Insulation

[Umtduckhead]

Im bring up a very old topic. Reflectix. My wife and I have a new Hawk with a thermo pack. Elk hunting this year in Montana we saw low-teens. Camper was kept at once 50-55deg. Heater did cycle quite a bit. I am wondering if any of you all have attached the Refletix insulation to the arctic pack with good results? If so did you sew them together or velcro? I am headed to ohio this year for some last season deer hunting. I am hoping and praying for freezing weather. I am also hoping to keep the drafts out of the camper. Thanks

 

[Stalking Light]

I made Reflectix panels to cover the windows in my Eagle and am in the process of putting it on the 'down' side of my lift panels. I also have Reflectix under the main part of my mattress, but I've not tried to add it to my thermal pack - not sure how it would fold up when the top is down so you'd definitely want to use Velcro.

I think it helps some, but I do get condensation between my thermal pack and the outside an expect that would be the same with Reflectix added - just more trouble to air out after a trip.

 

[Umtduckhead]

thats a good point. I just purchased a mess of that reflectix.. I have a busy weekend ahead of me insulating everything.

 

[ckent323]

Heat is transmitted by one of three mechanisms, radiant energy, Convection and Conduction. Conduction and convection are the dominant drivers of heat/cold in your camper. Reflectix deals with radiant energy.

See this:

http://www.cheaprvliving.com/blog/understanding-insulation-van/


Regards,


Craig

 

[EDR]

I bought reflectix and while trying to put it in place I had concerns about it being too stiff and decided against it.
I think I'll use It for the windows and under the upper bunk.
I recently bought a few yards of polartec windpro fabric to use as my thermal pac.
I still need to attach velcro, but I think it should work well. It will at least fold up easily when I put the top down.

Anyone else tried using polartec or another type of fleece? Any issues?

 

[lqhikers]

when we had our first fwc there was not a thremo pac available.

since sewing has always been one of my hobbies i did our first thermo out of a king size
quilted bed spread, enough material to make a cover for all 4 sides,did it in 4 pieces with velcro
worked so good that when we bought our next pop up i went to a large wholesale auto/fabric
outlet (Keystone) and bought some very good quilted uph. material did it in 3 pieces as our new
pop up (Northstar) has windows on all 4 sides we leave the forward cover on almost all the time as this also works
as a heat block when its hot,and facing the sun.

what is nice about the quilted cover is that you can throu it in the washer/dryer.

also when closing top it all folds up with no problems.

i do assume every one turns the exhaust fan on to suck fabric in when lowering top
this keeps from bunching.

best thing cost about $50.00 material, labor free

Les.lqhikers

 

[PaulT]

Another thing to consider with any insulation is where condensation occurs. It will be on the tent vinyl without a vapor barrier on the inside. If you put Reflectix up as vapor barrier and fleece on the outside of it as wall insulation, Reflectix, being water proof, would likely block most of the condensation and keep the tent vinyl and fleece drier, and you warmer.

Mechanically, it might be possible to keep the Reflectix/fleece sandwich either as a roll to be put up in cold weather or as rectangular panels that can be stored flat and hung up. As panels, you could put some plastic U channel at the top and bottom of the tent material and insert the panel top and bottom edges into the U channel to keep them in place. As a roll, you could use metal or plastic strips, (think short wide sections of retractable tape measure) that served to hold the insulation in place.

I use Reflectix and closed cell urethane foam sleeping pad under the mattress to reduce condensation there and am still thinking about how to solve the wall insulation problem. I have not had the incentive to solve it that WTW'ers as I have not been regularly camping in really cold weather like you hardy winter campers.

Looking forward to more ideas for solving this common issue.
Paul

 

[Wallowa]

Mister "I don't know " here.

What exactly is the problem trying to be solved by adding Reflectix?

If you have the 'Thermal Pack' does that not provide sufficient insulation in combo with the heater?

I also plan to use our Hawk in cold temps [teens to single digits or ?].

Thanks....

Phil

 

[PaulT]

Ttying to reduce heat loss thru camper walls.
Material "R" values

Sum up the different layers
Exterior air film 0.17
Interior air film 0.68
1/2 air space 1.00 (between vinyl and arctic pack cloth)
arctic pack cloth 0.68 (unknown assume same as interior air film)
-------------------------------
Total 2.65

Reflectix 1.70 (one stated R value in linked article)
fleece 0.68 (unknown assume same as interior air film)
------------------------------
5.03

SWAG (Silly Wild Guess) is that adding a layer of Reflectix backed with thin fleece sheet material would almost double the R value
or going from a triple pane window to a R11 fiberglass with metal stud wall

While the above is certainly not a strictly accurate, it shows the concept of arriving at what improvement could be made. There are engineers present on WTW that will be happy to debunk the above.

