Interior panels loose on a new Fleet Shell?

[Randonneur]

Hello- I'm a relatively new owner (June of 2017) of a FWC Fleet shell that I put on a Toyota Tacoma 4x4 and have used it for two 1 month trips so far. Overall, I am pleased with the design and workmanship of the camper but I have a concern that I would like some feedback on from other users.

After only 3 nights of use, I noticed that the interior panel of the camper seemed to be bowing away from the aluminum frame. At first, I only noticed it on the left side panel that doesn't have a window or any other attachments on it. I would push on it and it would flex and bow under my hand. As I kept using the camper, it seemed to relax some and no longer was bowing to the touch. I think in retrospect, this was because the first night I noticed the problem it had been raining for a few nights and the humidity may have been higher during that time. When it stopped bowing, it had been dry for at least two weeks since that trip was in the Southwest during a dry spell.

When I got home to Seattle, I aired out the camper, moved the mattress to the floor area like I had been told to do, then parked it in my carport. After about two weeks (during a fairly rainy period), I checked on the camper and again noticed that the interior panel(s) were bowing again. This time though, the rear panel was bowing in addition to the side panel and the rear panel seemed even worse. The bowing is so pronounced that the paneling in between the screws attaching the door casing/trim seem to be undergoing some stress. I would estimate that the panel has at least 1/2 inch flex over just about 1-2 feet of panel height distance.

So, a couple of things. My dealer in Tigard, Oregon, just went bankrupt and is out of business. I am satisfied with the level of service and care I received from this dealer, but he is not presently available for me to go to for advice. (He may come back in another dealership, but that hasn't happened yet.) Next, I have been in contact with the Service department of Four Wheel Camper in Woodland and they indicated to me that a certain amount of bowing of the interior panels is normal for a shell model since there aren't many attachments on the walls to prevent this from happening. I agree that some bowing would be normal but I am worried that what I have noticed on the rear panel is excessive.

My questions to you all then are:

A) Have any of you noticed this problem on your Fleet Shell models? I have the Silver Spur trim package with just a heater and stove cabinet on the one side, the thermal insulation package, and an awning. The seats are just the wheel well benches.

I am considering putting in a shelf along the side wall and attaching some cleats through the panel into the framing to support this. Since FWC Service in Woodland thinks it is lack of attachments that causes this problem, this may help. Anyone else have experience in this?

C) I am also thinking of getting the ladder steps for the rear in hopes that this will help to keep this panel in place better. Again, anyone have experience in this?

D) My last question concerns moisture management in general. If this problem is related to moisture, then how do you keep moisture to a minimum when camping in cold conditions. At temps colder than 25 or so it is hard to keep the vents open wide enough in order to make sure moisture isn't condensing inside. I have the thermal package, which helps some, but water vapor condenses behind this. I always wipe it down in the morning as best I can. I also picked up a large bucket of Damp-rid that I placed in the camper during storage but I haven't noticed any benefit from this regarding the bowing of the panels.

Sorry for the long post... I'll make it up next time with happy, smiling, photos of us in our camper!

 

[cuervo]

Randonneur,

I recently removed a rear section of paneling in my new Swift for the purpose of running some wiring up the back wall and here's what I found. Numerous pieces of trim and even a section of the rear lift hinge mechanism had to have screws removed in order to bend, slip and slide the panel out, but I managed it without undue destruction. The panel material is quite flexible.

In addition to the color accented Phillips head screws the panels are fastened to the aluminum framing by small staples. My guess is that in the construction process the panels are stapled into place at first. The staples are not easy to see, sometimes just a dimple remaining on the surface of the paneling.
I used an awl and a light mallet to slide under the staple loop and lever out the staples before grabbing them with a pair of needle nose pliers. They're about a half an inch long and appear to be 'galvanized', as they should be for using into aluminum. As an aside the aluminum square tubing of the camper frame is quite soft.

