Webasto or Espar
- Thread starter eyemgh
- Start date
SkyP
Senior Member
I've run both at times in vans, but not in a FWC. Typically not as easy to put one in a truck camper.
I have used Webasto, not in a FWC but in a Pisten Bully. When they work, they are great, fairly quiet and lots of heat. However my experience was that they were not all that reliable and required significant maintenance to stop them from having issues with soot and fuel flow. Also while the heater itself was pretty quiet, the fuel pump and exhaust were fairly noisy. I have not used an Espar.eyemgh said:
What is your concern about condensation? None of the externally vented heaters produce condensation inside the camper.
We get some condensation, but as you say that, it’s probably just from us. I had read in several other WTW posts that they were happy with these types of systems and specifically mentioned condensation as one of the reasons. Maybe they were comparing to something like a Mr. Heater though without specifically mentioning it. I’ve also heard they are quiet.rando said:
That said, I’ve read the soot problem is a significant issue. Given where they typically live, cleaning them is not exactly easy.
Really, just looking for what you’ve both given, first hand experience with pros/cons. Thanks!
You might consider a Propex - I can't say that they are "quiet" but they seem a bit more robust than the typical RV heater.
For silence, maybe a vented catalytic heater? I forgot the brand, but they have all the benefits of a "mr buddy" type without the condensation issues.
For silence, maybe a vented catalytic heater? I forgot the brand, but they have all the benefits of a "mr buddy" type without the condensation issues.
This is the vented catalytic one I was thinking of - ThePlatCat (ventedcatheater.com)
ramblinChet
Gone Traveling
Condensation is a by-product of using propane heaters in an enclosed space. Much water/humidity is produced.
I am very interested in installing a diesel and/or gas heater in my FWC also and would like to learn more about the carbon build up/soot issues. From my reading it sounds like using the correct sized unit for an application along with proper installation and maintenance are keys to successful use.
Correct size - I recall reading somewhere that with these types of heaters it is better to have a slightly undersized unit that burns longer compared to an oversized unit that burns for short periods. I wish they provided more information on this subject although some companies do speak in generalities such as this is appropriate for a truck/van or mid-sized RV or larger applications, etc.
Proper installation - intake and exhaust length and angles seem to be important. From what I have read a shorter and straighter intake and exhaust are preferred while going longer increases maintenance. This make sense since the longer lengths can be associated with more restriction and a richer mixture.
Maintenance - somewhere I read that white smoke on start up is an indicator that maintenance is required while continuous while smoke is an indication that maintenance is long overdue.
It has been my experience with many other wonderful machines that if they are not properly sized, installed and maintained there will be unexpected problems. Germans, Swiss, etc. are know for their strict attention to detail, following instructions, etc. so it is my theory that many of the problem we read about on forums are associated with improper sizing, installation or maintenance. I am going to purchase one myself since burning propane which converts into carbon monoxide is not ideal for my application. I just need to select the ideal size and install it correctly in a location where I can easily maintain it.
I am very interested in installing a diesel and/or gas heater in my FWC also and would like to learn more about the carbon build up/soot issues. From my reading it sounds like using the correct sized unit for an application along with proper installation and maintenance are keys to successful use.
Correct size - I recall reading somewhere that with these types of heaters it is better to have a slightly undersized unit that burns longer compared to an oversized unit that burns for short periods. I wish they provided more information on this subject although some companies do speak in generalities such as this is appropriate for a truck/van or mid-sized RV or larger applications, etc.
Proper installation - intake and exhaust length and angles seem to be important. From what I have read a shorter and straighter intake and exhaust are preferred while going longer increases maintenance. This make sense since the longer lengths can be associated with more restriction and a richer mixture.
Maintenance - somewhere I read that white smoke on start up is an indicator that maintenance is required while continuous while smoke is an indication that maintenance is long overdue.
It has been my experience with many other wonderful machines that if they are not properly sized, installed and maintained there will be unexpected problems. Germans, Swiss, etc. are know for their strict attention to detail, following instructions, etc. so it is my theory that many of the problem we read about on forums are associated with improper sizing, installation or maintenance. I am going to purchase one myself since burning propane which converts into carbon monoxide is not ideal for my application. I just need to select the ideal size and install it correctly in a location where I can easily maintain it.
There is some confusion going on here. Burning propane in a forced air/vented heater (Dometic, Attwood, Propex, Truma etc) does not introduce any moisture (and thus condensation) or Carbon Monoxide in a camper. Both propane and diesel forced air heaters separate the combustion and exhaust from the heated air and diesel heaters aren't any 'drier' than propane heaters.
