Pays to be a Geezer. Proposed peak season NP pricing.

billharr

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Stockton CA
Read them and weep here.

I know the NP may need the $$ but $70 per car ?

During a five-month peak-season at each of the 17 parks, the entrance fee would be $70 per vehicle, $50 per motorcycle, and $30 per person. All of the funds would be used to improve facilities, infrastructure, and visitor services, with an emphasis on deferred maintenance projects.
 
It would be easier to stomach the proposed change as a way to address the huge maintenance backlog in the Parks if it were not accompanied by a proposed $355,000,000 cut to the NPS budget. It is entirely dishonest to claim that they need to raise entrance fees to fund much needed maintenance when the net effect of these higher fees and budget cuts is to reduce the NPS budget by more than $250M. There is a public comment period on this too: https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=442&projectID=75576&documentID=83652

But seeing Zinke completely ignored the overwhelming public input on National Monuments it is hard to believe he will listen in this case.
 
I agree about being a Geezer now... but I think fees like this back when my family was young would have been a killer. I know not $70 but equal costs at those days standards would have made me change plans. I think it would have educed the many places we were actually able to go. I hope there is another solution but no idea how :(
 
I think the overcrowding issue is real, but trying to reduce visitation by economic measures is not exactly fair to the public. A lottery system for the busiest days/weekends seems like a more equitable system.
 
My problem with the lottery system (other than the fact that I have yet to ever 'win' a spot ;) ) is that folks who travel long distances to see the parks often can't hang around long enough to get in. Neither system is ideal; fees favor those who can afford them and the lottery favors those who are local to the parks.
 
I hear you about the annoyance of the lottery system. I guess maybe a combination of a lottery and a quota would be better. Like with river/backpacking/climbing permits you can enter the lottery 6-12 months in advance to get access on certain days - that way those who have to travel a long way can plan their trip. Then on days that the park is not 'full' (ie weekdays) you can have the rest of the spots be first come first served which would be better for locals and dirt bags like us who can't plan the next day let alone the next year.

I really don't think filtering people by their financial means is at all within the spirit of the parks.
 
I agree that financial filtering is not in the spirit of the parks but I've also tried a number of times to 'win' lotteries 6 months in advance without success. In a lot of cases there are slots available locally by lottery as well on a day by day basis, but that also costs money for many folks just to hang around and try. Sadly many places have been over publicized which only increases the pressure and social media certainly isn't helping with that. I live a few hours away from the Smokies where there is no filtering at all (no entrance fee) and the crowds are often unmanageable.

On the flip side, the communities that have grown up around the parks would be hurt financially if the number of park visitors drop.

The only 'solution' I can see is more public land and parks, not less.
 
Isn't the entrance fee at the major NPs a multi-day admission? As best I recall, the admission fee to Yellowstone (YNP) allows daily access for 5 to 7 days.

As one who arrives at Western NPs from +2,000 miles away, be it a road trip or an airline trip, and who must spend considerable amounts on lodging, food, incidentals, and fishing licenses, as much as $70 to enter YNP sounds extreme, it's among the lowest of line-item costs for such a trip.

I also wonder how $70 relates, in inflation-adjusted dollars, with entrance fees over the last few decades.

As with my "neighbor" Charlie (Stalking Light), I am fairly local to the Smokies and really local to the Blue Ridge Parkway (a unit of the National Parks System) where my family has a vacation home within a handful of miles of the BRP at Blowing Rock, and our subdivision abuts a 3,000 acre park along the BRP. Each of the two is overcrowded to the point of being far less fun to visit than they should be. The BRP in particular is borderline impossible to access on peak weekends and holidays. It gets completely choked with cars, motorcycles, and RVs, and all of the pullouts and parking areas stay full all day long. Would an entrance fee cut down the crowds? I'll bet it does up in Virginia, where the Skyline Drive (the SD, in effect a northern extension of the BRP) traverses the length of Shenandoah NP, with admission charged at each road accessible entry point. At 469 miles in length vs the SD's 105 miles, and with hundreds of road crossings rather than a half-dozen or so, the BRP would be very difficult to efficiently erect and operate admission charges for, but the point is it's likely that use (and over-use) would be lessened by admission charges.

Foy (with an Easterner's perspective and wondering how big of a deal this really is, all things considered).
 
Stalking Light said:
I agree that financial filtering is not in the spirit of the parks but I've also tried a number of times to 'win' lotteries 6 months in advance without success. In a lot of cases there are slots available locally by lottery as well on a day by day basis, but that also costs money for many folks just to hang around and try. Sadly many places have been over publicized which only increases the pressure and social media certainly isn't helping with that. I live a few hours away from the Smokies where there is no filtering at all (no entrance fee) and the crowds are often unmanageable.
I also been hit and miss with permits, but I think the difference would be that we are not talking about 5 permits/day to launch a raft on the Main Salmon, but 5,000 permits per day to visit Zion NP. To some degree having a permit system makes people appreciate these special spots more by having fewer high quality experiences as opposed to more frequent but degraded experiences. I think it is also important to keep some walk in permits, at least on weekdays for those that really can't plan that far ahead. I have been happy with the introduction of permits on areas liek the White Rim and the Needles in Canyon Lands. Sure I need to plan ahead and can't go at the drop of the hat, but the experience is much better and I think people treat the area better when they know it is a 'special' area to visit.


