Shortening the body, Lengthen the overhead.

Gerdo

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The couple of FWCs that I'm trying to look at are both older long bed models. I'm going to have to gut and rebuild the floor pack (narrow from 64" down to 58"). Since I'll be down to the frame anyway I'm thinking about shortening the body/floor pack and lengthening the overhead. Basically I'm thinking of moving the front wall toward the rear (yes I can weld aluminum). The old models have a very short overhead and after I modify it should be close to the length of a newer one.

Can anyone think of a reason that this can't be done?
 
When asked about building queen sized beds that do not require the pull out, FWC has said they are working on it but that it isn't ready yet. Perhaps they can share some things they've found in doing this.

Off the top of my head the issues you face are:
cantilever strength
COG concerns - most concern probably should someone jump into the bunk while not tied to a truck.

That's about all I can think of.
 
At some point you'll be better off starting from scratch and not being forced into compromises based on existing compromises. I suspect that such a project is treading on the cusp of this. This is the sort of thing that is hard to see from the front of the project, but is plainly obvious in hindsight. BT, DT on my own projects as well as those for customers.
 
At some point you'll be better off starting from scratch and not being forced into compromises based on existing compromises. I suspect that such a project is treading on the cusp of this. This is the sort of thing that is hard to see from the front of the project, but is plainly obvious in hindsight. BT, DT on my own projects as well as those for customers.


Hard to say, starting with a current rig gets you a complete roof that is matched to the upper camper outline, including the front radius corners which would take a bit of effort to make at home. I'd take a good look at what the cantilever pieces look like and how long into the main camper they go to evaluate their ability to handle the additional cantilever. Even if you rework a bunch of the lower frame as long as you didn't spend much on the camper you'll probably come out ahead verse starting from scratch.

But it'll be a fairly involved project either way.

Gerdo, I forgot did you mention what kind of welder you have (mig or tig)? Some of the folks that have make modifications/repairs to their FWC frames have said the metal is thin and difficult to work with on a mig setup, just food for thought in case you hadn't read that in your research.
 
What I was after and didn't get across is that starting a new frame vs. modifying the existing frame. No doubt that using an existing camper offers a lot of equipment & fit advantages.

It's not just if the cantilevered beams reach far enough back into the bulk of the frame. Unless the camper is way over-built the height of the beams or truss' will need to increase as their length is extended. You might be able to do it based on proportion and percentage of change from the existing, but unless/until it fails you won't know if you're right or wrong. I'd start start with getting a CE or ME to do the cantilever beam static analysis, or show you how to do them, so that you can establish what the beam/truss size needs to be. I have a CE/CM "cheat sheet" here for doing those initial calcs, but as it's a zerox copy it won't scan worth a darn.
 
ntsqd, I got what you were saying and in my mind it was part of my statement: "I'd take a good look at what the cantilever pieces look like and how long into the main camper they go to evaluate their ability to handle the additional cantilever." You definitely should calculate or get help calculating the load rating for it under an extended scenario. I'm not sure if FWC uses different aluminum sizing between the regular and extended cabover units so there might be the possibility of getting away with what is there. Or since he can weld aluminum the cantilever may just need additional material on the top/bottom (which is where the strength in the beam is), heck might even me able to rivet stuff on there just as easily.
 
The web is just as important.

Only in as far as it's needed to keep the upper and lower flanges equidistant.

I'm suspecting that it would be better (lighter) to design and build a dedicated truss structure of small section box tube than to build a large boxed or 'I' type beam. Assuming that it didn't run into other things of importance I'd run the truss structure clear to the rear of the camper and the full height of the lower cab-over portion, and then support it over the truck's bed - perhaps with the remnants of the original frame.

Doing something like this may or may not be easy with the existing frame. I'll guess that only a few would know for sure until the skin is removed. May even need to increase the depth (slightly?) of the lower cab-over portion to get enough strength in the truss, no idea just sitting here.
 
