Propane - wet or not?

[DirtyDog]

I've always been told that propane heaters create condensation and that diesel heaters do not. We are having a discussion on expo about four season camping and I seemed to have stuck my foot in my mouth over this issue. What say you wanderers - does propane heat increase moisture within a camper or no? And if so, why and how is diesel heat different?

 

[SunMan]

No opinion here but it seems to be the consensus on yachting sites...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=propane+vs+diesel+furnace+moisture&aq=f&aqi=&aql=f&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

[Ted]

Like you, I have heard that about the heater and assumed it to be true. But I was just checking out the thread on Expo and the reply about it being caused more by exhaling than by the heater makes sense. On the older campers like ours, the heater is located right by the rear door. But after a cold night camping with the heater on all night, the condensation is around the bed of the camper but there is usually none by the back door. If the heater were the source, wouldn't it deposit the moisture it produces at the nearest location as opposed to the farthest?
So I agree, we have been misinformed and you stuck your foot in your mouth. For your penance, you shall provide beer or coffe to the members (their choice) at the next rally.

 

[HERR42]

Like you, I have heard that about the heater and assumed it to be true. But I was just checking out the thread on Expo and the reply about it being caused more by exhaling than by the heater makes sense. On the older campers like ours, the heater is located right by the rear door. But after a cold night camping with the heater on all night, the condensation is around the bed of the camper but there is usually none by the back door. If the heater were the source, wouldn't it deposit the moisture it produces at the nearest location as opposed to the farthest?
So I agree, we have been misinformed and you stuck your foot in your mouth. For your penance, you shall provide beer or coffe to the members (their choice) at the next rally.

....after he sets up the flamingos to mark his territory.

 

[chnlisle]

I'm not the definitive word here but my Morgan Out Island 41 had a diesel heater. On winter mornings after running it all night out at Santa Cruz Island it was dripping from the bulk heads. I think its more a cold moist v. hot thing. Where is Richard Feynman when you need him?

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

I have heard that the small propane catalytic heaters will produce some moisture in the air creating condensation.

Maybe is is from the mosture from the actual propane ?

But I don't think the forced air furnaces used in most truck campers will produce moisture inside the camper ?

The forced air furnaces have a sealed, outside combustion chaimber where all of the burning and exaust happens.

Inside the furnace (inside the camper) is a small fan that circulates air from inside the camper through a small steel wind tunnel sort of thing. The gas buring inside the furnace heats up the steel chaimber and the air from the small fan goes through the steel chaimber, heats up, and circulates through the camper.

I think most of the moisture will come from people breathing all night.

We have played around with a deisel furnace on a test table. Pretty cool, high tech looking thing. But we don't know too much about them.


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[Phird05]

I don't think it makes any difference. How could it, when it is a closed system with exterior exhaust? My home was propane originally, then converted to natural gas. In cold temperatures, I always had the same amount of moisture on the windows regardless of what fuel was burning. I also have lived with electric baseboard and yes, below zero weather there was just as much moisture on the windows. I can't see how diesel would be any different. I think WE are the only variable here. Whether it be showering, boiling water or just breathing within an enclosed area...exaggerated in the small containment of a camper. In cold temperatures there is really no way to avoid the moisture unless it is vented outside at a rate that exceeds how much is produced.

That's my story......right or wrong.

My camper is tucked away in the garage until mid February so unfortunately, I don't have to worry about moisture issues until then.

Paul

 

[highz]

In a properly vented camper, complete propane combustion is

C3H8 + 5 O2 → 3 CO2 + 4 H2O + heat

So yes, water is produced. You are right, DD. Even so, I agree with everyone else that the bulk of the moisture in our campers is from mammals exhaling. Since our propane furnaces are vented outside we shouldn't be getting much water from them.

my $.02

 

[n0izh]

One of my other hobbies is sailing. I have a Newport on Lake Mead that had a Diesel heater in it when I bought it. The heater warmed the boat very well, but always had condensation on the walls near the hull and on the hull itself. Changed that heater out for an externally vented propane marine heater to get rid of the soot and dirt film on the decks that the Diesel caused. Still had the same amount of condensation. Changed that heater out for a Wave6(same one I now use in the camper) because the marine heater didn't heat very well. It had a pretty to watch flame, but who cares when your toes are cold? Had maybe a bit less condensation than before I think because now I was venting the air a bit. On to the FWC, had lots of condensation with the forced air furnace, mainly near the bed. Installed the reflectix panels on the sides and had ZERO condensation inside, but still wet between the vinyl and reflectix. I'm sure the amount of water between is reduced though, but haven't done a study on it yet. Added the Wave6 and the conditions are somewhat better than before, again I think because I'm venting the camper because of the Wave6. My guess is that it's more a warm vs cold surface area thing. Sure you have some water in the propane, but I think breathing is way more influential than the propane. I also think the condensation problems are greatly reduced with better insulation and better ventilation of the moist air.

John

 

[Skeeter]

The furance produces a warm dry air that is absorbed into your lungs and exhaled out as moist air. You loose moisture and your breath condenses on the inside of your camper/tent. Your are basicly a human humidifier! The combustible has very little to do with the moisture of the air, however it does provide a very dry air. Thats why you should drink lots of water!

 

[craig333]

Gotta go with skeeter and stan on this one. Don't blame the heater.

 

[Barko1]

The furance produces a warm dry air that is absorbed into your lungs and exhaled out as moist air. You loose moisture and your breath condenses on the inside of your camper/tent. Your are basicly a human humidifier! The combustible has very little to do with the moisture of the air, however it does provide a very dry air. Thats why you should drink lots of water!


I concur if that is worth anything In my camper it is 2 humans and 3 or 4 dogs pumping out that H2O enriched exhaust that condenses when it hits those cool walls and metal ceiling strips. It the sulfurous exhaust that is more problematic.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Try spending a cold night in a small camper with no heat, still lots of condensation.

I would say it is the warm air, be it from a heater or from breath, hitting a cold object that is causing the condensation.

 

[EdoHart]

I agree with Stan@FourWheel, Phird05, highz, n0izh, and graig333 (sorry if I missed someone), but I think Phird05 said it best...
...I don't think it makes any difference. How could it, when it is a closed system with exterior exhaust? ...
If the fuel used could effect the H2O content in the camper, then it would also effect the CO2 content in the camper.

One should be able to boil water in the flame of a properly plumbed heater and not introduce any more water into the camper as a result of boiling said water.

 

[Mark W. Ingalls]

In a properly vented camper, complete propane combustion is

C3H8 + 5 O2 → 3 CO2 + 4 H2O + heat

So yes, water is produced. You are right, DD. Even so, I agree with everyone else that the bulk of the moisture in our campers is from mammals exhaling. Since our propane furnaces are vented outside we shouldn't be getting much water from them.

my $.02


...carrying highz's analysis further, longer chain hydrocarbons produce slightly more carbon dioxide than water vapor, so their exhaust would be slightly 'drier'.

But that's not the reason.

The combustion byproducts from an un-vented diesel heater would kill you quicker than those of propane, so it must be the 'catalytic' style of propane heater that is causing the association of 'pane with rain.