Better is to try something yourself and see if you are warm enough and not use all your propane between opportunities to replenish the supply.

Paul .

 

[brianjwilson]

The goal is to retain heat better. The Arctic pack certainly helps, but a lot of heat is lost up there.

Last time I was home I cut reflectix to cover all of the glass windows in my fleet. I covered the outer walls inside a few cabinets. Additionally I cut two long strips (24" wide) to stuff between the outside layer and the Arctic pack. That is just what I had to work with, so there are a couple inches at the top of the soft side not covered. I wouldn't attempt to close the top with it in place, instead I roll these pieces up (roughly 10" around when stored). It is very easy to pull back the top of the Arctic pack and slide these in. Even easier to take them out.

I slept in the camper one night when the temp was in the teens, furnace set at 55 most of the night. The vent over my bed was opened a little over 1".

I found that the furnace cycled once every 50 minutes or so. The fan would run for 10-15 minutes each time. Often time the heat would stop for a minute, air cooled down, then I would hear the igniter kick on and heat for a few more minutes. I'm assuming the furnace kicks off the heat above a certain internal temp.

This did feel like an improvement overall. I still had large temp swings but it felt less drafty around the soft sides. I did not get condensation on the Arctic pack, but I had a lot on the inside of the outer later. Stupid me, I removed the reflectix in the morning, turned the heat down to 45 and left for 30 minutes. When I came back to close up, the condensation was all frozen. I ended up having to open everything and thaw it out the next dry and dry it. Also, when I opened my cabinets in the morning everything wasn't freezing in there. It definitely seemed to retain heat a little better. I think when I'm home later this month I will line a few more cabinets. I really need to better insulate the area around the fridge, since there is a vent behind it, the cabinet was very cold to the touch and it is right where my daughter sleeps.

 

[Stalking Light]

Lining the inside of the cabinets sounds like a great idea. I've got some left over Reflectix and I'm going to do that too.

 

[buckland]

I too have Reflectix and there is a condensation improvement (no thermal pack ...Yet. My question is sort of related to yours Brian. When storing your camper in the winter months (garage).... do you keep the roof vent open a bit to let it breathe or do you close up tight? I hate the smell of mold and would hate to open camper in Spring all excited and face that. That being my first question. The second is (and thanks Craig for the informative link) as we live in New England... what material to make the thermal pack out of so it won't absorb the condensation and how to maintain the air space between the pack and the vinyl? BTW down/wool booties and a wool hat keep the body happily warmer than using a big coat/sweater... lots of heat comes off 'the stack'!

 

[Umtduckhead]

This man be over kill.. Anyone every spray foamed the lower part of the camper?

 

[RicoV]

Not spray-foamed exactly, but did apply UVA foam panel sections with contact cement 'wrapped' all around the lower (wood) portions of the camper, also have an exterior wrap of reflectix around the vinyl. Seems to help...

(unclear on what's up (down?) with the WTW image uploader, but can't get my pix attached onto here, sorry)

 

[Seemore]

We also used reflectex, both by itself and under the cold pack. It is quicker and easier to put up and down than the pack. It is available in 2 ft wide rolls (25 ft long), so we just measured the length we wanted and made one cut. It fits almost perfectly and rolls up and stores behind the couch when travelling. We live on the wet coast, so condensation is a problem. The reflectex helps a little bit with that, and it definitely keeps the camper warmer, especially when it is freezing outside. An added bonus - it also helps keep the heat out in the summer. We usually put it up on the sun side only when the temperatures reach the high 20s and 30s (oops - mid 80s and 90s). We have used the same reflectex for several years now. The edges have just started to get a little bent so it doesn't stay in quite as well as it used to if the wind is blowing. We are going to use a strap with velcro on the end to hold it in.

 

[Wallowa]

Just my WAGs; but the potential usefulness and where best to use Relectix was well summarized at the website [Bob's] Craig listed earlier.

I understand the advantage to insulate, but effective insulation is not voodoo it merely either reflects radiate energy [Relectix] or creates an air gap or non-conductive material to block/slow down the transfer of energy. Air is a great insulator as evidenced with the loft in clothing etc.; so you need to establish a 'dead' [captured] air space to retain heat or to exclude heat. Closed cell foams, sheets [I believe this what FWC went to] or injected foams, seem to be the best solution for insulating a FWC.

