1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton

**I decided to add a few more comments in my original post here as you can see that this thread has gotten a lot of attention. It is a divisive issue. But there is sound advice and good information to be gathered if you look beyond the emotional reactions. As I state below please feel free to PM me if I can help with your research on this issue. Hopefully this thread will be easily found in the future for someone who is searching for answers on this issue.**

This thread may create a stir and I want to preface it by saying that I am sharing this strictly to give information from my experience. Perhaps there are others out there in the same situation I was in and are looking for some advice. This is not a rant, I just want to help. Some of it is my opinion and other parts are facts. I did some research ahead before making these decisions but the information was not really easy to piece together and thus I got myself into a bind. Here goes...

If you are buying a Hawk camper (or any for that matter) and it has a lot of the premium options AND you have or are considering a 1/2 ton truck then you need to be aware of the weight and possibly consider a truck with heavier payload capacity. There are many configurations of these campers (and trucks) so you will have to defer to your specific camper and truck combo. But one thing is pretty ubiquitous with 1/2 ton 4x4 trucks and that is payload capacity averages from 1300 to 1800lbs (+ or - depending on your truck)

So here are the FACTS

I had the following:

2015 Tundra Double Cab Limited TRD 4x4 with 5.7L FFV engine - Payload capacity is 1595lbs - GVWR is 7100lbs

I added these accessories:
3 inch leveling kit
18inch alloy wheels with 275 70 R18 E rated tires
Amp research power steps
TRD dual exhaust
Firestone Ride rite airbags with onboard compressor

This is a damn beautiful truck! But here is the kicker which unfortunately I did not completely consider ahead of time - Anything you add to the vehicle adds weight. Total payload includes all of these things PLUS the people in the vehicle and anything you are carrying. The accessories above added around 275lbs.

Factor this in and Payload is now at 1320lbs (1595 - 275)

My 2014 Hawk weighs in DRY at 1257lbs - I know this because I called FWC and asked. They weigh each unit before it is delivered so if you call and give them your serial number they can tell you the weight.

It is configured with the following in addition to standard items:
Camper Jacks
80 Liter fridge
Hot water and shower package
Side Dinette
Power roof fan
Solar system - single panel
2nd battery

Fill the 20 gal water tank and you add 166lbs (1 gal = 8.3lbs)

So with a full water tank and before I put anything else in the camper the weight is 1423lbs. I am now 100lbs overweight BEFORE myself, gear, girlfriend, dog etc is loaded up.

2 weeks ago I was on my first roadtrip with this camper and truck and I weighed in on a certified scale at 7600lbs (500 overweight) This was with the girl, dog, climbing gear, and food. No water. Jacks removed.

**Another thought I had after this thread took off was looking at the numbers in a different way. Consider this: 500lbs overweight as stated above is 33% over Payload Capacity of this truck. If really loaded for a long trip with water, gear, etc then I would be well over 50%. 500lbs or whatever may not sound like so much but when you consider the percentage values to me that seems far more eye opening.**

With this weight the truck could not maintain speed on the highway above 68ish without straining the engine. Now perhaps you should not drive much faster than that with a load but that is for you to decide. The truck suspension actually handles the weight pretty well which I was happy about. However the performance is lousy. Riding into a headwind I felt like I was pushing the engine way too hard just to keep speed around 65. This is where we get into the gray areas of fact vs opinion and your driving preferences so I wont go any farther into that.

Now really pack for a serious trip with all your gear, supplies, and people and you can start to get very heavy.

Another FACT - helper springs and airbags DO NOT INCREASE payload. They simply help the suspension carry a heavier load than it is designed for normal use.

I have read articles that suggest if you are driving overweight and are involved in an accident you can be held liable even if it is not your fault. I am still searching to know if this is in fact true. Certainly seems logical.