I'll hazard a guess as to the cause of the bowing in your panels. The panel is obviously fitted quite tight, and perhaps over the road use has let the frame "settle in" to itself, along with travels between regions of widely differing humidity. I live on the Oregon Coast and high humidity and lots of rain are going to become an issue for maintenance I can see already.

Perhaps removing first the paneling screws and the some of the staples along at least one horizontal and one vertical dimension will allow the panel to relax enough to 'egg out' the screw holes before screwing the panel back in place. If it seems like that might not be enough then the solution may be to remove the panel and trim maybe an eighth inch off of a top and side dimension.

I'm getting a sense that the camper as a whole is slightly flexible. The exterior cladding and interior paneling may flex as the frame itself may flex as well over time and over the road use.

 

[rtpvibes]

There alittle to tight . And because nothing else is there your seeing it more .

 

[Randonneur]

Randonneur,

I recently removed a rear section of paneling in my new Swift for the purpose of running some wiring up the back wall and here's what I found. Numerous pieces of trim and even a section of the rear lift hinge mechanism had to have screws removed in order to bend, slip and slide the panel out, but I managed it without undue destruction. The panel material is quite flexible.

In addition to the color accented Phillips head screws the panels are fastened to the aluminum framing by small staples. My guess is that in the construction process the panels are stapled into place at first. The staples are not easy to see, sometimes just a dimple remaining on the surface of the paneling.
I used an awl and a light mallet to slide under the staple loop and lever out the staples before grabbing them with a pair of needle nose pliers. They're about a half an inch long and appear to be 'galvanized', as they should be for using into aluminum. As an aside the aluminum square tubing of the camper frame is quite soft.

I'll hazard a guess as to the cause of the bowing in your panels. The panel is obviously fitted quite tight, and perhaps over the road use has let the frame "settle in" to itself, along with travels between regions of widely differing humidity. I live on the Oregon Coast and high humidity and lots of rain are going to become an issue for maintenance I can see already.

Perhaps removing first the paneling screws and the some of the staples along at least one horizontal and one vertical dimension will allow the panel to relax enough to 'egg out' the screw holes before screwing the panel back in place. If it seems like that might not be enough then the solution may be to remove the panel and trim maybe an eighth inch off of a top and side dimension.

I'm getting a sense that the camper as a whole is slightly flexible. The exterior cladding and interior paneling may flex as the frame itself may flex as well over time and over the road use.

Cuervo- thanks for the detailed reply and anatomy lesson of the camper! You are far more courageous than me with your new camper and I thank you for being so. If I understand you correctly, the staples are a temporary means of fixing the panels in place during construction but now they are keeping the panel from flexing properly as it should during use? If this is the case, then isn't this something that would be noted by virtually every user unless for some reason the construction protocol has changed?

 

[Randonneur]

There alittle to tight . And because nothing else is there your seeing it more .

I was thinking that as well. When you install flooring in an environment that has a lot of humidity, you have to leave a gap to allow for expansion/contraction. Different types of panels have different expansion coefficients. It seems possible that there wasn't enough of a gap for these panels. Thanks for your reply.

 

[cuervo]

"If I understand you correctly, the staples are a temporary means of fixing the panels in place during construction but now they are keeping the panel from flexing properly as it should during use?..."

-Yes, to a point. The aluminum frame is not going to flex with humidity or temperature changes to any great degree, though it might flex somewhat being drive down the road. The problem seems to be that the panel material is expanding and contracting with changes in temperature and humidity and as a craftsman that's something of a red flag for me. The paneling is a material I'm unfamiliar with, some sort of composite halfway way between wood and plastic, maybe some blend of both. I don't understand it yet but that's part of why I deconstructed a section... wanting to know how the camper is put together and what it's made out of.

"... something that would be noted by virtually every user unless for some reason the construction protocol has changed?"

-I'm thinking it's more a matter of the individual who did the assembly that day, or the person who cut the panels to take to the guy doing the assembly... than any change in protocol. These units are being built on an assembly line, and in a brisk manner. Little changes in fit from day to day would be expected, as well as different styles of individual workers. Different batches of materials used in the construction can vary as well. There's also a big change in climactic conditions between inland California and the Pacific Northwest. If you wander down into the southwestern deserts as you and I are both inclined to do then it gets even more interesting.

