Northstar 850SC winter camping

[MikeR]

Hello everyone, even though I just registered and this is my first post I have followed the forums for some time just never felt the urge to contribute till now. This is an informative post for those owning a newer, after they started using electric lifts for the roof, 850SC that may find themselves in colder climates. (this may apply to the 650SC as well) I found this out I guess the hard way and it was a complete suprise, not necessarily a pleasant suprise at the time.

I bought my 2020 850SC this last February and of course have had the usual warranty issues, all but one have had to do with the components used in the camper, the same components used by the vast majority of RV's on the road today. My first night after picking up the camper it got down to around 20 degrees, no issues. I have had it in temperatures in the mid 20's to low 30's a hand full of times until my recent trip to Montana no issues.

On my most recent trip to Montana the first night it got down to around 15 and stayed that way all the next day. I made very sure to keep the inside of the camper above 32 degrees because I had water in the tank and the camper has the SUB Zero package so I figured I would be good to go. Well the second evening, still right around 15, as I parked for the night the furnace again decided to quit blowing warm air, the sixth time since I have owned the camper. Like every other time this has happened I removed the sail switch, replaced the same sail switch in the same sail switch spot, and the furnace was good to go again till it decided to do it again a couple days later, no suprise here, just frustration.

Anyway so I got the heat going, also started my Buddy heater, which I cannot say enough good about and thought I was set. Well, when I went to wash my hands with nice warm water, I had no water, frozen water lines. It took me minutes to try and wrap my mind around this, how could this happen? I kept the inside of the box, camper, above freezing where all the water was, (where I thought all the water was), the whole time it was below freezing and I had the SUB Zero package so what the hell?

Well after some tracing and investigation I figured out that Northstar ran the water lines from the water pump, water heater, outside the heated, insulated portion of the camper around the refrigerator to the kitchen faucet and did not insulate them. The only thing protecting these two water lines from the elements was a small, plastic, vented cover to access the bottom of the fridge which provides no R value that I could think of. Kinda frustrating. Anyway after a few hours in the nice MT sun the next day I thawed but froze again the next night cause it was down to around 11 again. I did wrap the water lines with a couple of hand towels but not enough.

All I'm saying is if you have one of these campers and plan on going where its going to get cold take precautions. Good news, even though the water lines froze two nights, I got the issue figured out the third, no damage was done. FYI

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Hi mike, welcome to WTW!

It sounds like you’re pretty familiar with the little idiosyncrasies of campers, and I’m sure your contributions will be greatly appreciated.

 

[DanoT]

Propane furnaces draw both outside air and inside cabin air for combustion. My camper is not a Northstar so may or may not apply but I initially had problems with not enough cabin air getting to the furnace intake. Solved by putting a grate on the cupboard door beside the furnace.

I do a lot of winter camping but I do not run my plumbing system in winter because having a temp of 0*C/32*F in one part of the camper in no way assures that the temp will be the same throughout a RV.

I fill the flush water tank of my porta-potti with RV antifreeze.

 

[MikeR]

Thank you for the welcome Mr. Sagebrush!

DanoT, thanks for the thought on the furnace, I will definitely keep it in mind but my popup is so drafty I don't think that could be an issue, but I will keep it in mind and try it next time it doesn't want to blow warm air. Like I said the only thing I have to do to get it going is to pull the sail switch out and put it right back in??

Also I appreciate the thoughts on the freezing issue and with other campers that I have had that did not have an arctic package or a sub zero package I usually went dry as well. Even with an arctic package or sub zero package I take out drawers and leave cupboards open to allow heat to get to the water lines and make sure lines are not against the camper walls, etc. This one with the lines outside caught me though, live and learn . Thanks again for the thoughts!

 

[Mtn Mike]

I have a new-to-me 2017 Northstar TC800 with the "sub zero" package. Thanks for doing the winter shakedown run for me! Questions for you:

First, what's up with the sail switch? How do you take it out? Did you clean the switch before reinstalling it in the same place? I think my 2017 has a different heater than your 2020 (Atwood vs. Dometic). But I've already had to have my Atwood serviced with the same symptoms.

Also, I didn't really expect that the sub-zero package would prevent water lines from freezing. As you observed, most of the water lines get close to or are outside the camper insulation. Also the grey water tank is outside. But I'm interested in knowing if you come up with a long term fix.

 

[PaulT]

Dometic bought Atwood in 2014 so it is possible that a 2017 camper could have either brand but with an Atwood design.

Paul

 

[MikeR]

Hi Mtn Mike,

Answers for you, to the best of my knowledge. First as pointed out the Atwood/Dometic is the same as far as I know.

I do not know what is up with the sail switch, to be honest with you I don't think its the sail switch but not sure. The reason for my taking out the sail switch and putting it back in is the first time it happened, furnace comes on blows cold air for 20-30 seconds and shuts off, (which points to a bad sail switch) I was close to my dealer so I stopped in and he said you probably got a piece of lent stuck in the switch, he showed me where it was how to take it out and just in case we put in a new one and it worked just fine.

