Lithium Battery advise

[klahanie]

Stokeme, I like your attitude. Thanks for the positive post. I've found the best way to learn about something, and remember it, is tackling it hands on. Even if the results are less then hoped for, one benefits from the effort exerted.

Sounds like weight reduction was a driver for you as, I believe, it was for the OP. We each have our own objectives and wants. Some want to stay the course with the current wisdom, but thank goodness for those who want to try to see if there is a better way and are willing to try to find it.

Like that member who posted up his LFP battery build and those RV folks in the link earlier, sharing project and findings gives this site broader interest and adds to the knowledge of many who frequent here.

 

[Stokeme]

Hey Bill, here is reply to the 24V query ..... I want a simple plug & play option, with a portable flex panel, using the solar plug on the camper rear. Roof in parallel, gives me that option. With the roof in series, you need a separate dedicated (2nd) solar controller for the rear plug. I have not needed my portable though. I have brought it with me every time if the Sun on my roof is an issue. When I go to Alaska in a few years, I will probably add a third panel to my roof.
My Old Town 119 canoe is slowly being outfitted to 12V power with the option of a kayak paddle. I did not want a heavy battery. I wanted a F150, not a 250, with the Ecco Boost engine. It tows my 15’ aluminum boat & camper with ease over any elevation. My goal is to be light even with my planned build out.
Correction to my solar roof setup ..... I used the FWC 90 degree Sae pigtail to connect to my roof plug & then spliced MC4 connectors to the pigtail to connect to my MC4 wired panels. Be aware of the polarity. The roof solar wire lead in my battery box is connected to the 100 ah battery, which itself is connected to the 50, in parallel. Obviously I am committed to Lithium. I have researched & am being careful to keep my System healthy. I have bought into the kind of logic Rando touches on. I theoretically should get 8 years out of this System. It would then compare well with AGM. There is some risk & certainly $ involved. I had specific goals in mind. I would not go back to pre-Lithium DeWalt ..... I would not recommend getting LiFePo4 w/o BMS. My guess would be the problems encountered depicted in links here have not had this in place.
The WTW Forum has been exceptional, it has been a great pool of experiences & info.

 

[ottorogers]

"My thinking exactly. My impression is that even the battery manufacturers do not fully understand them. And I am not convinced they are the battery of the future for campers. They may be for electric cars, but those have a climate controlled environment for the battery. We are stuck with a tiny battery box with minimal ventilation."

==========================================


A non-problem solution that could cost $15 per pound for 100 lb less weight...temp [high or low], fire and a floating charge dislike issues along with cost make quality AGMs look more and more like the right battery for a FWC...hey, most FWCs are doing great with the AGMs...and none have the power needs of a motor home bus or small city...

Of course I could be wrong.....

Phil

I think you are right!!!!

 

[ottorogers]

I will weigh in w/my experience so far with Lithium. I have a 2018 Grandby Shell on a 2018 LB HD Ford F-150. Heater, stove, couch.
I purchased a 100Ah & a 50Ah Lifepo4 with internal BMS & Bluetooth. My 50Ah will double with my canoe to power electric trolling motor. Weight was a concern with me. Handling & storage. Wiring as well. I disconnected the FWC power lead from my truck battery, so my 12V System is isolated unto itself. My 12V draw is Led lights, furnace fan, Dometic CFX 50 W. I will be adding a 1gpm Shurflo on demand water pump for a Ronco 7 gal tank.
I have two120W Solar blvd flex panels mounted on a custom build aluminum tube frame mounted N to S in between my two vents. There is room for a third panel. The frame is mounted to my Yakima tracks. Everything is run in parallel. Roof setup weighs 15 lbs, less than 20.
My initial 3 trips, with my coldest last week, Lundy to Monitor, has not used more than 10% to 12% of the System. The Bluetooth is really cool with my phone. It gives me overall usage for both batteries & can look at the individual cells as well. No external battery monitor needed. I have a Victron Smart Solar 100/30 mppt. My controller is mounted inside my battery box. It gives me daily monitoring plus 30 day history, again, Bluetooth is really cool with this too. My usage seems to be replenished in just a few hours usually from late morning to early afternoon.
A Renogy sae roof coupler to two mc4 y branch connectors runs my roof in parallel. I live in the SF Bay Area, so long term cold will not be a detriment. But it can get warm, it was hotter than normal this summer. I need a shade canopy. I did all wiring myself, idiot proof.
I was given great help in my learning process from Vic, Craig & Rando in particular. I was, & still am, not well versed in electronics. I have learned a lot. I wanted to keep things very simple & off grid. I purposely did not go with the FWC build in order to be light. I did splurge on these 2 batteries but did get small initial discount & a better discount on the 50. I am really happy so far. I am a guinea pig with this setup.
Hope this helps any considerations.