I'm beginning to learn about the rig, going through all the systems and checking the fittings, tightening nuts and bolts if need be (I found an un-tightened electrical terminal in the battery box) just to get a handle on the thing.
I'll agree with the factory view that interior cabinetry and fixtures will indeed keep the paneling flat to the frame, but a half inch bulge on a two foot square section of wall isn't right. As well, if the panel material is porous enough to move that much just because it rains is suggesting it's going to deteriorate quicker over time. As a carpenter I'm more likely to find a more stable material and simply replace the existing stuff if I began to have problems.

Happy to discuss this with you!

 

[2tallDA]

Couldn't FWC install a vapor barrier or something to eliminate the under mattress moisture you guys deal with?

 

[PaulT]

Couldn't FWC install a vapor barrier or something to eliminate the under mattress moisture you guys deal with?

If the insulating material allows warm moist air to pass through, the moisture will condense on the first cold surface it encounters. With a mattress, that is likely the bottom of the cabover. Some ways to deal with this are as follows:
1. Put a plastic barrier on top of the mattress.
2. Put additional insulation with an impermeable layer under the mattress like a closed cell backpacking sleeping pad, or a layer of like Reflectix
3. Put a material that allows air to flow between the mattress and the cabover inner surface to allow the moist air to escape, such as the Froli system.
4. Provide some vertical air flow like a small crack in the turnbuckle door and slightly open a ceiling vent or pull back a corner of a window.

We use a combination of Reflectix covering the cabover platform plus a couple of closed cell backpacking pads on the Reflectix under the mattress and opening the vent over the bed a little. We have not been having condensation problems in the mattress. The wall liner still gets damp but dries fairly well with ventilation after we get up, especially if we run the furnace to warm up the interior.

Try things until you find something that works for you in the climate where you camp.

Paul

 

[longhorn1]

Moisture has been a topic every year. There are numerous posts over the years. We use Marine Hyper-Vent. It is cut to fit after the bed pull-out has been extended. The Hyper-vent takes the 1/2" lip out of play, no sore hips. Lift up the Hyper-vent and slide the pull-out back in. Great airflow and no moisture issues. jd

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

I see the price is$12 per foot.Is that the lowest around?
Frank

 

[RC Pilot Jim]

Randon...
Contact Four wheel camper because your Fleet is under warranty by the manufacture.

 

[longhorn1]

Been 4 years since we bought the stuff. Cut 2 pieces and rounded the outside corner. Well worth it in my book.

 

[smlobx]

As a builder of energy efficient homes I was concerned with the thermal bridging that takes place when using a metal frame and the resulting moisture issues that result from this method of construction.

I have often wondered why FWC doesn't use an insulating vapor barrier like this
http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/construction-materials/building-envelope-systems/brands/water-barrier-systems/products/Thermawrap-r5.html

to minimize this issue and create a much better environment to live in.

 

[Randonneur]

Couldn't FWC install a vapor barrier or something to eliminate the under mattress moisture you guys deal with?

The mattress doesn't seem to be a problem. There is an impervious layer on the underside anyway. I stored the mattress in the main compartment since I was told to do so, but not sure if it made much of a difference. The mattress itself did not appear damp to me.

 

[Randonneur]

Randon...
Contact Four wheel camper because your Fleet is under warranty by the manufacture.

Thanks RC Pilot. I did and they indicated that this was normal as far as they could tell. I live in Seattle and I don't really have any plans to drive to Woodland but I may have to since the distributor I bought it from in Portland is out of business.

 

[Randonneur]

As a builder of energy efficient homes I was concerned with the thermal bridging that takes place when using a metal frame and the resulting moisture issues that result from this method of construction.

I have often wondered why FWC doesn't use an insulating vapor barrier like this
http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/construction-materials/building-envelope-systems/brands/water-barrier-systems/products/Thermawrap-r5.html

to minimize this issue and create a much better environment to live in.

