How to Heat Water Tank

It also seems to make clearer ice cubes which look better in a cocktail at the end of a long day, while I sit under the awning of the Hawk.
 
The FLIR images are interesting and of some relative value but it is not clear if or how the camera was calibrated and if the automatic temperature scale displayed is accurate or not and therefore I would be careful about drawing any conclusions from it.

This is similar to the kinds of measurements I have been making on space borne instruments for over 30 years and it is not trivial to get good repeatable results (if you can't repeat to the same accuracy then the experiment needs refinement).

That written using a calibrated FLIR imager with a reference target in the scene with the camper, as an in-situ real time reference, would be helpful. The reference target could be as simple as a hot plate with a thermometer (consumer devices are not very accurate and vary device to device) or better a thermocouple attached to it. The hot plate should be set to a temperature near the warmest temperature in the scene. Further, adding a low temperature reference target would facilitate a two point linear calibration curve (straight line) that could be used to interpolate other temperatures from (a bowl of slushy ice water would make a good 0 degree C reference target),

Of course the test needs to be done in a controlled way with as many temperature influencing factors as possible accounted for and measured if possible. Air temperature, wind, whatever. The simple action of a person going in and installing or removing material can change the test results so it is best conducted using the in-situ reference targets and performing the experiment several times with no insulation and again later several times after the insulation has been added and after any introduced heat from a human has dissipated (may have to run an experiment to figure out how long to wait between installing/removing the insulation) At the end make a measurement again of the initial state to see if the no insulation measurements are the same before and after.

I would treat each side as a separate test (set of measurements with and without insulation) because moving the equipment between measurements can mess things up. Also other factors may influence the sides differently from each other.

As long as the test were being conducted why not use different materials ,and conduct the test several times to compare effectiveness of different materials or application techniques (e,g internal blankets or external insulation blankets)

I would very much like to see the data and results from such a set of measurements. I think they would be quite informative.

I live in Solvang, CA and if someone near me has a FLIR camera and a few thermistors with a readout device (say an Omega or HP handheld meter type device) along with a low temperature hot plate or blackbody source I would be happy to help engineer, set up and conduct such a test.

Regards,

Craig
 
Craig,

Sincerely in awe of your knowledge base; but, [you knew that was coming :D] "calibration and accuracy" will provide 'nice to know' data points but what I 'need to know' is not a quantified measurement of perceived heat energy loss from differing panels and areas but a relative differentiation that might guide me to find the areas most in need of insulation. Even if I can get to the areas needing insulation that insulation will be at best 'rude and crude'. I might be able to use the data provided from measurements made with precision or accuracy but as always it is cost vs. benefit.

FLIR is cool tool or toy, depending how you view it, but my IR heat reading 'gun' will find areas that I need to insulate. Would I like to have a FLIR NVD and a rifle scope? You bet, but not for this.

I am slowly coming to a realization that I personally am chasing my tail in an effort to effectively insulate my Hawk sufficiently to prevent water lines from freezing in sub-zero temps and sufficiently to stretch my propane out for an extra week beyond what is 'normal'.

Juice for batteries will be solar or alternator but frozen lines or no propane are stop-right-there occurrences for all but the basic use of the camper as a shelter.

If we stumble onto a magic bullet to truly insulate my Hawk I will be elated. Alas my breathing holding ability only extends for about 5mins. ;)

Phil
 
Phil,

You wroote: "I am slowly coming to a realization that I <personally> am chasing my tail in an effort to effectively insulate my Hawk sufficiently to prevent water lines from freezing in sub-zero temps and sufficiently to stretch my propane out for an extra week beyond what is 'normal'.


I think you are correct short of erecting an insulated or heated cover over and around your truck and camper. Humm, a 20 foot long single car Costco style carport. If you are in one spot for a couple of weeks it might help a lot. Just set up a wood fired stove or some type of heater in the carport and heat the whole thing up above freezing.

;-)

Regards,
Craig
 
Hmm, if the duration warrants it thats not a bad idea. We do a portable shelter for our card games on of my trips thats easy to setup and take down.

The other question I'd like answered is , time. I'm not much of a winter camper. Single nights and single digits though haven't been a problem. Assuming you heat the interior to just above freezing I wonder how long before things get cold enough you're worried about the water tank, pump etc. Assuming a stock camper.
 
We have not been in a lot of below freezing temperatures in our Keystone camper. Two years ago we camped our way up the Sierra East side in October and stayed at both Saddlebag lake and Ellery Lake.

Temps dropped into the low 20's to high teens overnight. There was a thin layer of ice on the ceiling rails in the morning (where the aluminum ribs are). We had no problem with our water. I did flip on the heater once or twice during the night (I can reach it from the over cab bed) and first thing in the morning so actual inside temp was probably between 32 and 35 most of the time overnight.

I would not walk away from the camper during the day with temps below freezing while leaving the heater off if there was a full water tank.

We have a garage thermostat now so I just set it to 35 degrees (lowest setting) at night and let the heater do its thing.

Regards,

Craig
 
We overnight in the Colorado rockies for ski camping most weekends. This past weekend we were in the Fraser valley near Winter Park. There is a big difference in whether its in the 20s or teens and the lower zero and negative F temps. We use jugs for winter camping and mostly use a 7 gallon refillable jug.

Another tip, if it is going to be really low, like below zero F, try sleeping with the top down. The furnace runs way less often and the condensation is barely noticeable since the inside temp stays warm. The GF and I crammed in on the lower dinette bunk and were cozy all night. We use a 35F garage thermostat too. Our camper is a Hallmark, you experience may vary in a FWC.

We also do trips where we head to warmer climates for a week and then have to winterize on the way back to Colorado. We've found that winterizing early on the drive back is the best approach. On a trip over Thanksgiving we ended up in a snow storm in Moab, UT were I winterized at the campsite late at night after driving all day. I got the tank and hot water heater empty but forgot to drain the outside shower properly and had a tube in this assembly froze and cracked. If we had winterized back in AZ I could have taken my time and done it properly.
 
Earlier in the thread someone wondered what the water tank was made from. The one in our Phoenix is polyethylene. This is the normal polymer used for potable water containers, but there are others that may be used as well. Polypropylene and Acrylic ("Lexan") come to mind, but there may be others that I'm not aware of.

Given the little that I know of MarkBC's background the FLIR camera was calibrated if it was at all possible to do so.
 
I was trying to think of a way to duct mine, at least partially to the cabinet area. Thanks for posting that. Maybe that Atwood is a better alternative.
 
Interesting conversation...
As a possible partial solution to insulating the H2O tank if the area is hard to reach you might consider using spray foam to get into those places. Just be sure to use foam that has a minimal expansion rate or has room to expand.
 
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