** I spoke to my insurance agency and it seems that in my state of WY that I would still be covered in an incident even if I was overweight. This is only in regards to my auto policy and specific to WY. It sounds like it is a state issue and regardless of the customer service agent's response at Progressive insurance I still dont feel good about operating over the specs. If something really goes wrong and the lawyers get involved you can be certain they will use any info that would help argue their client's case.**

**I also think wear and tear should be considered. If you are constantly running your vehicle at or beyond the capabilities at which it was designed it seems reasonable to suggest that you will cause premature wear resulting in higher maintenance costs. I drove my 2002 Tundra for 13 years and I plan to drive my new Dodge at least that long (assuming it will last! its my first Dodge)**

Now my thoughts...

I am not bashing Toyota or 1/2 ton trucks. And I am only commenting on this truck, perhaps other brands would perform better with such a load. I really loved that truck and I bought it with the intention of using it with my camper and the expectation of great performance. To rewind a bit I used to have a 2002 Tundra and a 2006 model Hawk. It was lighter but looking back I was certainly overweight then, I just didnt realize it. Payload of that truck was around 1300lbs. I was really happy overall which is why I decided to get a new Tundra. About the same time I happened into a deal I couldnt refuse on the 2014 Hawk. Turns out it weighs slightly more than the 2006. During this process I did ask around about the Hawk Tundra combo as I was actually considering a 3/4 ton diesel. The person who I purchased the camper from swore by his 2014 Tundra as well as several people on this forum with the same combo. So with that in mind I decided on the Tundra. And I pretty quickly felt that I made a mistake. Some of that has to do with my personal feelings about the truck but primarily it has to do with the weight factor. There could be several different things to address which might improve the performance including not having the accessories I added and keeping the load as trimmed down as possible when packing for a trip. But the fact remains that there is only so much room for error when it comes to the payload of your vehicle. I am a little disappointed that FWC isnt as forthcoming with the weight issue and that is likely b/c the primary truck market is 1/2 ton trucks. Technically this camper does not exceed that weight so it is not any fault of theirs and I imagine they would advise you accordingly if you were ordering a camper. Since I bought mine from a private seller I can not comment on how FWC handles this. This information is available but you do have to dig for it and want to know it. I can only imagine how many people with truck campers are running dangerously overweight. If you are a weekend warrior and do light travel then perhaps this article is irrelevant. You can certainly get away with driving a slightly overloaded vehicle if you are careful. But I use my camper frequently for long trips with lots of gear and it turns out I need a truck with more payload capacity and a bigger engine to handle it. So with that I have decided to upgrade to a RAM 2500. Unfortunately this is a costly mistake as I have lost some value in the new Tundra but in the long run I think it is the right decision for me. I am sure people will have a lot to say and I think that is a good thing. I wish this thread had been written a couple of months ago when I was beginning this process. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me and I will gladly share any info from this if it will help you make a good decision for your needs. I will also do a follow up once I have had some time with the new setup. My advice is to look real hard at the specs and consider all the factors to make an educated decision so you wont find yourself in my situation. I hope this will be helpful to someone else.

Cheers...

Trgphoto, that all sounds like a fairly common experience so don't feel bad. I'll bet most half-ton truck campers are technically overloaded by at least the amount of your rig. Other than the sluggish performance and poor fuel economy I think the truck can handle it. Depending on your luck and the dealer, warranty might be an issue from overloading if they could prove it. I have not seen any evidence that accident liability or insurance claims would be a problem, though.

The whole business of GVWR is a gray area and you really have to rely on research, experience, intended use and comfort level. With most trucks if you have a balanced load and keep within the GAWR (8150 combined for the Tundra, I think) it will be fine. Ford and Chevy have HD half-ton versions with bigger axles which would help a little, although a 2500 or 3500 is certainly better suited to carry a premium truck camper.

For many owners the choice depends on whether the truck does double-duty as a daily driver with the camper off. For commuting an unloaded half-ton offers a smoother ride and better economy.

Thanks for commenting. I'm curious to know the weight you are carrying. I had a real hard time at speeds above 70. I just feel it is pushing the truck too hard for my purposes when that loaded down. I would also guess that over time exceeding the payload will cause premature wear. Hard to know for sure I guess.