Well a few months later, season is getting warmer so not as much use, it happened again and I was three hours from any place in Wyoming so I took the sail switch out, seen no lent but blew it out, put it back in and it works just fine, well it worked. Long story short this has now happened 7 times, same story except the last two times I didn't even blow the switch out just unbolted it put it back in and furnace starts blowing warm, not hot air.

So as you see there is no reason for this to be happening, unless I am being really stupid which is entirely possible and would appreciate someone pointing that out. What I am trying next is a new control board from Dinosaur Electronics. Some of the symptoms I, my furnace, is experiencing like never getting to warm, blowing cool air about as much as warm air are the same a friend was experiencing with his furnace and replaced board with the Dinosaur board and fixed his problem. At this point I figure the worse that can happen is I have a spare board. I will let you know what happens.

As far as the water lines, ultimately this is my bad, I should've known to check what the sub package was. I didn't and my dealer was also not aware of the water lines being outside the heated portion of the camper and told me I would be good to go. Like I said before I had another camper, a Class C, that had that labeling and everything was good to go below freezing. I assumed and we all know what that means

My solution to that problem for now is I am going to continue to keep water in the tank and use my sink and shower when I need them, that why I bought this instead of using a tent. I am going to insulate those outside water lines the best I can and when it gets below freezing I am going to again keep the inside of the camper above freezing at all times, leave cabinets and drawers open that have water lines behind them, make sure water lines are not touching outside walls etc. At night I am going to turn the water pump off, keep the water heater on, and drain off the pressure to the sink. When I get up at night to go gaze at the stars in my skivvies I am going to start the water pump, run water through them then turn everything off again. If it gets really cold there is a winterizing valve I can use to further bleed water off. This is what I did the last night it was below freezing and it worked. Will it work at 50 below, maybe not? I don't use the cassette toilet, that's for the girl friend and she doesn't go when it gets that cold, but the water drained out of that with some RV antifreeze in the pump to keep it from freezing and nothing stored in the grey tank. That gets emptied before it gets to cold.

If anyone else has any ideas I would very much appreciate hearing them and I am serious about the being stupid part

Mike

 

[MikeR]

Mtn Mike,

I forgot to answer your question about the location of the sail switch. Without a picture it is on the outboard side of the furnace at the bottom, mine at least has two blue wires going to it and has one small Phillips screw holding it in place. Once you unhook the wires and take that screw out you have to kinda finesse it a little to get it out as it has a long metal blade on the end of it. If you can't find it I can send you a picture tomorrow. I know you can find lots of You Tube videos on the Atwood/Dometic furnace and their issues. Hope that helps!

 

[michelle_east_county]

I wonder what the manufacturer would have to say? There can be a lot of staff turnover in RV industry which might lead to something not being installed correctly during your build, like water line routing or stand-offs of lines from outside walls.

 

[MikeR]

The manufacturer is well aware of the water lines and intends to leave the lines as they are at least on the 850SC and I assume they are the same on the 650 but not 100% sure. My dealer talked to the manufacturer and was told it cost to much to run the water lines inside , where they actually used to be. When they started using the electric jacks to lift the roof I guess they changed the routing. All of that is good and fine if they don't advertise a sub zero package?? I certainly hear what your saying about turnover in the RV industry though!!

 

[michelle_east_county]

' sounds like a good example of how no matter how good or bad the consumer product at one point in time, things may change for the better or worse from model year to model year. Perhaps Northstar determined most units were sold to fair weather weekend campers where the price point is more important than freeze protection.

 

[MikeR]

Have no doubt that was Northstar's thinking except they are charging more for the unit. They are labeling these units as being rated as Sub Zero and charging $1,400 for the Sub Zero Package and making some pretty bold marketing claims as to the R-Value of these campers. They claim an R value of 9 on the soft wall material which is higher than most hard sided campers and the equal of Lance's hard sided four season camper. Its a three season camper, bottom line, so just market it and sell it that way instead of misleading consumers and charging for something they are not getting!

 

[Mtn Mike]

Have no doubt that was Northstar's thinking except they are charging more for the unit. They are labeling these units as being rated as Sub Zero and charging $1,400 for the Sub Zero Package and making some pretty bold marketing claims as to the R-Value of these campers. They claim an R value of 9 on the soft wall material which is higher than most hard sided campers and the equal of Lance's hard sided four season camper. Its a three season camper, bottom line, so just market it and sell it that way instead of misleading consumers and charging for something they are not getting!

Have you looked at what it would take to insulate the water lines yourself? I plan to use my TC800 all winter. I was planning to leave my water system winterized and simply dry camp. But if you figure out a way to insulate those lines let us know. I've got no issues with the quality of our Northstar but I haven't camped below freezing yet.

 

[michelle_east_county]

I’ll bet there’s some language about the softwall being sub-zero and while it implies the entire unit would be, there’s probably a sort of “Your mileage will vary” statement providing them legal cover. If not, I smell lawsuit. At minimum, a small claims case over additional cost of so-called sub-zero package and additional insulation, etc. Or, alone or as a class action with attorneys. You might talk to one who’ll at least theorize with one where the first visit is free. Funny, I can’t imagine a lot of money is saved by routing lines where they did. If they’re cutting corners there, I wonder where else a couple bucks were saved?

