Saline Valley Warm Springs Management Plan EIS

[ETAV8R]

I haven't read the following documentation but plan to this coming weekend.

For all of us who have ventured or plan to explore Saline Valley and the priceless environment and history...

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectID=39438

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=297&projectID=39438&documentID=56823

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=39438&MIMEType=application%252Fpdf&filename=DEVA%5FSaline%5FValley%5FWarm%5FSprings%5FEIS%5FPreliminary%5FAlternatives%5FComparison%5FTable%5FJan%5F2014%5F%281%29%2Epdf&sfid=0

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=39438&MIMEType=application%252Fpdf&filename=DEVA%5FSaline%5FValley%5FWarm%5FSprings%5FEIS%5FPreliminary%5FAlternatives%5FComparison%5FTable%5FJan%5F2014%5F%281%29%2Epdf&sfid=0

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=39438&MIMEType=application%252Fpdf&filename=DEVA%5FSaline%5FValley%5FWarm%5FSprings%5FEIS%5FPreliminary%5FAlternatives%5FJan%5F2014%2Epdf&sfid=0

Meetings:
Furnace Creek Alternatives Development Open House

Date Start Time End Time Location
02/04/2014 4:00 PM 6:30 PM Furnace Creek Visitor Center
Highway 190
Death Valley, California
760-786-3243
The National Park Service (NPS) is seeking public input to help inform and shape alternatives development for a management plan and environmental impact statement for the Saline Valley Warm Springs area of Death Valley National Park.

Description:
The purpose of the proposed plan is to provide a basis for managing this remote yet popular area of the park, balancing the protection of unique natural and cultural resources with public health and visitor use at the Saline Valley Warm Springs. Five alternatives have been drafted and the Park Service is asking for comments at three public meetings in February. Comments can also be submitted electronically or by mail.

Meeting Directions/Instructions:
The meeting will take place in the Multi-Purpose Room in the Furnace Creek Visitor Center.

Enter your starting address to get directions from Google Maps.


Lone Pine Alternatives Development Open House

Date Start Time End Time Location
02/05/2014 4:00 PM 6:30 PM Statham Hall
138 N. Jackson St.
Lone Pine, California
760-786-3243
The National Park Service (NPS) is seeking public input to help inform and shape alternatives development for a management plan and environmental impact statement for the Saline Valley Warm Springs area of Death Valley National Park.

Description:
The purpose of the proposed plan is to provide a basis for managing this remote yet popular area of the park, balancing the protection of unique natural and cultural resources with public health and visitor use at the Saline Valley Warm Springs. Five alternatives have been drafted and the Park Service is asking for comments at three public meetings in February. Comments can also be submitted electronically or by mail.

Meeting Directions/Instructions:


Enter your starting address to get directions from Google Maps.


Ridgecrest Alternatives Development Open House

Date Start Time End Time Location
02/06/2014 4:00 PM 6:30 PM Historical Society of the Upper Mojave Desert
230 W. Ridgecrest. Blvd.
Ridgecrest, California
760-786-3243
The National Park Service (NPS) is seeking public input to help inform and shape alternatives development for a management plan and environmental impact statement for the Saline Valley Warm Springs area of Death Valley National Park.

Description:
The purpose of the proposed plan is to provide a basis for managing this remote yet popular area of the park, balancing the protection of unique natural and cultural resources with public health and visitor use at the Saline Valley Warm Springs. Five alternatives have been drafted and the Park Service is asking for comments at three public meetings in February. Comments can also be submitted electronically or by mail.

 

[billharr]

Sure hope this is not NFS talk to we want to close the area to motorized vehicles. As an old time off road motorcycle rider I have seen this happen too many times.


"Description:
The purpose of the proposed plan is to provide a basis for managing this remote yet popular area of the park, balancing the protection of unique natural and cultural resources with public health and visitor use at the Saline Valley Warm Springs. Five alternatives have been drafted and the Park Service is asking for comments at three public meetings in February. Comments can also be submitted electronically or by mail."
"

 

[Lighthawk]

Thank you ETAV8R for bringing this to the Advocacy Forum.