I've a 06 Taco 4.0 V6 with TRD super charger carrying a ATC Bobcat. I weighted my setup full loaded at a scale it's about 6500 lbs. I feel with the TRD super charger the Taco is just derivable. But I've see people with 2.7 I4 Taco carry a camper. I think everyone is different on how they feel comfortable driving. For me if I can do it all over again, I'll get a 3/4 ton diesel for sure.

I have no choice at the moment as I cannot afford to purchase another truck. I will have to make do with what I have and pray nothing goes awry. This next big trip will determine that.

May folks get very confused about PAYLOAD numbers.

Most manufacturers publish PAYLOAD certification for their no frills, base truck. Generally, 2WD, standard cab, entry level engine. For every change in configuration (extended cab, crew cab, LWB, etc) or upgrade, there is a weight decrimate to payload for THAT truck.

Max GVWR is a legal, Federal DOT and all 50 states DOT certification. Legally, you can not exceed Max GVWR and operate your vehicle on public highways. Doing so, with near certainty, excludes all provisions of your automobile insurance policy since you are operating your vehicle beyond manufacturer's weight certifaction. Further, all 50 states have rules and regualtions prohibiting the operating of over-weight vehicles on public roads and highways without special permits.

Some states offer a process for recertification if you upgrade the brakes, suspension and other mandated components and only after completing an independent engineering analysis; not an inexpensive proposition.

Trgphoto,

I think this topic is very important and I have struggled with the weight issue..... yea my personal GVW is a little over also...lol
I love Toyotas and have had 3. I am driving a Solara I've had for 9 years. I wanted to go Tundra but could not seem to get the payload I felt I would need. I am looking at Ford F150. They have options for a payload package that will get you over 2000 lbs with a 2014 and over 2600 lbs with the 2015 and the aluminum body/bed. These figures are much better and doable for me as I will not have lots of people and will not carry tons of water. I am planning on a shell which I can upgrade myself, watching the weight I add.
I don't think a hundred pounds over is any problem but I have read folks running 400 or more over. I think they are risking a major failure and I am hoping I'm not the one involved.

When we take these risks we do not just endanger ourselves but those we share the road with. I'm sure the GVW has a cushion built into it but it was defined for a reason and as I am not a structural engineer or even a gearhead I do not feel qualified to determine what amount of overweight is safe.

The main problem is well defined in your post, many folks have never had to deal with this before and don't know what they are getting into. I know I was terribly confused at first but after following the vast amount of info on this site and learning from the experiences of others I am hoping to get a rig that is well under GVW. We'll see if I stay out of the trap

I hope you find a truck that works for you and I am sure there will be a newbie that will read this and many other good posts and avoid some of the mistakes we all make.

I'm sure I have many left in my travels but I will try to make new ones not repeat the ones I've been warned about

This is exactly the conversation I hoped to get going. Thank you all for commenting. I want to share a few more things I learned this morning and I will continue to update as I get more info. First of all I sympathize with anyone who already has a truck and isnt in the position to just run out and upgrade. I drove my 2002 Tundra for 13 years and absolutely loved it. I had the 2006 Hawk on it for 2 years and added airbags. I did feel it was straining the truck but I just accepted it. Fortunately I never had an incident. This January I decided it was time to upgrade and I ignored my gut feeling and stuck with Toyota. And here we are...

To make a point on GVWR - There is no grey area when it comes to this. Its actually in bright yellow on the sticker on the driver side door panel. It says clearly that you should not exceed this number. GAWR is not meant to be combined. You can debate this all you want and unfortunately the rationale that this is somehow a grey area is what contributed to my decision which I now regret. Maybe a hundred lbs or so is fine but I am exceeding that by much more so it is not ok for me.

I also just contacted my insurance people. I use Progressive. It does seem that for a vehicle being used for personal use or pleasure will in fact not be held to exact numbers of GVWR in Wyoming. This is according to my state law but it may be different in other states. I am attaching a screenshot of the chat here so you can see exactly how the agent replied to my question. This does not definitively conclude that I am ok but it certainly suggests that we would have some leeway when it comes to operating overweight. So do research and decide what you think is ok.