 

[MikeR]

Mtn Mike,

I agree with you on the quality of the Northstar build, of course with the exception of the Sub Zero Package. I have not insulated the outside lines yet still debating on which route to go, insulate or reroute. The entire soft, tent, portion of mine has to be replaced due to the delaminating and breaking down of the insulation in-between the vinyl layers. Have no idea when this is supposed to happen they say they have no tents available for my model but new units are still showing up at dealers, so we shall see. One of the reasons I went with the Northstar was the Sub Zero Package so I didn't have to dry camp, been there done that enough and if I have to go back to that I'll go back to a tent or the back of the truck and save a lot of money and stress and spend more time hiking instead of fixing new stuff

Michelle,

I am sure I would have the basis for legal action but that is not for me. I do not feel what happened is not right but not going to go thru that whole process and stress but I do very much thank you for and welcome your comments!!

 

[Mtn Mike]

Well after some tracing and investigation I figured out that Northstar ran the water lines from the water pump, water heater, outside the heated, insulated portion of the camper around the refrigerator to the kitchen faucet and did not insulate them. The only thing protecting these two water lines from the elements was a small, plastic, vented cover to access the bottom of the fridge which provides no R value that I could think of. Kinda frustrating. Anyway after a few hours in the nice MT sun the next day I thawed but froze again the next night cause it was down to around 11 again. I did wrap the water lines with a couple of hand towels but not enough.

All I'm saying is if you have one of these campers and plan on going where its going to get cold take precautions. Good news, even though the water lines froze two nights, I got the issue figured out the third, no damage was done. FYI

Did you ever figure out a work-around for the exposed water lines? We just took our TC800 with subzero package winter camping. Everything worked great but we were dry camping. I'm considering filling the tanks for the next trip. I checked my TC800 and (edit) I also have pex lines exposed behind the fridge. I'm not worried about the pex freezing except it would block my water. So...my current idea is to block some or all of the outside vents on my fridge. The fridge will work better in cold weather that way anyway, and hopefully the compartment will retain enough heat to keep my water lines from freezing.

 

[MikeR]

I haven't done anything with the lines yet besides zip tie a hand towel around the exposed lines, got sidetracked with other hobbies/projects. I am on a two week trip to Tucson, on the return half outside of Bryce Canyon tonight where it is supposed to get down to 8, so far no problems. I have had three nights on this trip where it got down below freezing, 19 the lowest, but the days have been in the 40's at least with lots of sun to help keep things thawed. I think the big issues are going to come on the multiple days and nights well below freezing like I had in MT earlier in the year. Like you said it shouldn't hurt the pex, might crack an elbow though. When I take it back in for my other warranty work I will probably have them reroute the lines under the fridge to keep them inside where I can keep them warm. Let us know how your camping goes with water!!

 

[MikeR]

Hey Mike, got to 11 last night no issues. I did forget to mention when its been getting this cold I have been leaving the kitchen sink door, the water access door and the cover to the water tank access open at night so heat can reach them. Also as an added protection I have been turning off the water pump and leaving the kitchen faucet open. Also, if you haven't thought of it I recommend putting some RV antifreeze in your cassette toilet if you have one and use it and also in your grey water tank if you keep anything in there which I have not been since that is the first thing that freezes. Happy New Year!!

 

[henrys]

Hey Mike, got to 11 last night no issues.

Can you describe what modifications you made to keep your pipes from freezing on your 850SC? I'm camping in the cold and would like to use my sink. I have a 2020 850SC and too noticed they ran the lines behind the refrigerator which is outside of the heated space. It looks like there's room to run the lines under the front of the fridge following the sink drain pipe but if you were able to find an easier solution I would like to know what it is. Could I simply wrap the pipes behind the fridge with some foam insulation?

Have you noticed your shower lines freeze up too? I left the door below the shower open but it doesn't seem to keep those lines warm enough to keep from freezing.

 

[MikeR]

I had my shower lines freeze one night, ironically it was the hot line that froze in my shower and the cold line in my sink. The dealer thought it was a back up in the system from the sink freezing, not sure? The only times I have froze the lines were after two days of below freezing and not realizing the situation with the lines outside. Since then when its going to get in the teens or below I leave the kitchen sink door open, the water heater access door open and take the cover off the water tank/battery access at night. I also turn off the water pump and drain off the kitchen sink faucet and leave it open. You might try that on your shower as well?? As far as rerouting the lines my dealer has offered to do that for me but I'm still on the fence. So far I just have a hand towel wrapped around the outside lines and zip tied in place and its working so far. Another thing I do is when I have to get up in the middle of the night I turn on the water pump and run the sink for just a little bit to circulate water and wash my hands then turn off the pump again and drain off the faucet. When traveling, when I stop for fuel I make sure the camper stays in the upper 30's at least. If it's not I run the furnace for a while. Hope this helps, been there done that and it sucks. Please keep me posted!!