Diesel heaters are significantly more complex than propane heaters, the fuel needs to be pumped into the heater and then vaporized before it is burnt within a fairly narrow air/fuel ratio. When everything is adjusted perfectly they certainly can burn very cleanly, however my experience is that in the real world things tend to be less than perfect and they produce soot and need maintenance to address this. I am not sure there is a strong motivation for using diesel over propane, particularly if your vehicle is not already using diesel.
Diesel heaters are significantly more complex than propane heaters, the fuel needs to be pumped into the heater and then vaporized before it is burnt within a fairly narrow air/fuel ratio. When everything is adjusted perfectly they certainly can burn very cleanly, however my experience is that in the real world things tend to be less than perfect and they produce soot and need maintenance to address this. I am not sure there is a strong motivation for using diesel over propane, particularly if your vehicle is not already using diesel.
ramblinChet
Gone Traveling
Thanks for the info rando - I am still confused as to why folks with propane experience so much condensation in their campers while diesel users report much less. If both units are using a combustion chamber then all should be equal since the combustion process is removed from the living space.
What further confused me is the fact that many articles I have read and videos I have watched regarding using a propane heater in an RV commonly mention the chemical process of burning propane and oxygen produces carbon dioxide and water. Thanks again and I am still planning to install a diesel or gas heater since those fuels can be found anywhere and anytime compared to propane. Plus gasoline and diesel still have much more energy per gallon when compared to propane. The icing on the cake is the fact that I will not have a 12k BTU blow torch creating wild temperature swings. A nice 2-4k BTU should work well.
What further confused me is the fact that many articles I have read and videos I have watched regarding using a propane heater in an RV commonly mention the chemical process of burning propane and oxygen produces carbon dioxide and water. Thanks again and I am still planning to install a diesel or gas heater since those fuels can be found anywhere and anytime compared to propane. Plus gasoline and diesel still have much more energy per gallon when compared to propane. The icing on the cake is the fact that I will not have a 12k BTU blow torch creating wild temperature swings. A nice 2-4k BTU should work well.
Everyones priorities and usage scenarios are different and will determine what works for them.
A couple of final points from our experience: 2-4 KBTU is not going to be enough heat if you want to camp in cold conditions. For comparison, this is about 500 - 1000W so the low and medium settings on a standard electric space heater. My experience is this is good for about 20 - 30F temperature rise with the arctic pack installed, so good for down to about freezing, or higher if you want to maintain ventilation to avoid condensation. The Propex HS2000 (7K BTU) seems to be a good starting point for the amount of heat you need to go much below freezing, and is great choice of heater.
If you do use a gas/diesel heater, you will need to be careful of what altitudes you camp at. As mentioned before they require a pretty specific air/fuel ratio to run correctly, and will only burn cleanly in a narrow range of altitudes. If you are on the east coast, this is not an issue, but in the mountain west it is a concern. Even Denver (5300') is too high for the standard Webasto and folks here have to take them to a dealer to get the mixture adjusted for air pressure, and still tend to have sooting issues from running rich when used in the mountains (7000 - 12000'). Here is the altitude spec from Webasto:
https://www.techwebasto.com/documentation/heater/cargoapp.html?download=2481:heater-operation-altitude-capabilities
A couple of final points from our experience: 2-4 KBTU is not going to be enough heat if you want to camp in cold conditions. For comparison, this is about 500 - 1000W so the low and medium settings on a standard electric space heater. My experience is this is good for about 20 - 30F temperature rise with the arctic pack installed, so good for down to about freezing, or higher if you want to maintain ventilation to avoid condensation. The Propex HS2000 (7K BTU) seems to be a good starting point for the amount of heat you need to go much below freezing, and is great choice of heater.
If you do use a gas/diesel heater, you will need to be careful of what altitudes you camp at. As mentioned before they require a pretty specific air/fuel ratio to run correctly, and will only burn cleanly in a narrow range of altitudes. If you are on the east coast, this is not an issue, but in the mountain west it is a concern. Even Denver (5300') is too high for the standard Webasto and folks here have to take them to a dealer to get the mixture adjusted for air pressure, and still tend to have sooting issues from running rich when used in the mountains (7000 - 12000'). Here is the altitude spec from Webasto:
https://www.techwebasto.com/documentation/heater/cargoapp.html?download=2481:heater-operation-altitude-capabilities
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