sleeping bags and easily stay warm without the furnace while sleeping. The dog also gets covered with a sleeping bag. We have discussed trying camping at a campground with electric hookups which would eliminate the battery concern. I am curious if running the furnace all night would improve the condensation or make it worse. I have also thought that running a small fan at night to keep the air moving in the camper might reduce condensation too. We haven't tried that yet.