I treasure this place and hope it will remain much the same.
If you want to participate in the process, public comment is open until 3/28.

Otherwise there are only three public meetings: 02/04/2014 Furnace Creek Visitor Center, 02/05/2014 Lone Pine Statham Hall, 02 /06/2014 Ridgecrest Historical Society of the Upper Mojave Desert. I'm a bit concerned those three meetings may be swayed by locals, but not necessarily the actual visitors.

 

[craig333]

If what I've read here http://forum.salinepreservation.org/?forum=244766 is any indication, I don't think its so much about closing roads but doing more active management. That could be good or bad depending.

 

[billharr]

If what I've read here http://forum.salinepreservation.org/?forum=244766 is any indication, I don't think its so much about closing roads but doing more active management. That could be good or bad depending.

First let me say I have not been to Saline Valley. I did go to the site above and followed a link to the NPS comments. Many of the comments use "wilderness" to describe the area and not "back country". There was also a lot of comments on intrusion into the adjacent wildness.

I would be very worried about "active management" I have camped off of slick rock road for over 45 years. At one time it was an adventure to get to Spicier Reservoir, now thanks to active management you can drive a class A there. In just the last few years Utica Union Reservoirs have had full campgrounds put in and you can no longer camp in some places. The four wheel roads have been leveled so any car can get there. Where I camp on duck creek you can park your Prius with in a 1/2 mile. Now we have constant stream of walkers and mountains bikes going through camp. We also have the NFS stopping in and counting heads, over 20 and you need a permit.


20 years ago you needed to have a jeep or off road motorcycle to get to where this sign is.

Edit: To summarize rant above.
NFS is headed to two types of camping.

• Full campgrounds with pay to camp
• Full wilderness walk in only

If the area you like to camp off a four wheel road has something to offer such as a hot springs it will be "managed" to the point of a full campground. Not many free area's you can drive to left.

 

[craig333]

I still haven't done slick rock. Tried last year but it was during the fire and so smoky i gave up. Does saline need more management? I can't say. I was there when it was maybe half full. Certainly didn't need it then, I don't know what its like on a holiday weekend..

The unfortunate part is, a lot depends on who is in charge. A good team and you won't hardly notice anything. Problem is what is the next team going to do? Way too much turnover in the NPS and other govt. agencies.

 

[LuckyDan]

"First let me say I have not been to Saline Valley." I have been to Death Valley a couple of times but not Saline Valley.

"At one time it was an adventure to get to Spicier Reservoir, now thanks to active management you can drive a class A there. In just the last few years Utica Union Reservoirs have had full campgrounds put in and you can no longer camp in some places. The four wheel roads have been leveled so any car can get there." I hear you


Edit: To summarize rant above.
NFS is headed to two types of camping.

• Full campgrounds with pay to camp
• Full wilderness walk in only

I think all the land management agencies more or less tend to think this way.

"If the area you like to camp off a four wheel road has something to offer such as a hot springs it will be "managed" to the point of a full campground. Not many free area's you can drive to left." IMO the same is largely true all over. I say let's advocate for managing the status quo. If it's truely wilderness and not just untouched, good, manage for that. For those areas that access is challenging, perfect, another action point. If It's developed to the point of Prius access, excellent, lets put forth some effort to keep up that infrastructure.

Of course that's not a perfect answer. A wilderness designation will lead to a demand for either a new trail system of overhaul of the existing one. An off road access designation will probably be analysed for and get some erosion control, stabilization and access control. The developed campground will gat a bunch of development planned with no real plan of how to keep it up post decision.

What I do know is if you really have a concern for this area, or any area important or special to you that you take the opportunity to be heard or support those orginizations and clubs that fairly represent your shared view. This is THE opportunity to exercise your right as an American to be part of the process. What one needs to the remember is the process is on a timeline, thus it has an expiriation date.

Sorry Mr. Harr for taking over your viewpoint posting which I support by the way. Please carry on.

