I have an 83' fwc fleet that I bought recently. Been going through all of the work of cleaning her up and after scrubbing and cleaning the canvas up real nice.. all of the cracks and such in the canvas where folds and the like have become much more noticeable. I was planning on repairing them or filling them in with silicone by brushing it in or swabbing it into the cracks but now I am not so sure. I recently read in another thread that "silicone oil" can eat into "vinyl" and damage it. I'm not exactly sure if my popup canvas has vinyl in it or not. So here I am asking those who have gone before me to learn from other's wisdom and/or mistakes. Thanks for the help.
What to repair cracks/holes in canvas with?
- Thread starter gandhii
- Start date
When you say "...filling them in with silicone...", what silicone product do you mean? Do you have something specific in mind?
I ask because silicone rubber (the kind that starts as a goo or liquid then cures and firms) is different than silicone oil.
Does your canvas soft-side have any plastic/rubbery coating on it -- any apparent, I mean?
I ask because silicone rubber (the kind that starts as a goo or liquid then cures and firms) is different than silicone oil.
Does your canvas soft-side have any plastic/rubbery coating on it -- any apparent, I mean?
GE brand "Silicone II" is what I got sitting here... bought from the local Lowes' Hardware. I have no idea what the difference between silicone oil and silicone rubber is.. ignorance IS NOT BLISS. Ignorance made me think that maybe silicone oil is a component of silicone rubber. Is this not the case? The canvas is the standard kind that came with the FWC in 1983. As I type this I realize that I probably should send an email to the FWC guys and ask them what I should use... but I feel guilty about bugging them over something that hasn't made them any money for almost thirty years. But to answer your question; the canvas does have some sort of plastic or rubbery coating on it. I'm not experienced enough to tell which, but it definitely is waterproof with the exception of where the holes are.
I apologize if I should have asked this in the FWC section... I was unsure whether the question was too general for that or not. At some point, I'll try to take some photos of the holes/cracks that I am talking about.
I've also come across patch kits for awnings that sound like they would be useful. Although it would seem to me to be easier to find out what glue those use or what glue would be good to use and make my own patches since there are so many holes/cracks to patch.
I apologize if I should have asked this in the FWC section... I was unsure whether the question was too general for that or not. At some point, I'll try to take some photos of the holes/cracks that I am talking about.
I've also come across patch kits for awnings that sound like they would be useful. Although it would seem to me to be easier to find out what glue those use or what glue would be good to use and make my own patches since there are so many holes/cracks to patch.
I'd suggest sending a PM to Stan-at-FourWheel here on WTW. Then you won't have to feel guilty about bothering the company, just Stan.
I bet that the silicone sealant you have would work fine -- I wouldn't be afraid to try it if it was my rig. But it sure would be best to get an expert opinion (i.e., not mine). Try asking Stan.
I bet that the silicone sealant you have would work fine -- I wouldn't be afraid to try it if it was my rig. But it sure would be best to get an expert opinion (i.e., not mine). Try asking Stan.
pods8
Contributors
since there are so many holes/cracks to patch.
This line makes me wonder if a total replacement is the better solution here...
This line makes me wonder if a total replacement is the better solution here...
Desert Rancher
Contributors
Boat supply would also be a good start. Most boats are covered with vinyl that sits outside and needs fixin'
But check with Stan or Marty first.
BTW Silicone II is crap.
But check with Stan or Marty first.
BTW Silicone II is crap.
JohnF
Advanced Member
I recently picked up an older popup myself and the liner is a sort of vinyl impregnated cloth. Feels vinyl
on both side and I can see the cross hatch of the material that it encases.
Anyway, if yours is similar - Go to walmart and in the camping section you should find a small bottle of stuff used to patch vinyl mattresses, pool toys, blow-up do..., uh..., dohickies. If the holes and cracks you are talking about are small and both sides of the hole touch each other then this stuff will sort of weld it together. Give it a few coats and do both sides. If the holes are bigger then use the stuff to glue on a vinyl patch.
Mine has one teensy-tiny hole at a corner.
I've also used it to weld a 1/2 inch cut in one of the vinyl windows.
on both side and I can see the cross hatch of the material that it encases.Anyway, if yours is similar - Go to walmart and in the camping section you should find a small bottle of stuff used to patch vinyl mattresses, pool toys, blow-up do..., uh..., dohickies. If the holes and cracks you are talking about are small and both sides of the hole touch each other then this stuff will sort of weld it together. Give it a few coats and do both sides. If the holes are bigger then use the stuff to glue on a vinyl patch.