really appreciate your write up, I am leaning towards the factory Deka dual 6V AGM batteries that come with the FWC Grandby, for simplicity, when I pick up my Grandy in a few weeks it will be ready to go, no hassles and no worries (providing nothing is defective from the factory), it is so hard to wrap your head around lithium, so many complications. My second choice has always been AGM 6V golf cart batteries, like FWC uses, yes they are heavy, I could save 100 LBS with lithium, but so many unknowns with lithium, no simple answers, no guarantees. Glad it worked out for you, but I am to apprehensive at this time to go with Lithium.

 

[smlobx]

Stoke could you tell us which brand of Lithium batteries you're using?

 

[ottorogers]

https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Lithium-Iron-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B07FDHRP45/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1539723288&sr=8-2&keywords=170AH+lithium

This one has BMS, and is said to be "drop in", no need to change anything in your RV, I may go for this, sure like the idea of 170 AH, of lithium, with 160 watts of solar I could disconnect the camper 110V battery charger and the truck battery charging connection, just hook up to solar charging only I would think??

 

[Zirdu]

Hey Bill, here is reply to the 24V query ..... I want a simple plug & play option, with a portable flex panel, using the solar plug on the camper rear. Roof in parallel, gives me that option. With the roof in series, you need a separate dedicated (2nd) solar controller for the rear plug. I have not needed my portable though. I have brought it with me every time if the Sun on my roof is an issue. When I go to Alaska in a few years, I will probably add a third panel to my roof.
My Old Town 119 canoe is slowly being outfitted to 12V power with the option of a kayak paddle. I did not want a heavy battery. I wanted a F150, not a 250, with the Ecco Boost engine. It tows my 15’ aluminum boat & camper with ease over any elevation. My goal is to be light even with my planned build out.
Correction to my solar roof setup ..... I used the FWC 90 degree Sae pigtail to connect to my roof plug & then spliced MC4 connectors to the pigtail to connect to my MC4 wired panels. Be aware of the polarity. The roof solar wire lead in my battery box is connected to the 100 ah battery, which itself is connected to the 50, in parallel. Obviously I am committed to Lithium. I have researched & am being careful to keep my System healthy. I have bought into the kind of logic Rando touches on. I theoretically should get 8 years out of this System. It would then compare well with AGM. There is some risk & certainly $ involved. I had specific goals in mind. I would not go back to pre-Lithium DeWalt ..... I would not recommend getting LiFePo4 w/o BMS. My guess would be the problems encountered depicted in links here have not had this in place.
The WTW Forum has been exceptional, it has been a great pool of experiences & info.

"With the roof in series, you need a separate dedicated (2nd) solar controller for the rear plug."

I solved this problem by making a custom portable panel out of two square 50 watt 12 volt panels and wiring it in series, so it puts out 24 volts, just like my series wired panels on the roof. That was both the roof top solar and the portable solar have the same voltage, and can use the same controller.

 

[Zirdu]

