Regearing your Tacoma

And don’t forget that we live in an evolving era when “stock” means less about a manufacturer’s baseline for performance that meets the needs of the average consumer and more about what the government dictates is acceptable for crash protection, mpg, emissions, etc.

The Gen3 Tacoma transmission is a great example- always hunting for the lowest RPMs and best gas mileage while providing the most infuriating driving experience. Another, ECT- not “economy mode” anymore. Now you need to select a somewhat normal driving experience as you pull out of the driveway.

I agree that the 4.88 gears will add more stress overall but I am happy that Toyota still builds them dependable and sturdy enough to take that stress over many miles (*most of the time) if you don’t get too over the top.
 
JHanson said:
The reality is, every step down in gearing you take, especially if you are compensating for larger, heavier tires, does matter. Sure, people get away with unwise combinations all the time, and 4.88s with reasonably sized tires is not as radical a setup as I've seen. But you are putting additional stress on your driveline, period. I've seen numerous diffs blown from regearing when combined with silly tires. Then you add the weight of the camper. Every such step adds up. It's just smart to be smart about modifications, I'm sure you'd agree.
Actually lower gears take stress OUT of the upstream power-train because they do not have to work as hard to move the truck. The axle shaft does have to work as hard or harder with taller than stock tires, but those in a Toyota diff are beyond large for this type of application in this size vehicle. They rival the fabled Ford 9" 31 spline axles in size and spline count.

It is true that a 4.88 pinion is smaller than a 4.56 pinion, and both are smaller than a 4.10 pinion. The practical result in a Toyota truck diff is that it doesn't matter in real world use. What matters is the tire size & engine power. Put a poorly enough thought out combo together and you can snap teeth off a 3.00's pinion too.

This all assumes that the person who put the diff together really knows what they were doing. I know what to do, I've even done it many times. I farm this job out unless there's absolutely no other option.

I am under the impression that the late Taco's employ a ring gear larger than the 8" 4.88's that I flogged for ~130k miles. I do mean flogged. That truck served as a DD, as a desert race support truck (where it flat got beat on), and was used on multiple multi-day dirt trips.

It does pay to be smart about modifications, and particularly how they interact with each other, but this particular mod is a proven thing. It is neither excessive nor outrageous. Given the rest of the truck's combo I fully expect this mod to live at least as long as the truck.
 
You're not removing stress. You are simply moving it as your first sentence says. I'm not sure why there is an argument regarding my basic premise, which is unassailable. Yes, the Tacoma diff is strong enough to handle reasonably larger tires and lower gearing. But it will be compromised, and thus will not have the same latitude for abuse, and also will not last as long as a stock setup. The owner has to make the decision if that is an acceptable tradeoff for better driveability.

Regarding moving away from stock, of course certain components can be improved. Shock absorbers are an obvious example. But when you install component that reduce the stock drivetrain's strength, you are reducing durability and reliability by some degree. It might be an acceptable degree, but it is a degree nonetheless.

I've heard all the stories about this or that Tacoma that went 500,000 miles on 35s and 5.56 gears. I don't (necessarily) doubt them. But I've seen personally the trucks that didn't last 50,000 miles on such a setup.
 
JHanson said:
You're not removing stress. You are simply moving it as your first sentence says. I'm not sure why there is an argument regarding my basic premise, which is unassailable. Yes, the Tacoma diff is strong enough to handle reasonably larger tires and lower gearing. But it will be compromised, and thus will not have the same latitude for abuse, and also will not last as long as a stock setup. The owner has to make the decision if that is an acceptable tradeoff for better driveability.

Regarding moving away from stock, of course certain components can be improved. Shock absorbers are an obvious example. But when you install component that reduce the stock drivetrain's strength, you are reducing durability and reliability by some degree. It might be an acceptable degree, but it is a degree nonetheless.

I've heard all the stories about this or that Tacoma that went 500,000 miles on 35s and 5.56 gears. I don't (necessarily) doubt them. But I've seen personally the trucks that didn't last 50,000 miles on such a setup.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)...Yes it does add extra stress to the Axle in certain situations if your not careful...but I'd argue that correctly set up it will run just as long as any stock setup. The degree that it's "reducing" reliability is VERY minimal and well worth the benefits that are gained from it IMO.

Hodakaguy
 
A discussion from a physicist viewpoint vs. from an engineering viewpoint where both are correct.

Physicist argument is based on principles of structural design & properties of materials.

Engineering argument is based on engineering over design/safety factors and economic decisions for parts that could be used in multiple applications.