Mine has one teensy-tiny hole at a corner.
I've also used it to weld a 1/2 inch cut in one of the vinyl windows.
blow-up do..., uh..., dohickies
craig333
Riley's Human
Yeah, I imagine its vinyl not canvas. I'm sure fwc won't mind letting know what the premo stuff is.
x2
sorry for the minor hijack..............now back to repairing cracks and holes
Cracks, holes and do-hickies? What was this thread about again?
btw.. what's wrong with Silicone II? other than being made by the evil dark side of GE? Until recently my experience and knowledge of silicone has only been related to making sure it is pure for aquarium fish tank use. So there is a lot that I do not know.
The holes I am looking at are no more than a millimeter wide or two. But there are quite a few of them.
I'll go ahead and bounce this question off of the many heads at FWC and give some boat shops a call. Thanks for the suggestions.
I think craig333 and JohnF are right in that this is vinyl. It matches their descriptions.
I'm sure pods8 is correct in that a total replacement would be the best solution, but it would also be the most work intensive and expensive as well. And if I had that kind of cash I would have bought something newer. You get what you pay for when you spend well under 1k.
Also... Anyone have any good suggestions of the best ways to remove the layers of silicone and similar caulks in all of the roof joints? Mineral Spirits and a scrub brush? or is there something better? I'd like to clean all of the old gunk out and replace it with new.
Of course.. I'm only really stalling. It keeps raining every weekend here .. so I haven't gotten around to just moving forward with my current best guesses.
btw.. what's wrong with Silicone II? other than being made by the evil dark side of GE? Until recently my experience and knowledge of silicone has only been related to making sure it is pure for aquarium fish tank use. So there is a lot that I do not know.
The holes I am looking at are no more than a millimeter wide or two. But there are quite a few of them.
I'll go ahead and bounce this question off of the many heads at FWC and give some boat shops a call. Thanks for the suggestions.
I think craig333 and JohnF are right in that this is vinyl. It matches their descriptions.
I'm sure pods8 is correct in that a total replacement would be the best solution, but it would also be the most work intensive and expensive as well. And if I had that kind of cash I would have bought something newer. You get what you pay for when you spend well under 1k.
Also... Anyone have any good suggestions of the best ways to remove the layers of silicone and similar caulks in all of the roof joints? Mineral Spirits and a scrub brush? or is there something better? I'd like to clean all of the old gunk out and replace it with new.
Of course.. I'm only really stalling. It keeps raining every weekend here .. so I haven't gotten around to just moving forward with my current best guesses.
JohnF
Advanced Member
btw.. what's wrong with Silicone II?
You are about to find out...
... Anyone have any good suggestions of the best ways to remove the layers of silicone and similar caulks in all of the roof joints?
My opinion: Silicone is a great gasket material for parts that expand/contract at the same rate. It sucks as a caulk for anything that you ever think you might have to recaulk in your lifetime. (of course, there are places where it must be used, like fishtanks.) Nothing sticks to cured silicone. Not even silicone. And this includes the imperceptible film stuck to the surface where silicone was used. You have to remove it all to effectively recaulk. I hate that job, so I hate silicone.
Use some kind of urathane or latex RV caulk. Geocell MHRV2300 is one caulk that comes up often in camper forums. What I noticed about this one is that you can recaulk it to itself. Dicor is also a name I've seen. I would consider 3M 5200 which you can get at Lowes. Apparently it is very tough.
I just redid mine. The previous owner used silicone. I may have a slanted opinion.
I used eternabond so that I won't ever have to caulk again. (2inch white)
[Oops, forgot about the removal question]
If it is silicone - I tried some sort of silicone caulk remover that I bought at Ace Hardware. It didn't improve things over the elbow grease, putty knife, scratchy pads, rags, elbow grease, and elbow grease. In the non-silicone areas it was a matter of a quick flick of a utility knife, mineral spirits wipe down and it's ready to recaulk. You could use MEK or goof-off or goo-gone here as well.
You are about to find out...
... Anyone have any good suggestions of the best ways to remove the layers of silicone and similar caulks in all of the roof joints?
