TravelingFirefighter
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- Jul 30, 2011
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1991 Grandby spotted on Craigslist in Southern California. $1,400 Inland Empire/Yucaipa area http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/rvs/2521534514.html
Used FWC camper alert
- Thread starter TravelingFirefighter
- Start date
natjwest
Contributors
This might be an extremely good deal. But living in SoCal and AZ, it might have roof leaks that no one knows about.
pods8
Contributors
The front jack is pretty off kilter in the picture too, would definitely want to eye up that corner of the camper. Price seems worth checking it out if one was interested though.
The front jack is pretty off kilter in the picture too, would definitely want to eye up that corner of the camper. Price seems worth checking it out if one was interested though.
That corner isn't too bad. The bracket for the jack is bent. The jacks are old hydraulic units (mis-matched, no less), and are all pretty much junk.
The right rear corner has some structural damage (both vertical tubes on the corner are broken, and someone did a craptastic repair job on them (screwed some steel plates across the broken spots). 5' of aluminum tubing and a few minutes with a welder will have it back in good shape.
No signs of leaks from the roof, normal wear on the fabric top - but still has some life left. Counter, seats, floor & cabinet are what you would expect from a 20 year old camper (usable, but ugly).
It definitely needs some love. Fortunately, I like projects.
That corner isn't too bad. The bracket for the jack is bent. The jacks are old hydraulic units (mis-matched, no less), and are all pretty much junk.
The right rear corner has some structural damage (both vertical tubes on the corner are broken, and someone did a craptastic repair job on them (screwed some steel plates across the broken spots). 5' of aluminum tubing and a few minutes with a welder will have it back in good shape.
No signs of leaks from the roof, normal wear on the fabric top - but still has some life left. Counter, seats, floor & cabinet are what you would expect from a 20 year old camper (usable, but ugly).
It definitely needs some love. Fortunately, I like projects.
Mark W. Ingalls
Contributors
awesome
Since I'm new here - some background.
On a bit of a whim, I bought the camper listed in the first post of this thread. The price was about right. I planned on gutting it - so the thrashed interior didn't bother me. I'm kind of handy, so I figured I'd bull-**** my way through any little problems that came up. I've never built, rebuilt, or even repaired a camper before. I've never built any sort of cabinets before - well, not out of wood anyway. I've built roll cages, bumpers, skid plates, rock sliders, and all sorts of other steel parts. I've pulled my share of wire, and plumbed enough water and air systems to know that I don't want to do that for a living - but a camper? Never tried it.
I've always liked the concept of pop-up campers. Aluminum frames are even better. But I've never really liked the execution of the FWC. The interiors always seem dated, and I've always been indifferent (at best) of the aluminum siding - although that has grown on me. I've also never been a fan of the interior layout. The 'big picture' is fine - it's just the execution. Too much wasted space. Too much bulk storage, not enough 'organized and accessible' storage. Just not very user friendly - at least for me. I have to give them a lot of credit for what they do - they've been in business for a long time, and are having trouble keeping up with orders, so someone must like what they're doing. Right?
Anyway, here was my chance to see if I could stumble my way through a rebuild and end up with something that was a little more, uh, 'me'.
Enough jaw-flapping. As my previous post said - out with the old.
On a bit of a whim, I bought the camper listed in the first post of this thread. The price was about right. I planned on gutting it - so the thrashed interior didn't bother me. I'm kind of handy, so I figured I'd bull-**** my way through any little problems that came up. I've never built, rebuilt, or even repaired a camper before. I've never built any sort of cabinets before - well, not out of wood anyway. I've built roll cages, bumpers, skid plates, rock sliders, and all sorts of other steel parts. I've pulled my share of wire, and plumbed enough water and air systems to know that I don't want to do that for a living - but a camper? Never tried it.
I've always liked the concept of pop-up campers. Aluminum frames are even better. But I've never really liked the execution of the FWC. The interiors always seem dated, and I've always been indifferent (at best) of the aluminum siding - although that has grown on me. I've also never been a fan of the interior layout. The 'big picture' is fine - it's just the execution. Too much wasted space. Too much bulk storage, not enough 'organized and accessible' storage. Just not very user friendly - at least for me. I have to give them a lot of credit for what they do - they've been in business for a long time, and are having trouble keeping up with orders, so someone must like what they're doing. Right?
Anyway, here was my chance to see if I could stumble my way through a rebuild and end up with something that was a little more, uh, 'me'.
Enough jaw-flapping. As my previous post said - out with the old.