I get your point of view but I don't have any idea whether this is practical for this type of construction. My understanding is that Tyvek in a house acts like Gortex on a jacket in that it keeps water from outside- out and lets water moisture from inside- out. Sounds like a reasonable idea but as with everything, there is probably a cost consideration that could make the final product out of sight for many of us.

 

[Randonneur]

-I'm thinking it's more a matter of the individual who did the assembly that day, or the person who cut the panels to take to the guy doing the assembly... than any change in protocol. These units are being built on an assembly line, and in a brisk manner. Little changes in fit from day to day would be expected, as well as different styles of individual workers. Different batches of materials used in the construction can vary as well. There's also a big change in climactic conditions between inland California and the Pacific Northwest. If you wander down into the southwestern deserts as you and I are both inclined to do then it gets even more interesting.

Cuervo- this is something that I was wondering as well. I was told by the Service Department at FWH when I asked that it was unlikely due to the nature of their process controls. I appreciate your insights.

 

[Randonneur]

If the insulating material allows warm moist air to pass through, the moisture will condense on the first cold surface it encounters. With a mattress, that is likely the bottom of the cabover. Some ways to deal with this are as follows:
1. Put a plastic barrier on top of the mattress.
2. Put additional insulation with an impermeable layer under the mattress like a closed cell backpacking sleeping pad, or a layer of like Reflectix
3. Put a material that allows air to flow between the mattress and the cabover inner surface to allow the moist air to escape, such as the Froli system.
4. Provide some vertical air flow like a small crack in the turnbuckle door and slightly open a ceiling vent or pull back a corner of a window.

We use a combination of Reflectix covering the cabover platform plus a couple of closed cell backpacking pads on the Reflectix under the mattress and opening the vent over the bed a little. We have not been having condensation problems in the mattress. The wall liner still gets damp but dries fairly well with ventilation after we get up, especially if we run the furnace to warm up the interior.

Try things until you find something that works for you in the climate where you camp.

Paul

Thanks for these tips Paul. I've been thinking of putting something under the mattress and Reflectix sounds like the right material. I've got some old backpacking foam pads too so might as well use these again.

 

[cuervo]

Been 4 years since we bought the stuff. Cut 2 pieces and rounded the outside corner. Well worth it in my book.

Thanks longhorn1, this sounds perfect, I ordered a length.
I was rambling around my brain trying to invent the ideal material and here it is.

 

[klahanie]

Randonneur, our camper was built 20 years ago and is not a shell so I can't be of much help with the new panel issue. Agree though, the bowing out is excessive.

I can speak a bit about moisture management though ...

I'm in Metro Vancouver, it's been near freezing and foggy all day, with humidity around 100%. The vehicles in the carport are covered in water droplets. Moisture was the first thing I thought of when I read your OP.

Under the foam mattress we use a loose strip of reflectix and three thermarest pads, laid tightly side by side. I always check for condensation in the morning and sometimes find it - on either side of the reflectix - also, on the soft walls of the overcab area. Point is, condensation can be an issue in these campers especially in damp, cold weather.

It's disappointing to read that you find condensation behind the "arctic" liner. I don't know how easy it is to wipe that dry but would be concerned for where the water goes if it was not removed.

The wiping cloths I'd try to dry outside or in the cab when driving.

We don't really run the furnace at night anymore so the inside and outside temps are similar, seems to help reduce condensation. Ventilation is key, opening a turnbuckle door is a great idea. We crack both roof vents, the front slider and open the corner of both upper rear windows - fortunately we have the outer window storm flaps. Air circulation within the camper is also important.

Further to PaulT's post, I try to run the furnace every morning that I find condensation. Let the camper bake a spell and then let that warm, moist air escape thru the roof vents before dropping the top to leave. Do the same at home, end of trip, unless the sun is warm enough to do same. I think parking in the sun also helps, even on a cool day, to help remove moisture from inside the camper walls (and out from behind the siding).


Good luck with your panels, I hope you get it sorted out !