I am also attaching a photo of the weight badge that is attached to the back of my camper. This highlights my suggestion that FWC is not being forthcoming on this issue. I am no grammar expert but to me this badge clearly reads that the weight of the camper is 875lbs with 20 gal of water, 20 lbs or propane, and the fridge. It does say to consult weight sheet for additional accessories. But still it is misleading. My camper weighs 1257 lbs according to the lady I spoke with at FWC. Even when I asked her directly about the weight I got a shaky answer on whether the 1257 was DRY or WET. She told me WET but the math from my trip to the scales just doesnt support that. Why can't they just put the actual weight on this badge? Its really frustrating.



I hope this conversation continues in a well informed manner. I am reaching out to different people on this issue and will report back on what I find. Again my intention here is to try and help someone who might be in the position I was in. At the end of the day the only way to really know for sure about your vehicle/camper combo is to go out and try it in the real world. This may be difficult to do when trying to purchase a vehicle but in hindsight I wish I had tried.

The way I read the FWC sticker is that the weight stated includes 20 gal of water (160Lbs) a 20 lb propane tank and the fridge or ice box. The weight stated however is what I thought the dry weight of the camper was so I am confused. It is vital that the customer have the true weight of the camper _as built_ so they can decide accordingly. I would hope in the paperwork there would be a breakdown of the camper with options and weights with a conclusive total......

So, here are a couple more pennies worth from a 3/4 ton perspective. First let me say that FWC was very forthright re weight when I made my purchase. My calculations too indicated borderline for a half ton. My Loaded hawk was also going to live on my truck. If it was not I would have gone 1/2 ton for comfort and mileage when unloaded.

I have spent a good deal of time around marine diesels and a deisel fan. I decided on an f-250 4x4 Powerstroke 6.7L. Even with the 3/4T the rear springs were compressed almost a couple of inches so I ended up putting SuperSprings on it and adjusted them for the asymmetrical load. They leveled it up and also eliminated most of the sway.

The 6.7L diesel is clearly overkill even when towing my boat. If left in cruise control at 65mph I have yet to find a grade in the western US or BC Canada that it downshifts going up hill. It only downshifts downhill and maintains downhill speeds well. If I need to slow down for another vehicle and accelerate on a grade it is a different story. I wish Ford made a smaller diesel for our type of application and improved fuel mileage. BTW, I get 16.2 average overall mileage pulling boat 5% and camper loaded 99.5% of time.

I talk to many Tundra users on the road who are happy campers. While weight is more critical with a half ton that is clearly what these campers are designed for. If that is your goal then carefully calculate the sum total of options gear and people. Know that when an engine is loaded up working fuel mileage drops considerably. In my opinion stopping is just as much if not more an issue than getting up to speed.

I absolutely find no fault or sinister underpinnings wih how FWC conducts their business. They assisted me with absolute detail on this subject.

Thanks for sharing Kispiox

I do not want to make a malicious statement against FWC as I am sure they are very helpful when working directly with their clients. I bought both my campers from private sellers so I did not have the benefit of working with them directly. I do however feel that the way they post the weight information is misleading and results in many people making a less than informed decision about weight.

If anyone has any concerns about their camper then call FWC and give them your serial number and see if they have your specs on file. They may not have them unless you have a later model. Then the next step would be to find scales in your area and investigate for yourself.

I love my Hawk camper and will be a loyal FWC user for many years to come. I just feel I need to upgrade to a better truck to support my needs.

If you are having a problem pulling the weight then a diesel is the way to go.(buy one, you will not regret it) I have an 06 Dodge 5.9 cummins and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I think I would be more concerned with the braking of a 1/2 ton more than the weight in the back. My 3/4 ton has hauled some serious loads over the years with no trailer brakes and it has always done really well, but I am willing to bet that the brakes are a lot burlier than a 1/2 ton.

trgphoto said:

Thanks for sharing Kispiox

I do not want to make a malicious statement against FWC as I am sure they are very helpful when working directly with their clients. I bought both my campers from private sellers so I did not have the benefit of working with them directly. I do however feel that the way they post the weight information is misleading and results in many people making a less than informed decision about weight.