I salute you both. :)

Paul
 
Lots to be gained from the insight of both Jonathan (JHansen) and Tom (Hodakaguy) have expert level knowledge regarding this subject.

And it is not uncommon to find differing opinions among such experts. One simply has to take the info they provide and determine what you hope to achieve with your rig/setup and go from there.

I for one and greatly disappointed with the factory gearing and constant ECT shifting of the wife's '17 TACO TRD Off Road. At some point I will likely change the gearing and look at the chip which alters shift points. I'm only pulling my flats boat, but, even on the flat roads along coastal SC, the constant shifting really gets annoying when speed varies by simply 1 or 2 MPH due to soo soo subtle grade change.

Thanks for chiming in gents (and keeping it respectful....what I REALLY like about this forum)!!! Every little bit of info helps!
 
JHanson said:
You're not removing stress. You are simply moving it as your first sentence says. I'm not sure why there is an argument regarding my basic premise, which is unassailable. Yes, the Tacoma diff is strong enough to handle reasonably larger tires and lower gearing. But it will be compromised, and thus will not have the same latitude for abuse, and also will not last as long as a stock setup. The owner has to make the decision if that is an acceptable tradeoff for better driveability.

Regarding moving away from stock, of course certain components can be improved. Shock absorbers are an obvious example. But when you install component that reduce the stock drivetrain's strength, you are reducing durability and reliability by some degree. It might be an acceptable degree, but it is a degree nonetheless.

I've heard all the stories about this or that Tacoma that went 500,000 miles on 35s and 5.56 gears. I don't (necessarily) doubt them. But I've seen personally the trucks that didn't last 50,000 miles on such a setup.
We'll have to agree to disagree as well.

It is not an unassailable premise, it is a flawed premise. The flaw is that it assumes that by simply re-gearing that you have increased the stress. If the loads haven't changed then the stresses in the axle shaft haven't changed. If the stress in the axle hasn't changed and by re-gearing now the up-stream power-train is not working as hard, then the torque to the pinion gear has been reduced. Too hard to call without an in-depth analysis as to whether the smaller pinion gear teeth have increased stress due to their being smaller, reduced stress due to the lower torque input, or if these things cancel each other out. Any assumption there is at serious risk of being flawed.

If the loads have changed then regardless of whether it is re-geared or not the stress in the axle shaft has changed.

And all of this ignores the largest single factor in the whole equation. That loose nut behind the steering wheel. MISF (that would be "My Infamous Scout Friend" b/c he drives a Scout II and I won't publicly name him) can break an anvil in a sandbox. He really should be in product durability testing because he can find flaws that the designers never thought of.
If he is driving this fictional Taco then all bets are off. If a mutual friend is driving the same truck, but fitted with 5.29 geared famously weak first gen Yota IFS diffs front and rear I would expect that truck to last years if not decades in serious off-pavement use.
 
Sorry NTSQD, but common sense logic and assumptions don't apply in gearing modifications. The math pertaining to the subject IS unassailable.

Growing up in SC as a teen, we raced 1/4 mile and oval dirt tracks Friday nights and weekends. Later on, I got to hang in the garage and pit of Bill Elliot back in the 80s. Today, we spend time Robert Yates (one of NASCARs better engine builders).

I posed this question to Robert yesterday.

In his opinion, changing the gearing from a factory offering to a taller ratio is nothing more than a torque multiplier. Any ratio taller than the factory installed will induce increased stress somewhere in the driveline.

As a discussion point...
Take a car producing 100 foot pounds of torque to the pinion gear.
Install a 4.10:1 and your output torque is now 410 ft-lb
Install a 4.88:1 in a Taco Gen 3 8.75" rear end and your output torque is 488 ft-lb
Increased torque results in stress (deformation) and multiplying torque increases stress in the driveline. Stress due to modification may not lead to a premature failure over the factory installation, but, it increases the probability. And it is impossible to define premature. But, mean time between failure (MTBF) is a variable tracked in aircraft maintenance schedules, and other industries where preventive maintenance schedules require part replacement based on hours or miles of use all due to stress.

There are many variables affected by changing gearing, input speed (engine RPM), output speed, tire size but the stress (deformation) curve is not a straight line variable as torque changes. I don't do public math so you can run through the equations inputing your own data.

I learned at 16 that a 4.11 in a 1969 Chevelle SS 396 could burn out a set of brand new Road Hugger tires in a single night. For non 1/4 mile fun, I ran a 3.55. The 3.55 reduced engine RPM at 70 MPH (can't recall how much) and could prolong engine life and most certainly, tires. Which is really a misnomer because I pushed the engine to redline many a Friday night. But, I installed new rings and/or pistons, bearings, worked the heads about every 6 months. Got to where we could pull, tear down the engine and have it running again that afternoon. I sold the '69 SS and bought a '70 Boss 302. But the Boss was stolen in SOCAL back in the mid-80s. Never recovered. That was the end of my muscle car days.