I can see using Relectix on the windows to reflect the incoming heat back out in an effort to keep the inside cooler. But any conductive heat loss/gain would only be accelerated with a metallic film. All the R Factor discussion needs to be qualified in terms of the heat transfer mechanism and the temperature differential.

I would love to explore how to enhance/limit the thermal loss or gain of heat when we get our Hawk. Finding where you can access exterior or intermediate walls to place insulation would be the first step. Storage space is at an obvious premium so a balance must be struck between filling storage spaces with insulation and retention of storage areas. In my case with an eye to protecting the water lines from freezing and not just for saving propane or battery power. Heck, might cut up my old wet-suits and use the closed cell nitrogen blown Rubatex. Great insulator.

Hey just my thoughts and of course I may be wrong!

Great topic for discussion and I hope it continues. Would love to have FWC chime in with recommendations.

Phil

 

[MarkBC]

...Relectix on the windows to reflect the incoming heat back out in an effort to keep the inside cooler. But any conductive heat loss/gain would only be accelerated with a metallic film...

The metallic film of Reflectix does not accelerate conductive heat transfer. That would only be true if you replaced the vinyl walls with foil.
Resistances are additive: R1 + R2 = Rtotal Even if R2 = 0, the total resistance, Rtotal, is no less than R1
You can't reduce the resistance of a material by adding a better conductor to it.

 

[Wallowa]

No you are correct you do not change the 'resistance' [assuming this is conductivity factor based on type and amount of material] but my idea was that metals [not all] conduct energy [electrical, sound, thermal] and would facilitate the escape/flow of energy [heat]. All but radiant energy will be conducted through the Reflectix foil at a higher rate than just contact with air resulting in a loss of energy, heat. Think metal cooling fins; not just more surface area but more surface area of a conductive material.

You know like laying on the metal bed of your truck on a cold night....your body heat is conducted away from you by contact with the metal...or, so it always seemed to me..

At any rate you still have more insulation with thicker non-conductive insulation...heck, I believe by definition insulation = non-conductive.

But only my take on this...and I am often wrong!

Phil

 

[brianjwilson]

I too have Reflectix and there is a condensation improvement (no thermal pack ...Yet. My question is sort of related to yours Brian. When storing your camper in the winter months (garage).... do you keep the roof vent open a bit to let it breathe or do you close up tight? I hate the smell of mold and would hate to open camper in Spring all excited and face that. That being my first question. The second is (and thanks Craig for the informative link) as we live in New England... what material to make the thermal pack out of so it won't absorb the condensation and how to maintain the air space between the pack and the vinyl? BTW down/wool booties and a wool hat keep the body happily warmer than using a big coat/sweater... lots of heat comes off 'the stack'!

I intend to keep the camper on full time unless I need the truck for something else. I work out of state (14 days on, 14 off), and during the time I'm gone the truck and camper stay parked in the garage. Yes I leave the roof vent open, my garage stays about 55 degrees in the winter. When I'm home, I'm in and out of the camper just about daily, doing stuff with my daughter. The heater stays at 45 degrees so when it's cold out and we're running around it still kicks on every now and then.






The reflectix does not transfer cold back into the camper. I've used it in many other campers. The most obvious way I could visually see it was on my old hard side wood framed camper. When it was below freezing and the heater was running, I could see frost built up on the aluminum siding in small spots where it was either insulated well, or even where the wood frame was. The other areas were dry because heat was transferring to the exterior and it was above freezing. This was mostly the walls around the cabinets, windows etc. I lined the areas under the cabinets with reflectix, and cut reflectix for the windows and the frost appeared evenly. Again there was a noticable difference in temperature inside the cabinets as well. Think about it, it reflects radiant energy. The heat retained in the surfaces (cabinets, cushions, body heat etc) is what helps keep the camper warm when the furnace cycles off. You're heating up the surfaces and the heat continues to radiate from them. The reflectix is just helping prevent the heat from radiating/transferring to the exterior. Don't over-think it.

 

[brianjwilson]

I used a lot of 1/2" blue foam inside my last camper as well. It works better than reflectix, yes. But it is very time consuming to cut the shapes for every little cabinet and "seal" them up in some way. As for the soft sides and windows, it's not practical to have big pieces of rigid foam hanging out everywhere.

Regardless it is still a pop up. Aluminum frame roof, very light white foam insulation. Open roof vent. Wood base with no insulation. Going crazy with 1/2" foam is over kill because you're looking so much heat in other places. The reflectix just helps enough to make a difference, it's fairly cheap, quick and easy. And yes it helps even more in the sun.