If anyone has any concerns about their camper then call FWC and give them your serial number and see if they have your specs on file. They may not have them unless you have a later model. Then the next step would be to find scales in your area and investigate for yourself.

I love my Hawk camper and will be a loyal FWC user for many years to come. I just feel I need to upgrade to a better truck to support my needs.

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When I purchased my Hawk I believe there was a total dry weight certificate of my specific camper with all options prior to installation. Each unit is weighed prior to delivery. I am also all but certain in this over-regulated world of ours their weight plackard on the unit is subject to and in compliance with governing laws.

Vento said:

If you are having a problem pulling the weight then a diesel is the way to go.(buy one, you will not regret it) I am willing to bet that the brakes are a lot burlier than a 1/2 ton.

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Without question and handling sway if on a curve when braking. That said, if the 1/2T is not overloaded it too is in spec. My preference is to be well within spec. But again, My camper lives there. I may approach it differently if most of the time unloaded and no other use justifying the 3/4T. Unloaded, I'd much prefer the ride of a 1/2 ton. Loaded on the highway its a smooth ride and the quiet diesel not reving and hunting for gears is more like being in a Cady. But you have to put a lot of miles on it to justify the additional cost.

FWC puts the measured as-manufactured weight on your paperwork when you get your camper. As my camper was delivered with no water or propane, it must be the dry weight.

The mfg plaque is misleading as it does not include as manufactured options in the stated weight. Additionally, your's shows 20 gallons of water but you have hot water so you need to add the additional 6 gallons that the water heater holds.

I think we stress over this issue more than other sites because much of the site is about pop-up campers on smaller trucks so we can camp in our desired remote locations. Truck Camper Magazine has additional info on camper weights in their Buyer's Guide. Click the mfg of your choice and read the disclaimers. Their Newbie Corner discusses matching trucks and campers.

Paul

The best way to get an accurate weigh measure is go to a recycle/dump facility with ground scale and drive your truck on it. That's how I got the weight of my setup. I also have the number for front/rear axle weight.

FWC weights are easily accessible including the weight of each and every option.

If you feel misled, misinformed or under informed perhaps you should contact FWC for clarification.
FWCs website requests that you contact them regarding any questions about your truck/camper combination.

I knew exactly what I was getting into when I purchased my Hawk, which lives comfortably and within the payload limit on my GMC 1/2 ton. I knew I was the one accountable for my decision, so I did my homework. I did add Firestone Ride-rite air bags, but I was prepared for that. FWCs website indicates that some trucks may need suspension upgrades.

KILR0Y said:

Trgphoto, on my way into work this morning (camper on) I cruised easily at 68mph and with tow/haul mode selected at 2100 rpm's on the tach. Yes, the pedal is depressed slightly more than with an empty truck thus pumping more fuel/air into the cylinders, but the truck surely isn't being overworked like you seen to imply above, at least not in my opinion. This is all relative based on experience with this type of mechanical stuff though. You want to see something get worked, try owning a 38' class A 20,000lb motorhome with Ford Triton V10 motor at highway speeds. That thing gets a workout...
Two things come to mind after reviewing this thread a bit more. One, you should consider how much other equipment on our roads and highways are being worked as there are hundreds of overweight RV's out there much more severe than ours (reference above example). Second, I'd highly encourage you to get the Cummins diesel engine in the 3/4 ton pickup as it's runs barely above idle while hauling a Hawk. Be aware of the additional costs associated with this setup though.
For me, I'll stick with the gasser because in reality I'm barely giving it a workout even hauling my camper at highway speeds. Plus, the camper only gets used about 20% of total vehicle use time like stated above, so I like the 1/2 ton option. I hope this helps inform you more. I was curious about how much RV'ing experience you have?
Sent from my SM-G900P using Wander The West mobile app