With the interior being, more or less, completely removed and safely stored in a dumpster - I turned my attention to the biggest question mark the whole project had; the right rear corner.
It was tweaked - bad. The twisted jack mounts didn't help, but it looked like the frame was either bent pretty bad, or outright broken. So, before investing any more time in the camper, I decided to pull the siding back and have a look. What I found wasn't encouraging.
It was tweaked - bad. The twisted jack mounts didn't help, but it looked like the frame was either bent pretty bad, or outright broken. So, before investing any more time in the camper, I decided to pull the siding back and have a look. What I found wasn't encouraging.
I'm not sure what happened - but I suspect that at some point, someone backed into a rock or tree with the jack, and broke the frame. Of course, they followed this up with a crap-tastic repair job: basically they took a couple pieces of flat steel strap and a hand full of sheet metal screws, and you can probably figure the rest out.
That corner was so full of holes that it was completely unusable. In a stroke of luck, I discovered that I didn't have to cut the corner uprights out. Nope, all I had to do was grab them with two fingers and pull. Yay.
Now, I don't know how many of you weld aluminum - I never have. Well, at that point in the project, I never had. Anyway, FWC uses .040" wall aluminum tube for the frames - at least they did in 1991. That is too thin we weld with a stick welder, or even a MIG. You burn through about 1/2,000 of a second after you strike an arc. Even the guys at Miller (who actually know what the heck they are doing) will tell you to not waste your time. Apparently they didn't fully understand how hard headed I can be.
It took some trial and error (and a lot of scrap), but managed to weld new corner uprights in there with a MIG. The trick was to go for a lot of surface area, putting as much of the heat into the new (thicker) uprights, and letting the puddle run into the thin tube - breaking the arc as soon as the puddle reached the old piece. Using scab plates, I increased the surface area substantially, in an effort to offset the lack of penetration I was getting. The welds weren't that pretty, but they survived the hammer test. Honestly - I wouldn't recommend this as it was a huge pain. If I ever do it again - I'll take the frame down to someone with a TIG, and pay them to do it right.
Anyway, since some of the siding didn't fare so well being pulled back - and there were a few holes that needed to be filled anyway, I decided to replace all of it. So, off it came, followed by the insulation.
Looking at the other corners, it appears that there have been several sets of jacks installed - leaving behind too many holes to reliably mount a new set of jacks. I contemplated cutting the remaining 3 corners out and replacing all the uprights - but without a TIG, it was too much of a pain. Since the structural integrity was there, all I needed was a fresh piece of aluminum to screw the jack brackets to. In the end, I used a piece of .065" thick, 2" wide, aluminum angle. Using an aluminum epoxy, I basically glued the angle to the existing uprights. I managed about 48 square inches of contact per corner. The epoxy has a shear strength of 2,600 pounds per inch - so it isn't going anywhere. To avoid over-stiffening the frame (resulting in fatigue at the joints), the angle was only attached to the vertical pieces in the corners - the upper and lower horizontal pieces are not attached to the new angle. The result is a fresh surface to attach the jacks to, without interfering with the frames ability to flex at the joints.
Since I had the welding gear out, I went ahead and moved the propane tank enclosure out of the 'kitchen', to the lower left corner. I added one horizontal piece of tube to frame in the top. It's a tight fit between the exterior wall and the door frame - but it fits. It's going to take some modification of the access hatch down the road - but it frees up a ton of space under the counter top. Essentially, I'm trading bulk storage for cabinet space - an exchange well worth the costs, to me anyway.
That corner was so full of holes that it was completely unusable. In a stroke of luck, I discovered that I didn't have to cut the corner uprights out. Nope, all I had to do was grab them with two fingers and pull. Yay.
Now, I don't know how many of you weld aluminum - I never have. Well, at that point in the project, I never had. Anyway, FWC uses .040" wall aluminum tube for the frames - at least they did in 1991. That is too thin we weld with a stick welder, or even a MIG. You burn through about 1/2,000 of a second after you strike an arc. Even the guys at Miller (who actually know what the heck they are doing) will tell you to not waste your time. Apparently they didn't fully understand how hard headed I can be.
It took some trial and error (and a lot of scrap), but managed to weld new corner uprights in there with a MIG. The trick was to go for a lot of surface area, putting as much of the heat into the new (thicker) uprights, and letting the puddle run into the thin tube - breaking the arc as soon as the puddle reached the old piece. Using scab plates, I increased the surface area substantially, in an effort to offset the lack of penetration I was getting. The welds weren't that pretty, but they survived the hammer test. Honestly - I wouldn't recommend this as it was a huge pain. If I ever do it again - I'll take the frame down to someone with a TIG, and pay them to do it right.