My opinion: Silicone is a great gasket material for parts that expand/contract at the same rate. It sucks as a caulk for anything that you ever think you might have to recaulk in your lifetime. (of course, there are places where it must be used, like fishtanks.) Nothing sticks to cured silicone. Not even silicone. And this includes the imperceptible film stuck to the surface where silicone was used. You have to remove it all to effectively recaulk. I hate that job, so I hate silicone.
Use some kind of urathane or latex RV caulk. Geocell MHRV2300 is one caulk that comes up often in camper forums. What I noticed about this one is that you can recaulk it to itself. Dicor is also a name I've seen. I would consider 3M 5200 which you can get at Lowes. Apparently it is very tough.
I just redid mine. The previous owner used silicone. I may have a slanted opinion.
[Oops, forgot about the removal question]
If it is silicone - I tried some sort of silicone caulk remover that I bought at Ace Hardware. It didn't improve things over the elbow grease, putty knife, scratchy pads, rags, elbow grease, and elbow grease. In the non-silicone areas it was a matter of a quick flick of a utility knife, mineral spirits wipe down and it's ready to recaulk. You could use MEK or goof-off or goo-gone here as well.
pods8
Contributors
You said cracks before which made me concerned about how bad but if its just a bunch of pin holes then attempting to glue/patch them may get you some more life for a bit of labor.
Desert Rancher
Contributors
I had some small pinholes which I patched with some "flexible vinyl mender" from Ace. It has been holding up for about 5 years now, so I guess it works. These were small holes where the rivets on the lift panels rub.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&biw=1016&bih=624&q=flexible+vinyl+mender+ace&gs_upl=1493l4452l0l4951l5l5l0l4l4l0l197l197l0.1l1l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1722021062353877088&sa=X&ei=u46JTsSvCbKjsQK2i63YBQ&ved=0CDkQ8wIwAg
The Ace stuff is like somewhat like RTV, so can lay a bead over the crack or hole.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&biw=1016&bih=624&q=flexible+vinyl+mender+ace&gs_upl=1493l4452l0l4951l5l5l0l4l4l0l197l197l0.1l1l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1722021062353877088&sa=X&ei=u46JTsSvCbKjsQK2i63YBQ&ved=0CDkQ8wIwAg
The Ace stuff is like somewhat like RTV, so can lay a bead over the crack or hole.
This stuff seems like a good option for me..?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RNY72M/ref=ox_ya_os_product
In reading the reviews .. if it is strong enough to seal up the side of an above ground swimming pool.. one would think it could handle some pop-up vinyl. And 5 feet of it should be enough to handle all of the many cracks and holes I have to fix.
At any rate.. I just purchased a roll of it.. and I guess we'll find out how well it works in the short term in about a week.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RNY72M/ref=ox_ya_os_product
In reading the reviews .. if it is strong enough to seal up the side of an above ground swimming pool.. one would think it could handle some pop-up vinyl. And 5 feet of it should be enough to handle all of the many cracks and holes I have to fix.
At any rate.. I just purchased a roll of it.. and I guess we'll find out how well it works in the short term in about a week.
DanoT
Senior Member
I used a latex glue called Magic Mender which is very liquid to glue a patch of fabric over a small hole. After it dried i smeared Gloozit over the patch to seal it. Gloozit is a very good adhesive/sealant like Goop, but a bit more expensive and spreads a bit thinner.
JohnF
Advanced Member
This stuff seems like a good option for me..?
Cool. I would be interested in hearing about your experience with the product.
Cool. I would be interested in hearing about your experience with the product.
So far, I think I've had very good results with this product. I applied the roll I bought last weekend and for the most part it went on very well. The instructions say to clean with alcohol, allow to dry, cut appropriately sized piece from roll, round the corners, pull of backing and apply without touching the adhesive too much or at all. And frankly, the latter just isn't really possible, but I did get almost all of them on pretty smoothly without handling too much. I had two failures where I had to give up, throw them away and try again. And there is one that is stuck over some threads that has a little finger wide flap that isn't sticking at the bottom where I handled it too much.
The instructions also stated that they stick at 50% strength until 24 hours go by or by speeding up the process by "carefully" applying a hot air gun. I needed to put the top down and drive the next morning (16 hours later) so I dug up this old dingy hair dryer that was found at an apartment I rented many many years ago and decided to speed up the process a bit and still let the thing sit open until the next morning. The instructions warn against over-heating the patches, but I think if you're able to dry your hair without setting your head on fire you shouldn't have any problems. After giving my girlfriend a ride to work the next morning I opened it up and the patches are looking very solid. Most of them are in the corners that get folded a lot and the patches look to have conformed to same folds that the canvas were already conformed to. Even in the tricky top and bottom corners. You can't even see the patches from several feet back.
