1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton

[PJorgen]

So here’s my 3/4 ton story. Last year my wife and I decided we wanted a FWC camper and are fortunate enough to live less than an hour’s drive from the FWC factory in Woodland. We also didn’t own a truck at the time so we had the luxury of matching the truck to the camper.

We looked at the various models and decided that a Hawk with a few options (furnace, hot water, small 3-way frig) was what we wanted. I asked the sales guy Steve about trucks. He mentioned that I could get by with a half-ton truck but would probably need helper springs and/or air bags. They even had some springs and air bags on display with the campers.

I’m a belt and suspenders, better safe than sorry kinda guy, so “get by” and “helper springs” were huge red flags to me. I decided right then to go with a 3/4 ton truck. I found a 2012 GMC 2500HD with 6.0L V8 gasser at good price and jumped on it.

We had the camper installed on December 31st and have taken it on four trips so far. Drove some windy roads on the Sonoma coast last weekend and I’m very happy with the handling and performance.

So the numbers: the GVWR of the truck is 9500 lbs. I had it weighed before the camper install with just me and a full tank of gas, it came in at 6340 lbs so I had over 3000 lbs of payload to play with. Had it weighed as we left on our first trip with full tanks of gas, propane and water, food, gear, ice chests and all the other usual stuff, along with my wife and me. 8680 lbs! Still under the GVWR but a lot more than I would have guessed.

The paperwork I rec’d with the camper shows an empty weight of 1224 lbs without the jacks. That means that I’m carrying over 1100 lbs of stuff in addition to the camper. I was surprised by that as I’m a pretty light packer. I think that’s where the half-ton crowd goes wrong by underestimating the weight of the other crap that we take with us.

 

[Kispiox]

My 2011 f-250 6.7L Diesel Lariat Crew Cab is rated 10,000 GVWR according to the door jamb plackard. The front axel GVWR is 5,940 and the rear 6,100 which equals by my math 12,040? Can someone explain why the truck is rated 10,000lbs then? I don't know what the empty weight is because when I made the decision to go 3/4T I didn't worry about splitting hairs. Now I'd like to know. A Google ought to cure that.

Some time ago I weighed it fully loaded after provisioning and wet to primarily to determine recommended tire pressures on a segmented scale. The front axel is 5,240 lbs. and the rear axell is 5,160 lbs. for a combined Gross Weight: 10,300 lbs? So I am over weight by THREE HUNDRED POUNDS overall, but within spec on the axels? Kilroy, I too hope the Plackard police don't get me! This blows my mind!

I also removed all but the rear jump seat to make room for gear, so both deleted weight but also added gear. This is all kind of interesting. I rarely travel with the corner jacks. I have no roof racks, no winch, no recovery gear, no generator, no receiver racks, no extra fuel, no custom bumpers, no wife and kids, no dog and no fire wood. Believe it or not, I don't carry a lot of stuff and when I buy something it is always the lite weight variety. The Hawk is however fully optioned but not loaded with gear. For instance REI plastic eating utensils, minimal nesting cook wear, no glass or ceramics, etc. I do tend to carry a fair amount of beer but that isn't going to change. IN FACT IM GOING TO HAVE ONE NOW!

If anyone cand shed light on the axel vs total GVWR I'd be interested.....

 

[Squatch]

One thing I saw in the OP is kind of a pet peeve of mine. A leveling kit. Quite fashionable in these days of expensive to lift trucks. From the factory most trucks sit a little stern high so that they sit level when loaded. Leveling kits are a quick fix to raise the front to get larger tires on an "unloaded" truck. When added the truck sits level without a load. Often they now squat badly with a load. Around here I rarely see one that has had the headlights adjusted to compensate for this. So they blind other drivers. It just snowballs when you load a truck with a leveling kit. Next comes the airbags to get it back where it should be. I'm just throwing out some info and opinion. Not putting you down. I don't really have a problem with leveling kits on a truck that sees very light duty and rarely hauls a load. But if you are heavy hauling to me they seem a step in the wrong direction.

If your tires fit without it maybe the 1st step might be to remove the leveling kit. Let the rear down a tad with the bags and see if it's any better. I've owned and built a few lifted trucks. Big and small. Just a mild lift and bigger tires often has drastic meaningful effects on aerodynamics. These camper do as well. Going much bigger on tires without regearing the axles also really saps the power. Might be worth trying before you dump your truck for a new one. I would think it's a cheap trial compared to a new truck. I hope you find a solution that works well for you.

 

[Espresso]

Enter a curve just a little too fast, particularly when going downhill, and respond by hitting the brakes just a little too hard and you will immediately and completely understand the danger in carrying 1600 lbs in a 1/2 ton truck. Make it a Grandby in a short-bed and the situation could be much more dire. I did this on Hwy 89 heading towards Sierraville and it scared the crap out of me. Many who have traveled this road may be familiar with the curve. It is why I sold my Grandby and plan to replace it with a Hawk, but not a loaded Hawk.

