Propane problem "pressure"

billharr

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
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Location
Stockton CA
At the FWC rally, I had my first mechanical problem. Our heater would Not light, and I could only get a small flame on the cooktop. I thought the tank might be empty and switched tanks. No help tapped on the regulator and got a small increase in the flame on the cooktop, enough to make coffee. Still not enough to have the heater run.

When I got home I made a manometer to check the pressure out of the regulator. Instructions to make one can be found here. Below is a video I made showing what I found. The new regulator will be here Saturday.

Disclaimer: IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WORKING WITH A FLAMMABLE GAS DO NOT DO THIS.





watch


EDIT: In the film, I said 12"WC should have said 11"WC which is optimum. Also if you do change your regulator be sure to check the BTU rating.
 
Hi billharr
I have had this problem, if you are going to try adjusting please index before you move it as they seldom need adjustments after they have been set.
I spoke with the manufacturer of the regulator and this is what he told me. There is a check valve in the tank which will prevent flow if it is triggered, with the exception of a small amount. To reset the check valve shut the propane tank off, open the connection fitting, open both stove valves and wait three to five minutes. Turn off stove, reconnect and very slowly open the tank valve. Apparently it is the sudden opening that simulates there not being any connection to an appliance.
Google it and find some instructions they are a little more through than my explanation. Hope this helps, gave me a rough time also.
Russ
 
Russ, I did what you recommend several times at the Rally. I was aware of the check valve in the tank and have always opened the valve slowly.
 
I haven't had this problem with my camper tank but I have a Webber "Q" grill and they seem to always have that problem and by opening the tank valve slowly it helps.
I always open the camper tank valve very slowly.
Safety in these tank valves is nice but can be a pain at times.
Frank
 
Got the new regulator installed. Everything working like new. I made a video of the pressure of the new regulator and the inside of the old regulator showing the oil inside. If you have any idea where the oil was from let me know. I cleaned the hose to the camper before putting everything back together.

 
Glad you were aware billharr, and tried it when camping. I was not and it was a slight inconvenience on our trip. How old is the regulator you replaced? I wonder if the diaphragm gave up the ghost?

Looks like your gunna have hot coffee now! Cheers.
Russ
 
Stan@FourWheel said:
Sometimes oil comes from bad propane. Had customers in Mexico with this problem from time to time.

Oil in propane would result in oil in the Hp side of the regulator correct? Bill only had oil in Lp side of regulator....wonder the source?
 
Like another poster, some times the regulator gets an "air lock" (?) and if you take it off the tank, install, etc. it works fine. I've had that on propane bbq's happen but not on my FWC. I think bbq's are problem-matic too because of the shutoff/shutdown sequence when you turn off the propane and maybe the tank pressure from being outside?
 
I have not had this issue with the camper tank but as others mentioned, my home grill has. Wondering if vertical tanks have more trouble than my horizontal tank in the Hawk?
 
Beach said:
I have not had this issue with the camper tank but as others mentioned, my home grill has. Wondering if vertical tanks have more trouble than my horizontal tank in the Hawk?

Think about the decades of vertical tanks on the front of trailers...with no such issues. Still wondering the source of the oil Bill found in his regulator on the low pressure side....can't understand how it could have been from the tanks....

'16 Hawk has vertical tanks...
 
Well done, Bill. Love your videos!

This is just food for thought as to what the oil could be....



The oil in your video looks similar to that in the photo on page nine of this Propane Education and Research Council Final Report on An Assessment of the Merit of Conditioning LP Gas Hoses.

That page also says:

"It is interesting to note that after each static test was complete, and the LP Gas had been flared, an oily, golden-yellow liquid (shown in Figure 7) was recovered from the hose. The amount of liquid varied from test to test, from less than a teaspoonful to several tablespoonfuls for a 2-foot hose."

and

"By analogy, for a 125 ft hose typically used on a bobtail, the amount of residue would be in the cupfuls! An analysis of the liquid showed that it consisted mainly of plasticizers and heavy hydrocarbons. It is also interesting to speculate what happens to such liquids in the LP Gas distribution system."