I did discover that I am going to need way more of this patch material than I had thought. The one roll took care of the left side of the camper, but the other side and the front/middle is way worse so I will be buying two more rolls and finishing the job later this month.
If I have problems or criticisms down the road I will be sure to come back and mention them here.
Here are the photos, some are of the repairs and others are of repairs that still need to be made: http://derekparr.com/stuff
One question... In regards to that space where the corner is pulled out a bit in image "20111009_001.jpg" I'm thinking of just squirting a little silicon up in there. It probably isn't important since it is under the roof over hang.. but heh. why not? (seriously, why not? is there something I'm missing?)
The instructions also stated that they stick at 50% strength until 24 hours go by or by speeding up the process by "carefully" applying a hot air gun. I needed to put the top down and drive the next morning (16 hours later) so I dug up this old dingy hair dryer that was found at an apartment I rented many many years ago and decided to speed up the process a bit and still let the thing sit open until the next morning. The instructions warn against over-heating the patches, but I think if you're able to dry your hair without setting your head on fire you shouldn't have any problems. After giving my girlfriend a ride to work the next morning I opened it up and the patches are looking very solid. Most of them are in the corners that get folded a lot and the patches look to have conformed to same folds that the canvas were already conformed to. Even in the tricky top and bottom corners. You can't even see the patches from several feet back.
I did discover that I am going to need way more of this patch material than I had thought. The one roll took care of the left side of the camper, but the other side and the front/middle is way worse so I will be buying two more rolls and finishing the job later this month.
If I have problems or criticisms down the road I will be sure to come back and mention them here.
Here are the photos, some are of the repairs and others are of repairs that still need to be made: http://derekparr.com/stuff
One question... In regards to that space where the corner is pulled out a bit in image "20111009_001.jpg" I'm thinking of just squirting a little silicon up in there. It probably isn't important since it is under the roof over hang.. but heh. why not? (seriously, why not? is there something I'm missing?)
fourwheeltom
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2007
- Messages
- 19
Hi to all,
John F was right about the vinyl repair kit idea. The fabric used in the Four Wheel pop-up "liner" is a vinyl coated polyester fabric. The base fabric (scrim) is polyester, because it has excellent compression/extension resistance. Best quality fabric uses a vinyl coating, not lamination, because the molten vinyl is rolled into the scrim, giving better adhesion, resistance to delamination, and wear resistance. This is the fabric we use here. Laminated fabric is available, too, but at a cheaper price, and I know there are companies out there using the lower quality material. As far as fixing pinholes, use the little repair kit John F mentioned... effective and easy to use. For larger repairs, small patches can be applied with the same "cement" but be sure to be careful about letting the cement set up before folding the roof back down. On the real old campers, the vinyl may be stiff and crackly, but it might be worth a try. We use 303 as a protectant and moisturizer for the vinyl, and this may help with the stiffness, but not sure how it will react with the cement. Do NOT use Armor-All or like products as they dry out the fabric and make it stiff. BTW... don't use Windex on the clear window panels... the ammoniated solution dries out vinyl, too. Hope this helps... Tom
John F was right about the vinyl repair kit idea. The fabric used in the Four Wheel pop-up "liner" is a vinyl coated polyester fabric. The base fabric (scrim) is polyester, because it has excellent compression/extension resistance. Best quality fabric uses a vinyl coating, not lamination, because the molten vinyl is rolled into the scrim, giving better adhesion, resistance to delamination, and wear resistance. This is the fabric we use here. Laminated fabric is available, too, but at a cheaper price, and I know there are companies out there using the lower quality material. As far as fixing pinholes, use the little repair kit John F mentioned... effective and easy to use. For larger repairs, small patches can be applied with the same "cement" but be sure to be careful about letting the cement set up before folding the roof back down. On the real old campers, the vinyl may be stiff and crackly, but it might be worth a try. We use 303 as a protectant and moisturizer for the vinyl, and this may help with the stiffness, but not sure how it will react with the cement. Do NOT use Armor-All or like products as they dry out the fabric and make it stiff. BTW... don't use Windex on the clear window panels... the ammoniated solution dries out vinyl, too. Hope this helps... Tom
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