JohnF, as ntsqd said the web just holds to flanges in place for the most part. Off hand from photo memory FWC uses a big C-channel extrusion for the cabover if I'm recalling right. Shooting from the hip I'd suspect the web thickness is probably quite adequate in that shape, but again one should always verify.

ntsqd, again shooting from the hip I highly doubt the beam depth would need to be really be increased to avoid overly large flanges in the beam shape. I'm basing this off the calcs I was doing for my fiberglass build to which aluminum has a higher strength. I've got a 60" long cantilever and it was notable what a 1/8"x2" strip of aluminum flat bar on the top flange would do for my calcs (but I didn't go that route due to concerns about long term bonding to fiberglass). The reality is failure strength is going to a secondary concern to acceptable deflection in my mind.

Gerdo, I'd drop teleturns over on expo a message to find out some details on the older camper framing, he's got his quite exposed: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/61346-Four-Wheel-Camper-Flatbed-Conversion
 
JohnF, as ntsqd said the web just holds to flanges in place for the most part. Off hand from photo memory FWC uses a big C-channel extrusion for the cabover if I'm recalling right. Shooting from the hip I'd suspect the web thickness is probably quite adequate in that shape, but again one should always verify.

ntsqd, again shooting from the hip I highly doubt the beam depth would need to be really be increased to avoid overly large flanges in the beam shape. I'm basing this off the calcs I was doing for my fiberglass build to which aluminum has a higher strength. I've got a 60" long cantilever and it was notable what a 1/8"x2" strip of aluminum flat bar on the top flange would do for my calcs (but I didn't go that route due to concerns about long term bonding to fiberglass). The reality is failure strength is going to a secondary concern to acceptable deflection in my mind.

Gerdo, I'd drop teleturns over on expo a message to find out some details on the older camper framing, he's got his quite exposed: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/61346-Four-Wheel-Camper-Flatbed-Conversion


Somewhere I thought I had seen a stripped frame, that may be the one. It looked like the overhead framing was a band that went from the back, around the front and down the other side the the back again.

I'm thinking that IF I buy an old unit, the length is more useful than increasing the size of the overhang. This thread is a moot point.

Also If I rebuild a FWC, this won't be the last truck it'll be on. My present truck is a 98 ford with 235,000+ miles on it. I have my eye on my stepmother's newer Tundra.
 
Only in as far as it's needed to keep the upper and lower flanges equidistant.

JohnF, as ntsqd said the web just holds to flanges in place for the most part.

I'm aware what the web is for.
 
I'm thinking that IF I buy an old unit, the length is more useful than increasing the size of the overhang. This thread is a moot point.


Oh sure throw a couple rocks at the technical bee hive then run away. :LOL:

I'm aware what the web is for.


No one said you didn't but you also didn't express what your concerns about the web in this particular instance was.

You did pick out a portion of my statement saying the strength of the beam is in the flanges, which if the web is doing it's job is correct. In the application we are talking about I would wager most aluminum profiles are going to have an overly robust web just due to manufacturing the shape so if the flanges need a little additional material I wouldn't automatically assume the web would as well (but always verify). This is just my by inspection starting point that I'd look into first based on what I've seen in person and in pictures of the design.
 
pods,
My recollection is that deflection goes down as the distance between the flanges goes up (so long as the web is robust enough to do it's job), but load bearing increases with flange width to a greater extent than does stiffness. I was thinking more about acceptable deflection than absolute strength so operating within the existing wall thickness I saw increasing the height of the beam or truss as the obvious solution.

The asymmetric support of the flanges in a 'C' section coupled with their loss of load carrying ability when torsion is present really puts me off of them, which is partly why I started thinking in terms of a fabricated truss rather than an extruded shape. I suppose they're a viable shape if the surrounding structure can keep them from crumpling in the presence of torsion, but I'd just rather avoid that issue altogether.
 
The taller the profile the less material you can get away with to accomplish what you want generally speaking. However that isn't to say you can't just beef up the thickness in the same profile height to increase stiffness, within reason.

The "C" is going off memory, there is a chance it's a box but I think the floor is supported on the lower lip so that wouldn't accommodate a box profile. However the wall of the cab over rail is ~1" wide so something fills out that area whether it's structural or not I'm not sure. Probably some better frame photos with the floor removed floating around somewhere...