(a bobtail is the delivery truck which delivers the propane to your supplier)

(My comment- Upon first seeing the idea that it's from plasticizers, I thought that unlikely given the short length of the rubber hose in our campers' propane system. But I was surprised to see how much came from a 2-foot hose in their testing. And they also make the point that it could be passed along through the supply chain.)

Also--

On page 29 of this "Good Practices for the Care and Custody of Propane in the Supply Chain" report, we see:

"Oil Residues and Heavy Hydrocarbons

Description: This type of potential contamination can vary from very light oil to a very viscous tar-like substance. Sometimes it is a waxy material like paraffin, or it may be similar in consistency to axel grease. Sometimes it is transparent (no apparent color) while at other times it is light brown, dark brown, or even black. It usually has a strong odorant smell, as the ethyl mercaptan used as an odorant in propane appears to concentrate in the oily residues.

Source: The oils in propane can come from many sources; from processing, pipelines, pumps or compressors, piping systems, and flexible hoses. Heavy-ends usually appear when the liquid propane is vaporized for end-use applications. When external heat is used to vaporize propane, like in a propane powered vehicle vaporizer or industrial water-bath vaporizer, heavy-ends tend to deposit in greater volume."

and

"Prevention:

The following steps may prevent or reduce the occurrence of oily residues and heavy-ends in propane:

• Investigate and develop processes and procedures to help identify and eliminate the sources of oil.
• Use filters in the propane liquid or vapor lines (such as a coalescing filter) to remove oil prior to the end-use equipment.
• Use inspection and remediation procedures to ensure that empty storage tanks and piping are free of oils and heavy-end contaminants before being filled with liquid propane.
• Use oil traps to collect and remove any oils downstream of all externally heated vaporizers"

-------------------

That info appears to support the idea that the oil comes from 'a bad fill', i.e, inadequate quality control in the supply chain.


.
 
Old Crow said:
Well done, Bill. Love your videos!

This is just food for thought as to what the oil could be....



The oil in your video looks similar to that in the photo on page nine of this Propane Education and Research Council Final Report on An Assessment of the Merit of Conditioning LP Gas Hoses.

That page also says:

"It is interesting to note that after each static test was complete, and the LP Gas had been flared, an oily, golden-yellow liquid (shown in Figure 7) was recovered from the hose. The amount of liquid varied from test to test, from less than a teaspoonful to several tablespoonfuls for a 2-foot hose."

and

"By analogy, for a 125 ft hose typically used on a bobtail, the amount of residue would be in the cupfuls! An analysis of the liquid showed that it consisted mainly of plasticizers and heavy hydrocarbons. It is also interesting to speculate what happens to such liquids in the LP Gas distribution system."

(a bobtail is the delivery truck which delivers the propane to your supplier)

(My comment- Upon first seeing the idea that it's from plasticizers, I thought that unlikely given the short length of the rubber hose in our campers' propane system. But I was surprised to see how much came from a 2-foot hose in their testing. And they also make the point that it could be passed along through the supply chain.)

Also--

On page 29 of this "Good Practices for the Care and Custody of Propane in the Supply Chain" report, we see:

"Oil Residues and Heavy Hydrocarbons

Description: This type of potential contamination can vary from very light oil to a very viscous tar-like substance. Sometimes it is a waxy material like paraffin, or it may be similar in consistency to axel grease. Sometimes it is transparent (no apparent color) while at other times it is light brown, dark brown, or even black. It usually has a strong odorant smell, as the ethyl mercaptan used as an odorant in propane appears to concentrate in the oily residues.

Source: The oils in propane can come from many sources; from processing, pipelines, pumps or compressors, piping systems, and flexible hoses. Heavy-ends usually appear when the liquid propane is vaporized for end-use applications. When external heat is used to vaporize propane, like in a propane powered vehicle vaporizer or industrial water-bath vaporizer, heavy-ends tend to deposit in greater volume."

and

"Prevention:

The following steps may prevent or reduce the occurrence of oily residues and heavy-ends in propane:

• Investigate and develop processes and procedures to help identify and eliminate the sources of oil.
• Use filters in the propane liquid or vapor lines (such as a coalescing filter) to remove oil prior to the end-use equipment.
• Use inspection and remediation procedures to ensure that empty storage tanks and piping are free of oils and heavy-end contaminants before being filled with liquid propane.
• Use oil traps to collect and remove any oils downstream of all externally heated vaporizers"

-------------------

That info appears to support the idea that the oil comes from 'a bad fill', i.e, inadequate quality control in the supply chain.