Regardless, I'm "all in" and in favor of changing to taller gears when a justifiable performance gain can be attained, as with the wife's Gen 3 Taco. Even at the potential for earlier mechanical failure. If I was heading out on one of Jonathan Hansen's Libyan desert adventures, I would surely freshen old parts with new gears, bearings, etc. before jumping off.
 
This has become quite an interesting thread. I can see not only the level of book knowledge, but also that of real world experience.
Hell we all know there ain't nothing out there perfect. I would venture to say we all do the best we can, with what we got. Heck even factory stuff blows up and breaks, cause no one gets it right all the time.

Thanks for all the opinions and sharing of your knowledge.

Russ
 
Ignorant question: What are the effects of changing gears to 4.88 when the camper is removed?
 
Mysteryz said:
Ignorant question: What are the effects of changing gears to 4.88 when the camper is removed?
No difference, same benefits as when the camper is on. Pulls hills better, Accelerates better and a lot less gear hunting. Especially true on the 2016 and up to Tacoma’s, on these trucks it makes them a lot more enjoyable to drive. A lot of guys are running the 4.88’s with stock tires and love it, almost a necessity when running larger than stock tires IMO.

Hodakaguy
 
Hodakaguy said:
No difference, same benefits as when the camper is on. Pulls hills better, Accelerates better and a lot less gear hunting. Especially true on the 2016 and up to Tacoma’s, on these trucks it makes them a lot more enjoyable to drive. A lot of guys are running the 4.88’s with stock tires and love it, almost a necessity when running larger than stock tires IMO.

Hodakaguy
Glad you mentioned the OEM tires and 4.88, that was going to be my next question.

I'm always paying attention to the engine, tranny and everything else going on with the truck I'm driving. Probably my decades of piloting aircraft where it's tough to pull over when something goes wrong.

I'm just not sure why Toyota geared and programed the shift points on the Tacoma Gen 3 as they did. I have never driven a vehicle that searches for gears (constant shifting) more than the Gen 3 Taco.

I'm fairly certain I will be looking for a good gear shop in Charleston SC to install a 4.88 based on everything I've read here and a few other places.
 
Adv,
I'm not making assumptions, & btw that's lower case "ntsqd". :) I am looking at the sequence of power moving thru the system and analyzing how each is affected by re-gearing.

Something that I learned in designing racing disc brakes (those used by Mr. Yates and others): It does not matter how much torque can be produced at the wheel mounting flange, it only matters how much torque the tire can transfer to the ground. This is true whether it is propelling torque or retarding torque. The tire doesn't know the difference or care.

With a higher numeric axle ratio (on the Left Coast we call those "Shorter" gears, not taller; neither is a very good description) and no other change(s) at maximum effort the stress in the axle shaft increases because of the torque multiplication. At least until the traction isn't there to support any more torque. From the pinion U-Joint forward nothing has changed so there is no change in stress in those components.

If there are no other changes, then everything forward of the pinion U-Joint doesn't to work quite as hard to get the job done at less than max effort. Said differently, with no other changes the stress in the axle shaft is the same because the loading hasn't changed, but because of the greater torque multiplication the stress in everything forward of that pinion U-Joint is lower for any given level of effort that is less than max effort.

Add the taller tires. That increases the stress in the axle shaft. Which in turn increased the stress forward of the pinion U-Joint because it effectively reduced the torque multiplication meaning that the power-train has to produce more power to achieve the same level of effort, though not as much as it would have had to do by adding those taller tires without the ratio change.

Now add the camper. Again stress in the axle shaft was increased (both the torsional stress as well as the cyclic bending stress). So too has been the stress increased in all of the power-train from the pinion U-Joint forward, but also again this stress is lower than it would be without the ratio change to increase the torque multiplication at anything less than maximum effort.

Up to this point I've been careful to not examine the stress in the ring & pinion itself. True that a higher numeric ratio results in a pinion gear with fewer teeth and those teeth will be smaller than a lower numeric ratio gear-set. At max effort the same power produced by the power-train will be applied to smaller gear teeth and the stress will be higher as a result. At anything less than max effort the power-train will not have to produce as much power to achieve the same results as prior to the gear change due to the greater torque multiplication, so the torque applied by the power-train will be lower for any given effort level below max. It can not be assumed that the smaller teeth are always more highly stressed, only at max effort are they for sure more highly stressed. At less than max effort there too many variables to make any assumptions, an in-depth analysis needs to be done.