Hey Bill, here is reply to the 24V query ..... I want a simple plug & play option, with a portable flex panel, using the solar plug on the camper rear. Roof in parallel, gives me that option. With the roof in series, you need a separate dedicated (2nd) solar controller for the rear plug. I have not needed my portable though. I have brought it with me every time if the Sun on my roof is an issue. When I go to Alaska in a few years, I will probably add a third panel to my roof.
My Old Town 119 canoe is slowly being outfitted to 12V power with the option of a kayak paddle. I did not want a heavy battery. I wanted a F150, not a 250, with the Ecco Boost engine. It tows my 15’ aluminum boat & camper with ease over any elevation. My goal is to be light even with my planned build out.
Correction to my solar roof setup ..... I used the FWC 90 degree Sae pigtail to connect to my roof plug & then spliced MC4 connectors to the pigtail to connect to my MC4 wired panels. Be aware of the polarity. The roof solar wire lead in my battery box is connected to the 100 ah battery, which itself is connected to the 50, in parallel. Obviously I am committed to Lithium. I have researched & am being careful to keep my System healthy. I have bought into the kind of logic Rando touches on. I theoretically should get 8 years out of this System. It would then compare well with AGM. There is some risk & certainly $ involved. I had specific goals in mind. I would not go back to pre-Lithium DeWalt ..... I would not recommend getting LiFePo4 w/o BMS. My guess would be the problems encountered depicted in links here have not had this in place.
The WTW Forum has been exceptional, it has been a great pool of experiences & info.

"With the roof in series, you need a separate dedicated (2nd) solar controller for the rear plug."

I solved this problem by making a custom portable panel out of two square 50 watt 12 volt panels and wiring it in series, so it puts out 24 volts, just like my series wired panels on the roof. That was both the roof top solar and the portable solar have the same voltage, and can use the same controller.

 

[Stokeme]

Nice! Can you comment on the pros or any cons with 24V? Any personal data that you can compare to 12V? I know in theory, somewhat, but any real world comparisons? I will not be afraid to ask a stupid question ... does the controller convert the 24V to your 12V batteries? Or, do you have 24V batteries? How is the voltage altered, if it is, to compatibility?

 

[Stokeme]

My Lithium Battery brand will open a small can of worms ..... first, I have to salute cdbrow1 for being the prospector, I jumped on the covered wagon ..... His initial foray is touched on by longhorn1 in his post dated 10/14/18. That is my 1st link copied below here. The 2nd link is when I jump in & painfully make greenhorn attempts at understanding Lithium LiFePo4. The third link is my further journey.
My bottom line take aways ... LiFePo4 is the Lithium material you want. Do not get golf cart lithium batteries or RV non-LiFePo4 lithium batteries. Get AGM instead. Get internal BMS in your LiFePo4 Battery. If you can get internal Bluetooth definitely do it. Be able to monitor the Battery with its own inherent internal diagnostic capabilities.
If you check out these links you will see I have StarkPower batteries. I purchased them because they had Bluetooth & were slightly less expensive. I found a 5% coupon code for the first one & then finagled a 15% coupon code for the second one. The customer service was great. Patient & informative with good advice. cdbrow1 offered some real world use about his which were still working great. That was enough for me, I was ready to buy into Lithium. Sadly, the StarkPower business model of direct sales hit a wall after 10 years or so. They closed shop about 6 months after I bought mine. Also sad there is no further company resource support, but my batteries have been great so far.
So in present time, I am looking for a small LiFePo4 Battery to run a 18L Dometic 12v fridge as a freezer. It will be in my truck, using the truck’s 12V when we are driving. I have looked for Bluetooth capability & could only find one brand, Eon (e-on). Here is their older webpage link. http://e-onbatteries.com/12v-100ah-bluetooth-enabled-lifepo4-smart-battery.html
I say older webpage link because they are now moving to a 48V module as their main business thrust. They are not set up online to do direct sales anymore. But, they are still in the 12V business selling 100 to 200 aH Batteries. They run their product through distributors by the pallet. If I get promised educational info sent to me, I will share it. I talked to Justin on the phone and he seemed amendable to drop shipping single batteries in some fashion possibly through a distributor. It is worth checking out in my opinion. The 800 # is on the link.
There are definitely good suppliers, who do not offer internal Bluetooth, but do offer good BMS batteries. Without It though, you should add a battery monitor. Victron makes a good, very reasonable one.
If I get an Eon Battery I will report on it. I am no spokesman. I am just sharing my journey.

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/9949-adding-a-lithium-ion-battery-to-fwc/?hl=%20lithium%20%20batteries

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/11305-lifepo4-lithium-ion-battery-project-photos/?hl=%20lifepo4%20%20battery

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/16031-12v-lifepo4-batteries-choices-education-2date/?hl=%2Blifepo4+%2Bbattery

 

[ottorogers]

As Craig said, check out the Battleborn LiFePo4 batteries made in Reno. Their GC2 form factor is 12v 100 aH & just above your limit. Their other 100aH may fit & is just at your limit.