Edit: Check out this thread in which Brandon gutted and started rebuilding an older hawk. Looks like the rest of the C-channel is just filled in with wood on the older units, not sure if that is how they still do it. http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2966/

Edit 2: Here is another where the bed floor was replaced with lots of pics: http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/530/
 
Oh sure throw a couple rocks at the technical bee hive then run away. :LOL:



This will give all you brainiacs something to ponder on.
 
No one said you didn't but you also didn't express what your concerns about the web in this particular instance was.

Fair enough. And thanks by the way, I was having a tough time leaving this alone.

First I'll just point out the parts that "raised my hackles" as it were. You said that the flanges were "most important" which isn't true, every part of a beam design is important. The you said "most of the strength is in the flanges" which is also not true, most of the strength in a (I'm adding an assumption at this point but I think it is fair) economical beam design is in d. ntsqd said "Only in as far as it's needed to keep the upper and lower flanges equidistant;" well yeah, but a very important job it is!

Now to the issue: We are taking a beam that we should assume is designed to be economical that is configured as a cantilever from a given fulcrum. We will just assume that the load on the entire beam is uniform. Moving the fulcrum such that the cantilever section is lengthened will increase the moment on the cantilever and the shear with the highest shear values at the fulcrum. The web does not participate in carrying the moment much at all but does carry the shear stress. The web was sized for some shear stress and having moved the fulcrum we can exceed this. The web will crush/buckle, d decreases, the capacity of the beam decreases and stuff happens.

I didn't say there would be an issue because I have no idea. I believe that usually when an engineered beam fails the mode is torsional buckling of the compression flange. Part of the reason this is the usual failure mode is because most beam designs have stout webs due it being really easy and not very costly to over engineer and using web stiffness to counter torsional stress (which creates a web with way more material needed for the shear stresses). I wouldn't expect this in our case because I believe the compression flange is fully restrained through the skin stuff that is the bottom of the overhang and being fully boxed at the ends so it is probably over engineered for torsional stress. (heh, the webs of the cantilevers are flanges to a big horizontal beam by the way.) I would expect our venture to cause web crushing with subsequent yield failure in the compression flange.

BUT, I don't know. I know nothing about the beam design they've used.

[edit: I should have kept reading...]

Adding d is always the choice when allowed given yield strength of materials and resistance to torsional buckling. Web is cheap.

The compression flange is (I believe anyway) fully restrained so torsion probably isn't going to be the first thing we run into.

I was thinking it was a box so I really thought Pods8's instinct was safe enough and leaving the web discussion alone was fine. Now that I see that it is a C things are different. If there is wood inside the C then this can act like a beam inside a beam. In fact, if the C doesn't have this then we can add it compensate for the delta shear/moment being aware that we move load concentrations so we need to go far enough that shear/moment stresses are at least as low as they are with the original. (which is further than the original fulcrum by a bit.)

[edit #2]
So, I left this and went a watch a bit of TV and suddenly it occurred to me that it is really common to add web thickness and doublers in wing spar designs - like the wood beam I mentioned above. Rivet some angle along both flanges to the flange and then rivet a doubler for the web across the angle(so, original web, angle, web doubler). Oh, all of this on the inside of the C.
 
JohnF, all good stuff, and yup easy enough to add material onto a C as needed (that is what I was saying above). On thing I'm leaning towards though is the web on the factory C isn't so much engineered as much as what was practical in forming the beam which as you mentioned is often over engineered (but always double check). Again though if one did need to add material its feasible to do when bare frame.

This will give all you brainiacs something to ponder on.


That's what happens when there is more time available to ponder verse actually roll up the sleeves. :LOL:
 
Given that time to build is less of a concern than if this were a production venture I would be more inclined to build the support structure as a truss from box tube than from any extruded shape. Though sometimes mass is the simplest, geometry always trumps it for strength & stiffness.

Yesterday as I was thinking about this it occurred to me that there are both point loads and distributed load(s) involved. To make life more interesting, those point loads are dynamic but not very smoothly so. Though I doubt that there's cause for a total dynamic analysis, just that FS's need adjusting to compensate.
 
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