.

Great reference and research on your part....still confused, oil from hose and or propane?
 
I have had it happen twice. Once on a boat where the oil volume was enough to stop the flow of gas to the stove and heater. On my Bigfoot truck camper the generator (that I never use) would surge when running. Having had the oil issue on the boat I removed the regulator and disconnected the fittings on each appliance one at a time and blew out the lines. I was surprised at the amount of oil that came out. After replacing the regulator everything worked great.
IMHO the oil comes from the propane tank and I've only used propane from up north suppliers.
Live, learn and go camping, Bigfoot Dave

Great info Old Crow!
 
Wallowa said:
....still confused, oil from hose and or propane?
I believe the idea is that small amounts of oily and waxy substances can be picked up and ride along as contaminants in propane (LPG) as it's manufactured and transported. The operators of the pipeline and transport systems are supposed to extract, minimize, or avoid those contaminants (via testing, equipment and inspection). But that (apparently) doesn't always work and the contaminants can be introduced into our propane systems.

One source of oily contaminants is thought to be the plasticizers used in flexible hose to make it more flexible and durable. It appears those can leach out of the hoses into the LPG as they are used to move or contain the LPG. And as the Good Practices report points out, other sources of oils and waxes may include the pumps and compressors and other pipeline and transport equipment used to store and move LPG.


.
 
Old Crow said:
I believe the idea is that small amounts of oily and waxy substances can be picked up and ride along as contaminants in propane (LPG) as it's manufactured and transported. The operators of the pipeline and transport systems are supposed to extract, minimize, or avoid those contaminants (via testing, equipment and inspection). But that (apparently) doesn't always work and the contaminants can be introduced into our propane systems.

One source of oily contaminants is thought to be the plasticizers used in flexible hose to make it more flexible and durable. It appears those can leach out of the hoses into the LPG as they are used to move or contain the LPG. And as the Good Practices report points out, other sources of oils and waxes may include the pumps and compressors and other pipeline and transport equipment used to store and move LPG.


.

Thanks that makes sense...found this site to be informative as well..

https://fishingminnesota.com/forums/topic/159415-oil-in-a-propane-line/

Wondering about an inline filter to separate out any liquid? Anybody doing this, if yes, what style/brand filter?
 
I have gotten a "bad" tank of propane in the US before. When it burned, it smelled kind of like plastic and the flame deposited soot on my cookware. I think that there was more yellow in the flame than usual. Got a fresh tank of propane from a known source, and the problem went away. Didn't know there was such a thing as "bad" propane in the US.
BTW Thank you Bill for your great posts.
Gregg
 
i heard that the gunk/oil in the lines issue is another good reason to replace the regulator and rubber lines my question would be: how often? mine are brand new, as is my 20# horizontal tank . i also heard that when getting a refill, the propane agent is supposed to flush the tank with nitrogen? first before refilling
 
I replaced the hose on our camper because I was moving the regulator from hanging on the tank to being fixed to the wall of the enclosure. While there I put in a 'T' for our tank pressure bbq port and changed the tank connector to have the Acme threaded coupling. The hose that I bought has a polyethylene inner-most layer. The hose vendor told me that it was the only hose to use with propane because it wouldn't leach plasticzers into the gas and the gas wouldn't slowly permeate through the hose.

In my 40-odd years of camping with propane I have never seen an N2 source at a propane refilling station. I'm wondering if this is something new, and just what the benefit might be?
 
Don’t know about horizontal tanks, but on vertical tanks, there is a vent that is opened when the tank is being filled. Anything lighter than propane would be vented to atmosphere.

Next time your tank is filled, watch closely. On the vertical tank, a screwdriver is used to open a port and you can see fog-like emanation dissipate as the tank nears full.

After initial filling, there should be little to no air remaining in the tank on subsequent filling.
Paul
 

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