They have configuration info for Victron & Trimetric solar and told me the Iota DLS with IQ4-Lifepo is acceptable. It’s important to verify that any charging system is compatible with the battery you choose.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/

I have been looking at the Battleborn also. I haven’t (yet) destroyed my factory AGM’s & thus haven’t had to pry open my wallet.

Paul

Solar controller has to be swapped out, 110V converter charging system has to be disconnected or swapped out, I have a brand new FWC, I am not doing that, so I am going with 2 AGM 6V batteries, they are already installed in the camper, and are proven, and the system is setup for them

 

[Zirdu]

Stokeme: Thanks for the link to the e-on brand of lithium battery. They look like a good deal. They seem to have a close equivalent to the LifeBlue 200AH battery I have been looking at, but for only $1,560 vs. $1,895. They also come with the internal bluetooth monitor.

Regarding your questions of going "24 V" vs "12 V", you should know that the "nominal" 12V solar panels actually put out 18 or more volts. This makes sense since to actually charge up a "12 Volt" battery you will need to charge it at a lot more than 12 volts, maybe at around 14.5 volts. And the 18 volts put out by the "12V" panels will lose voltage in the wire from the panel to the controller.

So I am wiring two of the nominal "12 Volt" panels in series, giving me an output voltage of 18x2 = 36 or more volts. (I often get over 40 volts on my system) This higher voltage loses less power in the wire from the panels on the roof to the controller. To do this to charge a "12 Volt" battery you need a MPPT controller, which is able to handle the higher voltage and reduce it to what the 12 V battery (AGM or Lithium) needs to be properly charged.

 

[ottorogers]

http://e-onbatteries.com/12v-200ah-bluetooth-enabled-lifepo4-smart-battery.html

200 AH, built in BMS, drop in swap from dual 6V GC2, just disconnect the 110V shore power converter, use solar controller compatible with LiFePo4 lithium batteries, says up to 14.6V charging, so I should be OK with my Tundra's alternator charging system

​NO FREE shipping here though, cheapest shipping option is $45, others offer free shipping

What am I missing???

 

[Stokeme]

The big “IF” here is whether this company will fill an order for a single Battery. You need to call the 800#, talk to Justin & see, if they will enable a sale. I am looking at a 25 aH Battery which he is discontinuing. They are going to keep a 100 to 200 aH Battery going, but shipping & fulfillment is the question. I really like the look of the e-on, so I hope it pans out.
Here is what you could be missing. You may need answers to come from someone else on WTW, or FWC, whoever has the knowledge .....
You may Not have to disconnect your 110V.
BE SURE to use a compatible LiFePo4 Lithium mppt Solar controller, either a 100/20 or 100/30. I really like my Victron, if you need a replacement. Spend the little extra & get the Smart Bluetooth enabled model. No dongle needed.
BE 100% sure your alternator & truck Battery connection will not surge & destroy your Expensive Battery. 14.6 V is not the resting V when fully charged & at rest. Possible surge was not a chance I was willing to take.
From all the info on those links I posted, I gleaned another truck connective issue ..... when your truck is at rest & not running, your truck battery will bleed your LiFePo4. The LiFePo4 resting V will be higher than your truck resting V & it makes sense that your truck would drain the higher V connection.
My decision was not to trust my truck alternator w/o an intermediary balance control. I also did not want my truck to drain my LiFePo4. I found this B2B Charger module which would moderate the possible issues, imho, inherent to a truck connection.
https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/sterlingpower12volt-12volt-30ampbatterytobatterycharger.aspx
I eventually decided I did not want to spend the $$ on getting one or wiring one. So, I disconnected & isolated my Camper solar/battery system. I think LiFePo4 charges faster & more efficiently. No issues so far.
I got the larger Victron controller so I could add panels if needed. My energy usage so far is fairly low, & on purpose. It will probably increase some but not too much. I started with a Shell from scratch. Nothing to replace or reconfigure. Much to my wife’s dismay. I will obtain a buildout from a friend, my hope & my wife’s fear, it can not happen soon enough.