 

[SunMan]

Having just returned from Saline Valley this afternoon I can tell you this was a topic on many folks' mind. With the rich history found there one would think they could/would consider it a historical landmark in league with mines, old structures and such.

 

[billharr]

Another site I am on, Bay Area Riders Forum, has some more information on Saline. Notice the NFS did not notify the person who runs the Saline Valley Preservation Association.

Their forum has quite a discussion on the Management Plan.

 

[Smokecreek1]

Okay, I have no stake in this discussion-never been there, but who knows I might one day. As a retired fed employee, who attended his share of "public meetings" as a fed, this thread sounds very familiar, so go to the meetings, write letters, call people because I don't know how many meetings I went to(after lot's of prep)-where we really wanted input and no one showed up-or those that did represented the usual user groups like off road users, environmental/wildlife interests or a organic specific users like ranchers, timber or mineral types.Maybe things are different now, but we really cared about the public lands we managed for the public-"we tried anyway"and without getting into any arguments about what this or that statement meant, any direction we got was from what ever the theme of the present administration was presenting and it was not the law and we sometimes actually did what the public wanted-enough of that!

While we usually had an general idea of what the above users/pol's wanted, most other people (the real public) knew nothing about what was going on. and these lands are public lands and they are not just for just a few select people or groups! People pressure (new people showing up out in out back country areas) and resource scarcity (caused drought ect,) is really causing management problems these days; and if you don't show up and add your two cents worth, everything out there may end up being either one big dirt bike area or one protected wilderness area. Planning is a major part of the land management process (and is opened up to the public for a reason) and nothing can be done without a plan first-so you need to get involved or you just may loose those lands to those with allot more money than most of us have.

At one time I seem to remember once when Public Lands where called "multi-use" and we practiced "conservation" and they were (sometimes) even managed in a way that everyone could use them (or at least parts of them); some lands closed, some open, some mixed and that things would swing back and forth between the users and the savers ! It sounds trite, but working together is only the way out. Today there is no option left but to take part in these meetings because we are not really really running out land-we are running of options for those lands-really! You don't take part in the talk, you will keep getting the mess we have out there now! We bitch allot on this site about "them" people showing and ruining "our" wonderful places, so this is the time to do something; it sort of like voting, if you vote you can bitch because at least you did something anyway! Sorry my old BLM inner self came out again!

Smoke

 

[Ted]

Thanks Smoke for a well stated post and a look at the what it is like on the other side.

 

[ETAV8R]

Thanks Smoke for a well stated post and a look at the what it is like on the other side.

^^^^This

 

[Smokecreek1]

Hope things work out there! You guys can take me on a visit if it does, or maybe I'll write that nasty letter if it doesn't-but doing something about the problem is better than having another drink and doing nothing-sometimes!

Smoke

 

[clikrf8]

I have never been there, either, but depending on weather and time, we may drive on the Saline Valley Road if this is the one near/in Death Valley. That's the one I have highlighted on the map.

My feeling is that if it is already developed, then maintain that level. The problem is money or lack of. The big RVs and whatever can have their FHU and think they are camping. If it already has official trails, then keep it that way whether for 4x4, ORV, dirt bike, mountain bike, anything with wheels. if there are hiking trails, allow and don't upgrade (downgrade?) to motorized trails. Have either primitive or dispersed camping with setback rules like not camping over grass or by a stream and certainly no new fire pits. If it is truly a wilderness, with endangered species, special unique features, then leave it that way so future generations can enjoy what we have saved. Hiking is fine, on trails, no new ones and no motorized.

Practice Leave No Trace, try to leave it cleaner than how you found it, etc. I am not happy about the permit system for the Wave, but too many people will trash it by graffiti, fire pits, trash, etc. I'd rather not win the lottery for a permit than see it ruined. Even with signs, people are still stupid, careless, arrogant. At Yosemite, they are restoring fields and there are international signs indicating that no off trail use is allowed. A hiking boot about to step on grass is circled in red with a red diagonal slash. Few people obeyed. One couple I pointed out the sign to just shrugged. What do you do about such people? The trouble is that the world loves our wild areas and come by the busloads.