One of the problems with buying all the "right" gear is, but the time you purchase the truck and the camper (assuming new), you've invested $50k - $70k. I know FWC is a lifestyle purchase, but for that kind of lettuce, I'm looking at all my options including a motorhome.

 

[Ramblinman]

Those of us with 1/2 Tons really need to slow down. I cannot justify trading my 1/2 ton for a 3/4 ton - as I would be just throwing away money. This said I will drive appropriately to conditions and consider the trucks limitations.

Sorry trgphoto this topic has been covered extensively on this forum and others.

FWC cannot be held liable - camper weights are readily available.

At some point the buyer needs to be accountable.

My suggestion - pack lighter - and slow down - you will be fine.

BTW my next truck will be a 1 Ton

 

[enelson]

Thanks for commenting. I'm curious to know the weight you are carrying. I had a real hard time at speeds above 70. I just feel it is pushing the truck too hard for my purposes when that loaded down. I would also guess that over time exceeding the payload will cause premature wear. Hard to know for sure I guess.

I'm surprised you don't have plenty of power. My Hallmark/Tundra combo is overweight about the same or a bit more than your setup. I can still fly up mountain passes here in Colorado. I love to leave Subarus in the dust with the camper on. The peak torque is at 3600 rpm and I can usually keep it on the torque curve. The engine can be pushed harder though. Absolutely the best thing I bought for the Tundra with the camper is a TRD rear sway bar. If you still have the stock height in the rear end then order one and install it! If you've raised the rear end then contact David Ekstrom at Ekstrom Designs in SLC about how to fit one.

 

[enelson]

I also have OME springs and suspension front/rear. On the rear I have added the OME add a leaf on top of the Dakar pack. I have Ekstrom designs +3 shackles too. With E load rated tires, the suspension, and the sway bar the load is very stable. The truck is still rear end high with the camper, weekend gear, but empty water tank. Yes, I slow down a bit but not that much.

 

[Bigfoot]

First...
Agreed, the label is based on THE truck the manufacturer uses for Federal DOT and NHTSA certification. The manufacturer then publishes the weight of any added option, upgrade and/or feature. The label on the driver door jam (reguired by federal regulation) is a legal placard for THAT truck given the build out on the manufacturers certifacte of orgin. The certifiacte of orgin is delivered with the vehicle from the assembly plant to the dealer and is a federally reguired, legal document.

Second. The placard on the door jam is a NHTSA mandated placard. It is NOT the same as the tag on a pillow! Not even close! Some states which require annual safety inspections, require the inspector to annotate the placard's prescence.

All 50 states and D.C. prohibit the operation of vehicles on public highways which exceed the vehicle's placarded weight. Speacial use, over-weight permits are available in some states.

The liklihood of being randomly inspected for over-weight status is very remote. However, if you are involved in an accident, the weight of the vehicle will be closely scruninized if there is any question in the mind of the investigator. The vehicle's placarded GVWR is used in all enforcement actions. If it is determined you operated your vehicle over-weight, civil and possible criminal penalties (if a person is injured) are a real possibility.

The GVWR placard is not simply advisory information and that which you may discount or choose to disregard as an inconvenience.

While GVWR is generally a discussion most likely found involving commerical vehicles, it is also pertient to 1/2 ton pcikups and other vehicles usually classified under 10,000 pounds.

GVWR is not a legal "gray" area and a subject every pickup/slide-in camper driver should be keenly aware IMO.

I respectfully disagree with most of what you said based on my own research and talking with people in the industry and agencies. I am quite familiar with my own state's vehicle statues and there is no mention of "placarded weight." If you have any relevant examples of recreational owners being legally challenged because of exceeding GVWR, I'd like to hear them.

 

[idahoron]

trgphoto, although it's been covered quite well already in other posts, I'll add my thoughts to this new thread of yours.

I did just returned with my fully loaded Hawk and family of 3 adults (18yo son graduating this summer) from the South Rim of the Grand Canyon. Plenty of head winds on the trek and drove comfortably at 75 mph, at times with another FWC who I joined up with along the way near Hawthorne, NV. We both stepped up the speed on the flats and drove comfortably at 70-75 (80 passing truckers) with no issues other than burning quite a bit more fossil fuels. I think I dropped down from 16 MPG empty to 12.8 MPG with the camper on. The 5.7l motor handles the truck quite well, and I'm impressed with it overall. Put 'er in 5th gear and tow mode and then ease your foot down to whatever speed you desire. Works well for me, but sounds like you'd be more comfortable with a 3/4 ton pickup. Just my .02 worth - sorry to hear you're let down though, a guy's got to be comfortable with his gear out there.

