Is there a broader market for a hard side pop-up

[ardvark]

To date I believe that Alaskan TCs are the only ones selling hard side popups at a price point the majority of buyers can enter. I know there is some really high end stuff out there, but I doubt very many people can spend north of 100K for a TC. The demand for Alaskans is obvious by the number of folks searching for used ones, but I wonder if demand would increase still further with some changes in design.

So I have been toying with the idea of building a prototype popup with the idea of bringing it to market. From my previous work, I know component distributors, etc., and my mechanical skills are at least reasonable. There are features of the Alaskan I would change to appeal to a broader market, namely those who are not die hard off-roaders, but would like some of that flexibility. My goal would be to compete at a higher volume than Alaskan currently generates.

Here are a couple of questions. How important do you think it is it to have the ultra-low front profile of the Alaskan? The design I have in mind would have a higher front profile, although still well below a conventional hard side. Secondly, do you think the addition of a wet bath would attract more buyers?

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

My 2¢ worth. I like the Alaskan Campers a lot, but if they had a fiber glass floor tub and top, they would be even better. Low profile is very important. A wet bath, in my opinion is a waste. I’d even opt out of having a water heater, unless it was a tankless design like the Truma. An Alaskan design with Northern Lite construction methods and materials would have my interest.

 

[ardvark]

The reason I ask about the the front profile is I don't like the way the front stores and opens. We have had to raise our Hallmark in some real driving rains at times and I would hate to have to do that with an Alaskan. It seems to me the inside would get soaked before you could get the fronts walls opened out. Could be wrong, I don't know. My wife and I have been searching around ourselves and then we began thinking that only way we would get what we want would be to build it ourselves and one idea led to another.

My overall thought is features are what is driving the RV market overall right now with a whole new breed of buyers. When my wife and I, growing up in RVing families started out in the 50 and 60s, things were pretty basic regardless of the type of RV. Before retiring last year, everything I worked on was going to remote controls and multiple flat screens. You can run the whole darn RV from your smart phone now on some units. I am thinking in terms of something kind of mid-range basic and crazy complex.

 

[klahanie]

... to appeal to a broader market, namely those who are not die hard off-roaders, but would like some of that flexibility.

Here are a couple of questions. How important do you think it is it to have the ultra-low front profile of the Alaskan? The design I have in mind would have a higher front profile, although still well below a conventional hard side. Secondly, do you think the addition of a wet bath would attract more buyers?

My .02, Low profile is the #1 benefit of a pop up. Agreeded, the Alaskan folding sides are less than ideal but imo the buyer accepts them because of other features (including hard sides, hydraulic roof lift and a very nice interior). It follows then than that a popup overcab camper designed taller but without soft or folding sides would need offsetting features and benefits superior the current offerings.

I think a wet bath would be desirable and an important difference to the Alaskan.

I'm curious on your thoughts about this new breed of RV buyers - mentioned in post 3. Are you referring to "younger folks" or current owners ?

Do you see a future with sufficient people interested in expressly owning and driving something to "the outdoors" ?

 

[ardvark]

Now living in Tennessee, what I see happening here in the East is a bit different than the West as space in more limited. However, I think increasing numbers of folks are tiring or will tire of "camping" on top of one another in campgrounds, and not only that but the industry is taking an interest in promoting truck campers, which they did not do in the past, I think numbers will increase.

However, I think the new breed is much different than perhaps those of us who have been camping in the past. All categories of buyers are increasingly less willing to do without creature comforts like a wet bath or a flat screen and how that will impact those of us who scoff at those types of things remains to be seen.

I don't want to sound like I am taking shots at Alaskan campers because I am not. I really like the interiors and hard sides, heck yes, but in my opinion there is no way the new wave of RV owners will make do with no bath and the first time it rains hard when popping the top, I think there will be unhappiness.

So suppose there was a way to design a hard pop top that opened without the potential for flooding the interior and if there a wet bath, I think it would appeal to a wider market. At present, as I see it, those of us who truck camp do without creature comforts that most buyers would not consider. What if the compromises were fewer?

I am not sure about any of this and may be miles off. I think I know the RV market well except for truck campers, but I keep seeing posts from folks asking if there is anyone else besides Alaskan that makes hard side pop-ups. What if there was? I bet folks would be willing to go a little taller which I honestly do not think would prove much of a handicap for most users in exchange for some other features.

 

[DrJ]

I’d personally love to see more hard sided pop ups.
Siesta also used to make a hard sized pop up.