Anyway, since some of the siding didn't fare so well being pulled back - and there were a few holes that needed to be filled anyway, I decided to replace all of it. So, off it came, followed by the insulation.
Looking at the other corners, it appears that there have been several sets of jacks installed - leaving behind too many holes to reliably mount a new set of jacks. I contemplated cutting the remaining 3 corners out and replacing all the uprights - but without a TIG, it was too much of a pain. Since the structural integrity was there, all I needed was a fresh piece of aluminum to screw the jack brackets to. In the end, I used a piece of .065" thick, 2" wide, aluminum angle. Using an aluminum epoxy, I basically glued the angle to the existing uprights. I managed about 48 square inches of contact per corner. The epoxy has a shear strength of 2,600 pounds per inch - so it isn't going anywhere. To avoid over-stiffening the frame (resulting in fatigue at the joints), the angle was only attached to the vertical pieces in the corners - the upper and lower horizontal pieces are not attached to the new angle. The result is a fresh surface to attach the jacks to, without interfering with the frames ability to flex at the joints.
Since I had the welding gear out, I went ahead and moved the propane tank enclosure out of the 'kitchen', to the lower left corner. I added one horizontal piece of tube to frame in the top. It's a tight fit between the exterior wall and the door frame - but it fits. It's going to take some modification of the access hatch down the road - but it frees up a ton of space under the counter top. Essentially, I'm trading bulk storage for cabinet space - an exchange well worth the costs, to me anyway.
natjwest
Contributors
Great pics and story, keep it up. I plan a 1991 Grandby interior remodel myself at some point. Interesting idea about the propane relocation, I might have to do that since I'm going to ditch the furnace for a Wave. Then I can keep the old propane door for an external storage location but reduce the depth of the area to regain interior storage. Could you provide a close-up picture of the propane tank area, possibly with the tank set in there for relative size?
I am planning to get the water cube out of the kitchen cabinet and under the front window in a bench-type seat. You might think about that too. I think just making a longer filler hose would work. Although in my old crap camper, I only ever filled the tank from inside via a hatch I put into it. Interior filling comes in super handy in foul weather.
Oh and WELCOME TO THE GROUP!
I am planning to get the water cube out of the kitchen cabinet and under the front window in a bench-type seat. You might think about that too. I think just making a longer filler hose would work. Although in my old crap camper, I only ever filled the tank from inside via a hatch I put into it. Interior filling comes in super handy in foul weather.
Oh and WELCOME TO THE GROUP!
Barko1
Senior Member
What happened? I heard you say " a few minutes with a welder will have it back in good shape." 
Projects always have a way of being more. Looks like you are well on the way to having a great camper!
Projects always have a way of being more. Looks like you are well on the way to having a great camper!
Interesting idea about the propane relocation, I might have to do that since I'm going to ditch the furnace for a Wave.
I'll provide more details soon. It's not as simple as I would have liked, but it's not overly complicated.
I am planning to get the water cube out of the kitchen cabinet and under the front window in a bench-type seat.
Yup - already done. In fact, the camper is pretty much wrapped up. Just waiting for my girlfriend to finish the curtains.
What happened? I heard you say " a few minutes with a welder will have it back in good shape."
Projects always have a way of being more. Looks like you are well on the way to having a great camper!
Like most of my projects, this one got a bit out of control.
I had a bit of learning to do with this one (which is why I liked it so much). I've worked with steel quite a bit, and am fairly proficient with it. Aluminum is a little different to work with - but I wasn't expecting as many problems as I had. I probably should have used my standard time-estimating method of figuring out how long it should take, then multiplying that number by 4 . . .
I'll provide more details soon. It's not as simple as I would have liked, but it's not overly complicated.
I am planning to get the water cube out of the kitchen cabinet and under the front window in a bench-type seat.
Yup - already done. In fact, the camper is pretty much wrapped up. Just waiting for my girlfriend to finish the curtains.
What happened? I heard you say " a few minutes with a welder will have it back in good shape."
Projects always have a way of being more. Looks like you are well on the way to having a great camper!
Like most of my projects, this one got a bit out of control.
I had a bit of learning to do with this one (which is why I liked it so much). I've worked with steel quite a bit, and am fairly proficient with it. Aluminum is a little different to work with - but I wasn't expecting as many problems as I had. I probably should have used my standard time-estimating method of figuring out how long it should take, then multiplying that number by 4 . . .