I don't like what others have said they think the government agencies are headed: one extreme or another. Full campgrounds or wilderness. Surely there should be a place for those of us who avoid crowds and want to explore on our own. And, there are and we have found them on BLM and USFS roads.

Rant over.

 

[Smokecreek1]

Clihrf8, you sound like a rational person, but unfortunately, when it comes to public lands management "emotions" and sometimes money speak louder! I don't know how many land use plans (LUP) i have worked on and then tried to implement over my BLM career. Many moons ago (early 1980's) -before there was a High Rock/Black Rock Desert NCA, there was nothing there but some grazing allotments and ruined springs; but just about everyone felt the area (HR) needed some type of special designation and if all things went right---maybe, just maybe one day we could reintroduce Big Horn Sheep! Soooo, how do you get there, well number one-get the horses, cattle and sheep out? How? We put a LUP together called on all the interest groups for comments, etc., called meeting, did tours- did all the usual things-and faced all the usual user/saver group comments, stalls, and refusing to change because Grand Dad did it that way, , I don't trust BLM or the Government, save the horses., what about minerals etc.. The problem was getting the people together to solve the problems and not just spending their time yelling at each other!

My old BLM District Manager(DM)-a wise old range con, got tired of it all, and here is the point I'm trying to make, he got all the interest groups/people and shipped them up to our field camp in High Rock Canyon-Stevens Camp, gave "em food and some booze and told them to come up with a plan! We-the resource staff, were sent along to drive the trucks and answer any questions anyone had. They could not leave because we had the transportation! After a few days of being stuck together, cooking and eating meals (and feeding my dog-wolfer-chicken when I was not looking), a drink or two and lot's of cussing and discussing around the camp fire, lot's of driving and looking, people started to come together, like our best cooks turned out to be a wild horse gal, and an the ORV guy! Lot's of strange alliances and friendships were formed out there. What I'm trying to say, is so over time, they were now working with people-they now knew as a person-not a thing, and because of that, after several days, a plan was worked out and while it still did take lot's of years, changes and meetings, draft plans and the such,to implement - it happened!

To get to that rational state, first you got to get people together! One of the reasons , congress to broke is because they go home every weekend and listen to people they agree with-the true believers, instead of staying in town-you know have dinner and drink, do something together and get to know the "Enemy" as people not just as "them". Maybe we have reached a point that this is not possible anymore, I sure hope not, but that old DM sure had a good idea, and he used it several more times when difficult things needed to be done. Enough talk, I must be boring you guys, but it worked!


Smoke

 

[LuckyDan]

I don't like what others have said they think the government agencies are headed: one extreme or another. Full campgrounds or wilderness. Surely there should be a place for those of us who avoid crowds and want to explore on our own. And, there are and we have found them on BLM and USFS roads.

Rant over.

If you want to keep that ability to explore on your own in those places special to you, as I mentioned in my earlier post it is in your best interest to make your opinion heard when the opportunity presents itself and/or support those organizations that share your view. Smokecreek covered it in that when the opportunity to express an opinion occurs, often few people or no one shows up or writes in. Thus little is known from an input perspective to influence the decision to be anything but the proposed action. For example the responsible agencies are currently deciding on management for sage grouse. The area in question IIRC covers from western Colorado and Wyoming through a lot of Idaho, Utah and Nevada to include most of south central and south east Oregon. Maybe even the Surprise Valley part of California. If some of the disturbing factors are human activity, be it commercial, residential or recreational those places you currently visit now may not be as easily accessible or seasonally unaccessible in the future. I'd guess a lot of followers of this forum are unaware there is discussion going on. Just as I had no idea about Saline Valley before reading about it here. The point to this is if you have an interest in an area under Federal, State or Local management and have an opinion your ability to have some influence is when the topic is "Ripe" for decision.

Travel On Wanderers......