This all assumes that the driver continues to operate in exactly the same fashion. That may or may not be a good assumption. With more acceleration available it tends to get used more.

MTBF is a Fatigue Life calculation, In low carbon steels the fatigue life is set as infinite and the max stress per cycle is calculated from the part's geometry and the alloy's properties. the geometry is adjusted or the alloy changed until the part will basically never fail. Toyota's MTBF target stress value for truck axle shafts must be a very large number. Short of hanging with those who like to install 5.29's and 40" tires, and then go beat their truck against the rocks to find out what breaks this time I have not seen or read of Toyota 8" axle shaft failing. They have failed, of course, but not in this use type.
 
ntsqd said:
Adv,
I'm not making assumptions, & btw that's lower case "ntsqd". :) I am looking at the sequence of power moving thru the system and analyzing how each is affected by re-gearing.

Something that I learned in designing racing disc brakes (those used by Mr. Yates and others): It does not matter how much torque can be produced at the wheel mounting flange, it only matters how much torque the tire can transfer to the ground. This is true whether it is propelling torque or retarding torque. The tire doesn't know the difference or care.

With a higher numeric axle ratio (on the Left Coast we call those "Shorter" gears, not taller; neither is a very good description) and no other change(s) at maximum effort the stress in the axle shaft increases because of the torque multiplication. At least until the traction isn't there to support any more torque. From the pinion U-Joint forward nothing has changed so there is no change in stress in those components.

If there are no other changes, then everything forward of the pinion U-Joint doesn't to work quite as hard to get the job done at less than max effort. Said differently, with no other changes the stress in the axle shaft is the same because the loading hasn't changed, but because of the greater torque multiplication the stress in everything forward of that pinion U-Joint is lower for any given level of effort that is less than max effort.

Add the taller tires. That increases the stress in the axle shaft. Which in turn increased the stress forward of the pinion U-Joint because it effectively reduced the torque multiplication meaning that the power-train has to produce more power to achieve the same level of effort, though not as much as it would have had to do by adding those taller tires without the ratio change.

Now add the camper. Again stress in the axle shaft was increased (both the torsional stress as well as the cyclic bending stress). So too has been the stress increased in all of the power-train from the pinion U-Joint forward, but also again this stress is lower than it would be without the ratio change to increase the torque multiplication at anything less than maximum effort.

Up to this point I've been careful to not examine the stress in the ring & pinion itself. True that a higher numeric ratio results in a pinion gear with fewer teeth and those teeth will be smaller than a lower numeric ratio gear-set. At max effort the same power produced by the power-train will be applied to smaller gear teeth and the stress will be higher as a result. At anything less than max effort the power-train will not have to produce as much power to achieve the same results as prior to the gear change due to the greater torque multiplication, so the torque applied by the power-train will be lower for any given effort level below max. It can not be assumed that the smaller teeth are always more highly stressed, only at max effort are they for sure more highly stressed. At less than max effort there too many variables to make any assumptions, an in-depth analysis needs to be done.

This all assumes that the driver continues to operate in exactly the same fashion. That may or may not be a good assumption. With more acceleration available it tends to get used more.

MTBF is a Fatigue Life calculation, In low carbon steels the fatigue life is set as infinite and the max stress per cycle is calculated from the part's geometry and the alloy's properties. the geometry is adjusted or the alloy changed until the part will basically never fail. Toyota's MTBF target stress value for truck axle shafts must be a very large number. Short of hanging with those who like to install 5.29's and 40" tires, and then go beat their truck against the rocks to find out what breaks this time I have not seen or read of Toyota 8" axle shaft failing. They have failed, of course, but not in this use type.

Well stated.

Hodakaguy
 
I have a 2010 Tacoma with the 6 Speed RA60 manual trans, 17' Rims with 33in tires I went with 4.10 gears and am very happy. Highway and Around town improvements are noticeable.
In every gear I'm in the correct power band, torque is improved and driveability with the camper excellent.

4.30s would be killer for torque but I would say highway you'll end up loosing to much MPG. It's well known the Tacoma V6 starts to suck up the gas over 2500rpms. 4.30's would put you at 2600-2650RPMs at 70...

Since all the talk of 4.88's I figure you all are talking about the auto trans....but wanted to give my 2C about the MT.

Also while in there think about lockers or limited slip. I updated to a Detroit TrueTrac and LOVE IT....
 
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