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Kilroy,

No truer words spoken... At 10k more for the motor you need to drive a whole bunch of miles to pay for it on the delta in mileage. Ram has a new half ton with a smaller blueTec diesel that will probably do 20 to 25mpg loaded with a Hawk. If setting up anew, I'd have to give that serious thought. There are a bunch of other trade offs, such as service life,etc. etc. I just filled up for the first time in my life with diesel priced .25 cents below regular but that anomaly probably won't last long. I guess there is presently a Diesel glut due to decreased retail demand in Europe where 80 percent of personal transports are diesel. If that doesn't change they'll tax it more...

trgphoto said:

To make a point on GVWR - There is no grey area when it comes to this. Its actually in bright yellow on the sticker on the driver side door panel. It says clearly that you should not exceed this number. GAWR is not meant to be combined. You can debate this all you want and unfortunately the rationale that this is somehow a grey area is what contributed to my decision which I now regret. Maybe a hundred lbs or so is fine but I am exceeding that by much more so it is not ok for me.

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Let me clarify my perspective on GVWR and why I say it is a gray area. The truck manufacturer determines a GVWR for a particular model based on many factors and tradeoffs which they do not publish. Tow ratings at least have an adopted procedure so we can compare brands and models, but payload does not. It is difficult to compare brands because of inconsistent and contradictory ratings.

What information I could find indicates that GVWR comes from engineering, marketing, legal and regulatory concerns. Engineering tries to meet goals such as performance, ride, handling, cargo, towing, cooling, durability, fuel economy, emissions and cost. Materials, construction and weight rating are chosen for reasons that may be secondary to us. As an example of how absurd it can get, some half-ton, crew cab pickups have such a low GVWR that their rated payload is barely adequate to carry the driver and the rated number of passengers--nothing left for cargo!

The weight label applied at the factory is little more than a snapshot of how the truck was built. One person likened it to the label on a mattress. It is rare for anyone to look at the label or to care if it is missing (as it could be after the truck has body work or is painted). Some states have weight-based registration fees, but neither law enforcement nor insurance care about the GVWR on a private pickup. It is legal to run your truck and camper above the truck's GVWR.

In the end GVWR is a guideline that we can use as one point of reference in choosing the best rig for our needs and budget. There are many choices and different approaches. I've seen purposely-built rigs I would not hesitate to drive that were carrying twice their rated payload, although for my purposes I chose a 2500 because it works well completely stock. Still, I don't put a lot of weight into its GVWR.

Bigfoot said:

The weight label applied at the factory is little more than a snapshot of how the truck was built. One person likened it to the label on a mattress. It is rare for anyone to look at the label or to care if it is missing (as it could be after the truck has body work or is painted). Some states have weight-based registration fees, but neither law enforcement nor insurance care about the GVWR on a private pickup. It is legal to run your truck and camper above the truck's GVWR.

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First...
Agreed, the label is based on THE truck the manufacturer uses for Federal DOT and NHTSA certification. The manufacturer then publishes the weight of any added option, upgrade and/or feature. The label on the driver door jam (reguired by federal regulation) is a legal placard for THAT truck given the build out on the manufacturers certifacte of orgin. The certifiacte of orgin is delivered with the vehicle from the assembly plant to the dealer and is a federally reguired, legal document.

Second. The placard on the door jam is a NHTSA mandated placard. It is NOT the same as the tag on a pillow! Not even close! Some states which require annual safety inspections, require the inspector to annotate the placard's prescence.

All 50 states and D.C. prohibit the operation of vehicles on public highways which exceed the vehicle's placarded weight. Speacial use, over-weight permits are available in some states.

The liklihood of being randomly inspected for over-weight status is very remote. However, if you are involved in an accident, the weight of the vehicle will be closely scruninized if there is any question in the mind of the investigator. The vehicle's placarded GVWR is used in all enforcement actions. If it is determined you operated your vehicle over-weight, civil and possible criminal penalties (if a person is injured) are a real possibility.

The GVWR placard is not simply advisory information and that which you may discount or choose to disregard as an inconvenience.

While GVWR is generally a discussion most likely found involving commerical vehicles, it is also pertient to 1/2 ton pcikups and other vehicles usually classified under 10,000 pounds.

GVWR is not a legal "gray" area and a subject every pickup/slide-in camper driver should be keenly aware IMO.