Mark W. Ingalls
Contributors
We share the same spirit. Keep on.
pods8
Contributors
Entertaining stuff, coming along well.
What are you going to use for the new siding?
What are you going to use for the new siding?
Entertaining stuff, coming along well.
What are you going to use for the new siding?
I used aluminum siding that the casual observer won't be able to tell apart from what FWC uses. More details on the siding and all of the factors that led to my decision to replace it will come a little later (I don't have access to the photo's until I get home). As with most projects, there were costs and benefits that had to be weighed at each corner. Much of the decision making was done early on, but I haven't laid it all out yet in an effort to keep the story (such that it is) flowing a little better.
More photos tonight - I promise.
Always happy to answer questions . . .
What are you going to use for the new siding?
I used aluminum siding that the casual observer won't be able to tell apart from what FWC uses. More details on the siding and all of the factors that led to my decision to replace it will come a little later (I don't have access to the photo's until I get home). As with most projects, there were costs and benefits that had to be weighed at each corner. Much of the decision making was done early on, but I haven't laid it all out yet in an effort to keep the story (such that it is) flowing a little better.
More photos tonight - I promise.
Always happy to answer questions . . .
highz
Retreaded
I admire your willingness to add to your skills and your daring to take on the project. I'll enjoy following the rest of the overhaul.
Thanks so much for all the kind words. These projects are almost always a lot of fun - even though my girlfriend will tell you that they consume me, and she never gets to see me until I'm finished. I'm afraid she might be right - at least to some degree. But she's happy now - we'll spend our first night in the camper the day after tomorrow . . .
Anyway, I had a pretty blank slate once I had everything pulled out. During the reconstruction process, I was unsure if I would have the money left in the budget for a new fabric top, so I didn't want to deal with having to remove the roof if I didn't have to. I ended up leaving the top strip of siding on the camper as a means to anchor the roof in place. This actually worked very well - I didn't have any problems other than getting air flow through the camper to keep me cooled off (I rebuilt the camper during August and September, in Tucson - it was upwards of 100* in the garage almost every afternoon).
The first step was to get some walls up. I bought the cheapest paneling I could find (Home Depot, $4/sheet). Since there were no big spans to cover, the fact that the sheets wouldn't lay flat wasn't a concern - I just stapled them to the frame and that was that. Speaking of staplers - I used a Bostich narrow crown stapler that had an adjustment to control the depth of the staple. This proved to be useful when I was changing materials through the process. It had no problem punching through the aluminum frame - but the staples didn't like going through some of the thicker material that I used to repair the corners. Anyway, once the paneling was up, I went through and covered the staples with some flexible wood filler. I don't really like the 'feel' of contact paper, so my hope was (is?) that the flexible filler won't crack and pop out as the camper flexes during use. This would (in my mind anyway) allow me to simply paint the interior, rather than cover it with paper (plastic).
If I were to do it again - I wouldn't use the same paneling. Later in the project, I found some 5mm plywood at Lowes that was only $1/sheet more, and was much nicer to work with. It would lay flat and was rigid enough to cut with a table saw - the stuff I used wasn't.
Anyway, I had a pretty blank slate once I had everything pulled out. During the reconstruction process, I was unsure if I would have the money left in the budget for a new fabric top, so I didn't want to deal with having to remove the roof if I didn't have to. I ended up leaving the top strip of siding on the camper as a means to anchor the roof in place. This actually worked very well - I didn't have any problems other than getting air flow through the camper to keep me cooled off (I rebuilt the camper during August and September, in Tucson - it was upwards of 100* in the garage almost every afternoon).
The first step was to get some walls up. I bought the cheapest paneling I could find (Home Depot, $4/sheet). Since there were no big spans to cover, the fact that the sheets wouldn't lay flat wasn't a concern - I just stapled them to the frame and that was that. Speaking of staplers - I used a Bostich narrow crown stapler that had an adjustment to control the depth of the staple. This proved to be useful when I was changing materials through the process. It had no problem punching through the aluminum frame - but the staples didn't like going through some of the thicker material that I used to repair the corners. Anyway, once the paneling was up, I went through and covered the staples with some flexible wood filler. I don't really like the 'feel' of contact paper, so my hope was (is?) that the flexible filler won't crack and pop out as the camper flexes during use. This would (in my mind anyway) allow me to simply paint the interior, rather than cover it with paper (plastic).
If I were to do it again - I wouldn't use the same paneling. Later in the project, I found some 5mm plywood at Lowes that was only $1/sheet more, and was much nicer to work with. It would lay flat and was rigid enough to cut with a table saw - the stuff I used wasn't.
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