Check out 68 Siesta. He has a hard sided pop up and is restoring another one.

 

[hoyden]

I'm with Wandering Sagebrush. No wet bath or water heater. I lived in my FWC (Fleet) for five months and there are showers at campgrounds, much easier than using in a camper (and no worry about humidity/wetness inside) and I never once used my water heater. I just heated water on the stove if I wanted hot water.

But a hard sided popup would be nice. I bet it'd be quieter to sleep in than the soft side, less wind issue, and less light infiltration.

 

[ardvark]

My underlying thought is what would be the argument against a hard side pop-up if you could resolve potential weight and height issues? Aren't most of us using soft side pop-ups because there is no comparable hard side?

 

[Vic Harder]

My underlying thought is what would be the argument against a hard side pop-up if you could resolve potential weight and height issues? Aren't most of us using soft side pop-ups because there is no comparable hard side?

Don't forget - durability off road, weight, low centre of gravity, customizability, and the great support on this forum!

 

[cwdtmmrs]

Amazing how opinions differ. I think a wet bath and shower are a must have. I use the tankless water heater and inside shower in my FWC every day, but I don't camp in campgrounds etither.

cwd

 

[hoyden]

I try not to camp in campgrounds and much prefer boondocking, but in my five+ months living on the road, I found that when I really wanted a shower I might just go stay at a campground, or often there was only campground as an option (no places to boondock, like here in Missouri it's super scarce), or I was visiting at a friend's house....

And I always had the option of hooking up the shower nozzle to the exterior of the camper.
Now with no water heater, that's potentially less comfortable, but that depends on the outside temps too.

But I'm also not an every-day showerer like a lot of folks are, so it's less important to me.

 

[klahanie]

... and not only that but the industry is taking an interest in promoting truck campers, which they did not do in the past, I think numbers will increase.

Interesting, slide in campers have "always" been relatively popular in BC, less so east of here from what I've seen on our travels. Trailers have been getting bigger and better appointed but are a different beast, in part I'd say because they can be used as a (more) comfortable alternative to a traditional home.

So suppose there was a way to design a hard pop top that opened without the potential for flooding the interior and if there a wet bath, I think it would appeal to a wider market. At present, as I see it, those of us who truck camp do without creature comforts that most buyers would not consider. What if the compromises were fewer?

Largely agree. Personally I'd welcome better insulation to extend our cold weather camping. That could be satisfied with a contemporary hardside made from composites but a lower profile would get my attention ! But I have no interest in camping and watching a screen even if next time, camping is watching a screen (virtual reality).


I realise you're not stuck on Alaskan but there is an online article about that company's recent new ownership to be found on Truck Campers Mag site. If you haven't seen it, you may find it interesting

I have no idea of the future of RVs, but I'll say I think the huge increase in pop up sales, best exemplified by FWC had a lot to do with a golden period of exposure on the then emerging internet/social media. Now I see more and more RTTs - unheard of around here until recently - and I wonder if they are creeping into the pop ups market share ?

Keep us posted !

 

[Beach]

One advantage to the hard side pop up that appeals to me would be a reduction in condensation. I would make the shower optional,a modular design would let you replace it with a cabinet system or porti potty closet if the buyer did not want it. A cassette toilet as an intergral part of the wetbath would be nice. You have a lot of ex tent campers and back packers on this site so you will get quite a spread on answers as to what some consider needed in a camper.

 

[rando]

One question for you would be where do you see this hard sided pop up fitting into the RV market hierarchy? I am assuming you are not thinking of a 'mass market' product with the most 'standard' RV bling for the least $ (Palomino etc). But are you thinking the 'utilitarian market', with a focus on light weight an longevity, with less bling for more $$ (FWC, ATC etc)? Or are you looking a the boutique market, with ruggedness and features (XP, Earthroamer etc) with a corresponding price point?

I am thinking as a small scale new player, you will be limited to the boutique market as your production costs would be high, at least initially. From a market standpoint, the problem here is that there are just not that many customers that are willing to pay much more for less (ask Alaskan and XP about this). Look at the mainstream RV market as and example, it seems to me that the only number that matters is $/sqft and $/bling feature, which has lead to the current low point in mass market RV quality and longevity. But this is all speculation, as I am not expert on the RV industry.