I have the smaller engine of the 2005. Mine is a 4.7 I think. My experiences are much the same as yours. If I am towing my trailer and we have strong wind I slow down because I worry about wind effect on my gear. Like you, I feel very comfortable with my weight and power.

 

[Bad Habit]

My 2011 f-250 6.7L Diesel Lariat Crew Cab is rated 10,000 GVWR according to the door jamb plackard. The front axel GVWR is 5,940 and the rear 6,100 which equals by my math 12,040? Can someone explain why the truck is rated 10,000lbs then? I don't know what the empty weight is because when I made the decision to go 3/4T I didn't worry about splitting hairs. Now I'd like to know. A Google ought to cure that.

Some time ago I weighed it fully loaded after provisioning and wet to primarily to determine recommended tire pressures on a segmented scale. The front axel is 5,240 lbs. and the rear axell is 5,160 lbs. for a combined Gross Weight: 10,300 lbs? So I am over weight by THREE HUNDRED POUNDS overall, but within spec on the axels? Kilroy, I too hope the Plackard police don't get me! This blows my mind!

I also removed all but the rear jump seat to make room for gear, so both deleted weight but also added gear. This is all kind of interesting. No roof racks, no winch, no recovery gear, no generator, no receiver racks, no extra fuel, no custom bumpers, no wife and kids, no dog and no fire wood. Believe it or not, I don't carry a lot of stuff and when I buy something it is always the lite weight variety. The Hawk is however fully optioned but not loaded with gear. For instance REI plastic eating utensils, minimal nesting cook wear, no glass or ceramics, etc. I do tend to carry a fair amount of beer but that isn't going to change. IN FACT IM GOING TO HAVE ONE NOW!

If anyone cand shed light on the axel vs total GVWR I'd be interested.....

Taken from another Forum, mainly about trucks:

"GAWR is static weight on the front or rear axle. GVWR is static weight on the entire truck. You can load the rear axle of the example truck to 6200 pounds, but if you did this and loaded the front axle to 5250 pounds you'd exceed the GVWR. Why?

The axle rating is just weight pressing down. The GVWR rating takes into account the ability of the truck to support AND move the load safely. The two ratings have nothing to do with each other.

You also need to consider the GCWR when factoring it all together. I've seen trucks that the GCWR isn't exceeded (truck + cargo + trailer weight), the GVWR is OK (truck plus cargo plus trailer tongue weight on entire truck) but the GAWR is exceeded (truck + cargo + trailer tongue weight on rear axle)."

another aspect of the rating not usually considered is the tires and wheels. Obviously they base it on the options chosen at time of manufacture, so if the truck came with factory wheels that look like they belong at a Klingon Bar Mitzvah, they may limit the weight rating.

Also, as many states base registration fees and taxes on GVWR, manufacturers have an option on the larger trucks to "de-rate" the GVWR to 10,000 or 9999Lbs. They may have the same or even upgrade factory axles, springs, brakes, etc. but are de-rated on paper to minimize the registration costs. This would probably be more of private party owner option than a commercial buyer.

Personally, glad I live in a State that doesn't tax the weight rating (everything else though), and enjoying my 11,500

 

[Kispiox]

THANK YOU Bad Habit!

Hard to believe I am actually technically over weight with a 3/4T carrying a lightly loaded but fully optioned Hawk. I think that I am going to drain the water tank(s) and take some gear out and then have it weighed again. Then I am going to keep the scale receipt with my papers so that I can produce it if ever in an accident.

 

[Bigfoot]

If anyone cand shed light on the axel vs total GVWR I'd be interested.....

Good questions that Bad Habit answered ably.

Like with GVWR the manufactures are quiet about exactly how they determine GAWR. The difference between GVWR and the combined axle ratings vary by manufacturer. For example, the GVWR is about 80% of the combined axle ratings for the 2014 Ram 2500 4WD Crew Cab, 88% for the Tundra, 89% for the Ram 1500, 91% for the Silverado 1500, and 99% for the F-150.

I suspect the GAWR may be a somewhat arbitrary value based on factors other than engineering. In any case a common rule-of-thumb is to keep load within the GAWR unless suspension and possibly axle upgrades are made. In some cases the basic difference between 2500 and 3500 models is the suspension, with frame and axles being the same.

 

[Advmoto18]

I respectfully disagree with most of what you said based on my own research and talking with people in the industry and agencies. I am quite familiar with my own state's vehicle statues and there is no mention of "placarded weight." If you have any relevant examples of recreational owners being legally challenged because of exceeding GVWR, I'd like to hear them.

It is good to disagree and ask for precedent and/or examples. It raises awareness.

I am not licenseed to practice law in Oregon.