On the flip side, the communities that have grown up around the parks would be hurt financially if the number of park visitors drop.

The only 'solution' I can see is more public land and parks, not less.
I totally agree. I also can't stress how duplicitous it is to simultaneously cut the funding to the NPS while claiming you are considering adding fees to help the parks.
 
For many of my friends and I, visits to the NPs are usually for backpacking. I know some people who pack in Sequoyah NP 2-3 times per month and it would really suck for them to have to pay a $70 entrance fee just to get to the trailheads. Some people depend on someone to pick them up at the end of their trips to shuttle them back to their cars. I think I'd be reluctant to pay that $70 just to enter a park to give someone a ride. Fortunately, I stay away from most of the busy places during the peak season anyway. Regardless, looks like the price of freedom is going up!
 
Another perspective is why not reduce the $4-5 Billion subsidy that oil companies receive by $1/2B ?
 
Ronin said:
Another perspective is why not reduce the $4-5 Billion subsidy that oil companies receive by $1/2B ?
I agree. But trying to make sense of the federal budget is a fool's errand, right? Politics and common sense rarely go together it seems.
 
California is going to charge me another 7$ to fill my tank on top of the park fees. As someone who has struggled financially much of my life I hate seeing the parks becoming stratified. For some it won't mean much, for a struggling family it might be one more reason to just stay home. Haven't I already been paying taxes to support parks and roads? Probably won't affect me much until they figure out to charge for boondocking.
 
Look at the entrance fees to theme parks. The cost is financially staggering for a family of four. But, these parks must generate money to sustain their operations, return profit or close their doors.

DOI park units have closed in the past due to inadequate funding to support operations. Personally, I see the need for a larger percentage of operating revenue be derived from end users.

Several factors have gotten the NP system into this predicament. The most glaring is not underfunding per se, but rather, according to the 2016 GAO published report, between 2005 and 2016 park unit fees generating revenue did not keep pace of inflation. The net result, all park unit fees have not kept pace with inflation. .

The recently announced entrance fee increases associated with the more popular parks is a "all at once" catch up to what entrance fees would be had they been adjusted annually for inflation since 2005. And, not only will you see entrance fees increase, but so too amenity fees, special recreation permit fees, special interpretive/living history fees and concession fees and all other authorized specialty fees.

Amenity, special use fees and all other non-entrance fees will likely increase at all park units, not just the ones targeted for higher entrance fees.

Why not raise the entrance fees at all park units using the same inflation adjustment factor? Simply put, those park units would likely see a precipitous drop in visitation and difficult to support their retention at their current classification as one of the 59 NPs.


We got caught up in the "no backcountry permits today" this past spring at Moab. We were unable to hammer out our visitation timeline and precisely plan our visit to Canyonlands in order to drive/camp along the White Rim Trail. So we missed that opportunity...this time.

Even though we missed this trail/camp this time, we still much prefer the current reservation system for ALL backcountry permits rather than withholding a few walkups.

Recognizing there may be some "no shows", the NPS can stipule that a reserved backcountry permit must be picked up by a certain time on the first day of validity. If not picked up by that time, than it can be reissued to someone on a waiting list. The waiting list for that day would be generated when the back country permit office opens. A person on the waiting list has to decide if you want to hang around perhaps a half day hoping to score a "no show" permit. This way, maximum back country utilization is afforded to all.

My brother-in-law is a retired NP Superintendent; his last Super job was at the most visited of all NPs. He became concerned about park units operating costs and funding decades ago for a host of reasons. His main concern had nothing to do with fees, but rather the increase of federal lands (acreage) under NPS management authority without any increased funding. Thus, most park units fiscally operate at a lose due to increased management activities.

Like many others here, I certainly support the protection of areas worthy of protection by DOI/NPS. But, I also realize that sustainment and management of these areas comes at at price that increases annually due to both inflation and general operating costs. I hope we never see the nose bleed prices of theme parks, but higher entrance fees and other on site fees should be expected by users. If anything, perhaps the higher site visitation fees will reduce some of the over-crowding we see at many of the big name parks (wishful thinking I know).

None of us want to pay more coin out of our pockets for visiting DOI park units, but, I think it only fair that users pay more to help offset actual operating costs.


Like ALL things associated with D.C., there is no simple, easy answer to the fiscal problems facing DOI/NPS.
 
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