From my personal standpoint, I could be interested in hard sided pop-up sometime in the future - but it would need to be light weight and low profile. I have no interest in the current offerings in hard sided truck campers - for me you loose so much capability with this sort of camper due to the high profile, terrible COG and and overall weight, that it has almost no advantage over a 4x4 or even a lifted 2wd sprinter van camper. I would even consider a flatbed Alaskan, but my turn off is the aging design. If someone would make a composite panel version with a similar operating mechanism to the Alaskan, with a modern interior and materials, I would definitely be interested. The issue with the front part of the pop up seems relatively easy to address. You could add a FWC like soft liner that goes on the outside of the hard side bed walls that would provide weather tightness while you fold up the walls.

I also think a flatbed design would also be a wise choice. It seems that FWC is selling flatbeds like hotcakes, even though they are significantly more expensive. Just from my interactions on WtW and with people we meet out and about - the market for these sort of campers has shifted a little. It is no longer dominated by hunters and weekenders who camp on the weekend and use their truck for work during the week. Now there seem to be many more travelers/climbers/hikers/bikers who want (and can afford) a capable camper, but don't need a pickup truck. This is particularly true as you get into the 'boutique' market and are competing with XP and EarthRoamer. I think the flatbeds also play to the 'expo' crowd who at least aspirationaly want an 'overland' vehicle than looks like an 'overland' vehicle, not a work truck loaded up for a weekend of camping.

Any, that is way too much rambling from me,

 

[ardvark]

Certainly a lot to think about. It is hard to know who would buy a hard side pop up. My overall thought keeps coming back to, unless absolute weight and minimum height were the overriding factors what other advantages do soft sides have? Obviously I own a Hallmark, but if I could have a hard side that was not too tall or too heavy (I know, I know relative terms), I would change in a heart beat.

As I see it, soft sides exist because it is much simpler to build a soft pop-up than a hard side pop up. I also think it is easier to build a conventional hard side than a hard side pop-up, and I don't expect a major manufacturer to jump in as the current market for truck campers is too small.

Again for folks who feel strongly soft sides are the only way to go or own an Alaskan, i mean nothing I say as insulting. I'm just brainstorming and it may lead to nothing at all. However, I keep thinking back to how some really well known names in the RV world started out building in the chicken coop in their back yard.

By the way, I'm not sure how many folks know there was a prototype built by a major RV manufacturer for a hard side pop-up fifth wheel camper. several years back. It was the only one I have ever seen and I worked on it for the owner at one of the dealerships I did work for years ago. No reason that same technology wouldn't work in a fifth wheel.

 

[Vic Harder]

Certainly a lot to think about. It is hard to know who would buy a hard side pop up. My overall thought keeps coming back to, unless absolute weight and minimum height were the overriding factors what other advantages do soft sides have?

Weight and height are a big deal for me. I wonder if the question can be turned around... what advantage to hard sides have?

 

[ardvark]

Having never owned one, I can't speak definitely to that question. Maybe someone with an Alaskan would better be able to respond.

I would like a lower profile for times when the wind is whistling, but it doesn't have to be as low as some TCs are now.I think there may also be less noise when camped, which I know is a non issue if you are boondocking away from others. For us I think there may also be a sense of being more secure.

As I said, I could be way off track with this idea entirely, but it sure seems like there are a good many folks searching for Alaskans and asking if there are alternatives as I bounce around the Internet.

 

[2trout]

Yes, I think that there would be a demand for a hard side pop up.

But, and I'm casting a broad net here, I feel that those who frequent these pages are drawn to the Four Wheel, All Terrain, and Phoenix, ect. soft side popups because of the lightness and low profile designs. We feel these factors allow us to travel into remote areas more easily than a standard hard side truck camper. I don't think it is the soft side that draws us.

I do think that there would be a demand for a hard side pop up especially a pop up design that could fix some of the problems (perceived and real) that soft sides have - leaks and not particularly warm in winter. I feel that the whole pop up portion of these campers could use a complete redesign to fix these issues.

You know the saying...."Build a Better Mousetrap...." Low profile, light, water tight roof and sides. Do that, and you have a market.

Trout

 

[ardvark]

I think my first step will be to get my drafting board out of the attic and do some drawing. See if I can come up with something. Then make a rough prototype just for my own use. Maybe I could call it a "cross-over" between a soft side and hard side.

 

[longhorn1]

+2 with Mr. Sage, Northern Lite top and bottom fiberglass mold. Maybe as some one mention a inside soft side that can be velcro to keep water tight when raising or lowering or the front is 1 piece and lowers below the bottom of the overhang. My 2 cents. jd