Rather than cite case law, I will link a plain English brochure published by an RV club...
http://www.escapees.com/smartweigh/SWDownloads.aspx
Click on "Now that you've been weighed". Note aspect #3 paragraph.
This is a lay term, generalized brochure written by lawyers.

If one installs a slide-in camper into a pickup, it will be classified as a "recreational vehicle" or "motor home" (dependent upon jurisdiction) unless the pickup truck has been previously classified a commercial vehicle for tax and registration purposes; then commercial regualtions apply.

In Oregon, your pickup truck/slide-in camper is classified as a "motor home."
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/pages/vehicle/motorhome.aspx
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/pages/vehicle/trailer.aspx

Contact Oregon DOT for their interpretation of a "permanent" installation. Also ask DOT if ORS 818.010 applies to your "motor home". If so, Oregon over-weight calculation tables are likely to be more restrictive than the manufacturer's GVWR placard.

Placarded weight regulations are enforceable under the NHTSA. Not all states cite, manufacturer's placarded weights.

All 50 States, including Oregon, prohibit the over-weight operation of private and commecial vehicles on public highways.

And, I agree, a POV with a slide-in camper is not going to raise to the level of scruntiny as a commercial vehicle. But, if you are involved in an accident, regardless of culpability, and your pickup/camper is overweight per placard or state's formula, you will be subject to enforcment action. Case law is readily available in all 50 states regarding this matter. It is not a new legal issue.

 

[enelson]

Advmoto18, if you have access to some data regarding camper or RV owners who have actually been challenged in court due to over GVWR please share. A co-worker told me that he used to work for an accident investigation firm that would weigh the RV after an accident regardless of who was at fault. I assumed this was for one of the two insurance companies. I can't seem to find horror stories about this online though.

 

[PaulT]

When I registered my FWC at DMV in Oregon last year, I asked specifically about what was meant about permanently mounted. I was told that it was permanently mounted if bolted to the truck. Turnbuckle mounting is not permanent.

Paul

 

[Kispiox]

This is all eye opening. When I went trough my decision process I crunched numbers to the point that half ton wasn't adding up. From there I just lept to a 3/4T and started the journey. It is incredible to me to now find that while I can modify to be inside the weight restriction that I am in fact on the upper limit. One last question...

I installed a product called SuperSpings. Do such after-market modifications increase the GVWR? If a dealer did the same upgrades for say a one ton of the same model year parts would that increase the GVWR.? Why does my little voice tell me the door jamb plackard is what it is and for ever shall be? Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[PaulT]

After adding the aftermarket springs, tires, sway bars, etc., take another look at the factory sticker and see if it has changed. I'm betting on no change.

All the add-on suspension stuff is to stabilize the load, relevel the vehicle, and control the wallowing. Without the add on suspension updates, it feels like you are carrying a live load that shifts in cornering and bounces back and forth, up and down to produce that uneasy feeling. Kind of like driving an old 60's luxury car on a curvy mountain road as compared to driving a sports car on the same road.

BTW, adding a Hellwig rear sway bar was the best add-on to my Tundra even before I got my Hawk. Be aware that the suspension updates may add weight that reduces your payload. Still can't find that free lunch. Sigh.

Paul

 

[Kispiox]

So, fully optioned hawk, no corner jacks, no roof rack, back seat removed and replaced with assorted gear that probably only slightly exceeds the weight of the seat, no recovery gear, no winch, no ancillary fuel, no receiver rack, no fire wood, with SuperSprings, all tanks empty, no wife, no kids, no dog, no wife kid or dog accessories and attention paid to light weight cookwear, no groceries AND I AM PROBABLY VERY VERY CLOSE BUT ONLY SLIGHTLY UNDER THE 10,000 GVWR of my F-250. ANYTHING ELSE and a One Ton is "legally" required. Even if I wanted to go to a dealer and make the same modifications that a like year single axel F-350 one truck would have, the net increase weight of those modifications would only make me more outside the legal envelope and subject to lawsuit in the event of an injury accident.

That is a ridiculous, idiotic, dumb, over-regulated state of idiotic affairs. I find myself agitated. Aldous, where do I report for soma?

 

[DesertDave]

Most of what I know about GVWR and carrying FWC has been covered. I believe that the GVWR is often set by the weakest link in the chain of vehicle components. For example, an axle like my rear axle is rated by the axle manufacturer at 9700 lbs, but the Ford axle rating much less, probably because of the carrying capacity of the wheel or the factory-supplied tire. For all I know, the weak link in my 11,400 lb GVWR is the parking pawl in the transmission, which must hold the weight at a tested grade. I say this since I did a ton of research into the individual components prior to purchase, and this was probably the weak link in the chain.

It would be harder to get component specifications for a foreign-built vehicle, I would think.

My truck fully loaded with FWC and everything full weighs 10,320.

 

[Kispiox]

Kilroy, don't do It man! Let's report for Soma together.