1980 FWC Keystone - Getting this old beast up to par.

J

JDeanP

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Joined
Nov 22, 2017
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51
Location
El Paso, TX
Before anything else, this forum has been a treasure of information about restoring and remodeling older FWD campers. Thanks to everyone that has taken the time to upload and share their findings and progress. It's already been a tremendous help.

Some of you will have already seen this Keystone posted around, but a few didn't want to touch it, and those that did apparently didn't have the correct size bed to take it home. While browsing CL, looking for something worth a trip to Colorado from El Paso, TX, I began shooting from the hip, seeing if any of the sellers ever found themselves closer down this way where we could meet up. Low and behold, this Keystone's seller is from El Paso and wanted to visit family for Thanksgiving. We came to a mutually beneficial arrangement and he brought the camper down with him from Northern Colorado.

Not having eyes on before the purchase was a gamble. I can't say that I regret the purchase, but there were some items that were not apparent in the discussions that took place. If I was actually in Colorado, or somewhere else with a budget friendly supply of used FWCs, I probably would have passed. However, having the thing transported for me was a huge help and now I have something to keep my hands busy.

For better or worse, she's now mounted on a 96 F250, perfect fit. Already the overcab particle board was replaced so as not to invite various West Texas critters to take up abode. Next will be the replacement of the vents.

Below are a few pictures I snagged earlier in the process. My camera isn't handy for uploads at the moment, but I'll take some more pictures while I'm out there and put them up later today.

Thanks for taking a look. Feel free to follow along and throw any advice or pointers my way.





 
I had an 84 Keystone. It was bigger inside than my current 2007 Keystone. We miss that extra space.

These old campers have good bones but do take a lot of effort and time to refurbish.

My first recommendation is to clean the sealant off of all the screws in the roof and re-seal with 3M 4100. Most of the damage in my old camper was from small leaks in the canvas and the roof. However, if you have any other roof work to do such as replacing headliner, adding (or replacing) vents, or wiring for solar, light fixture or powered fan(s) I would do that before re-sealing the roof.

You may want to consider putting full length Yakima or Thule rails on the roof. They are handy for attaching solar panels and of course kayak carriers, etc. We found that the Aluminum OEM rack we had on our Keystone was not particularly useful. It was more like a rectangular luggage rack.

Hopefully the end panels in your camper are OK. If not you can build or buy. Same with the pop-top canvas.

Be sure to check the plywood floor box for degradation/rot, particularly under the entry door.

All of the cabinets as well as the cab over wood was originally pressed wood. I recommend replacing the over cab wood with 3/4" thick Marine plywood that has a piece of thin melamine (or equivalent) bonded to the side that is facing out and be sure the plywood and melamine extend well into the lip around the edge then fill the space between the lip and the melamine with 3M 4100 before putting all the screws in. Be sure to paint or seal the inside surface of the plywood as well.

I recommend two vents one forward and one aft. Think about the roof penetrations and wiring before you re-do all the sealant. If you plan to put solar on the roof then go with 10 AWG I believe that is standard on Solar panels and commercial solar wire (hopefully rando, ntsqd or Vic Harder will check and confirm or correct this comment).

I assume you have seen the recent thread on replacing the headliner as well as other threads on rebuilding the floor box of the camper.

If you replace the interior check the frame for cracks and repair and add gussets as appropriate. Depending how far you strip it down you may want to think about upgrading the insulation too (same with the roof).

We did not have hot water or a pump in the old camper. We do have it in the new camper. I was going to put in a foot pump had I kept the camper (we found the used 2007 about that time for a good price so went for it).

We had a 3-burner range top and a 3-way Instamatic fridge that still worked - barely. I do not recall the brand of the 110 V/12 V power converter that was in the old camper but I would suggest replacing it and wiring the camper a bit differently than factory so that the power goes to your house batteries and the house loads can be connected to your solar controller (I recommend Victron 100/30). I believe ntsqd has done this so may have suggestions.

If you remake the cabinets I assume you will use plywood or MDF. Think about better layout and flush fitting doors and drawers. I saw the cabinets Alley-Kat built in his first camper and they were nice. He used push button latches and flush doors and drawers on his cabinets which when closed left nothing to snag on. Nice and clean. Plus they were positive latching so they would not pop open on rough roads. Not sure if he ever posted pictures not but I am sure he would share the info.

If you replace the mattress and /or cushions recommend you see the info that David of Upholstery Decor in Goleta has posted. He has been doing upholstery and foam all his life - he started as a kid in the shop his Dad owned and now he owns it. He has done work for me and he knows this stuff like no one I have ever met before. Here is his website: http://www.foamonline.com/ Be sure to read the info at the "help center" and "mattresses" tabs on the left side of the home page. He can bond different foams together if necessary to meet your needs.

Longer term advice: Do not store the camper with the roof down and the overcab mattress in place. remove the mattress and stand it on its side in the aisle before closing the top for storage. That way even if you get condensation in the overcab area you will not get mold.

OK as usual I have gone on long. I hope some of this is useful to you. Good luck with the refurbishment of the camper.


Craig
 
Sweet lovin'. Thanks for the pointers.
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It should probably be pointed out that, due to certain circumstances, almost the entirety of this project takes place in a parking lot, with limited tools and space. Storage of materials consists of the truck cab and camper itself. It isn't ideal, but it makes things more interesting and everything is ready at hand on project days.

The overcab was replaced with 3/4' birch ply and the outside was painted before installation. This replacement, and the vents I replaced today, may not have been done to the most professional standards, but they needed to be completed sooner than later in order to keep out the elements. I'm not against going back later and making fixes to a higher standard, but I didn't want to neglect these deficiencies. This thing was pretty much a breezeway when I started.



Edges were caulked and the new overcab was synched in with new hardware.

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This is what the roof vents looked like when I began. One vent had broken in transport to TX and the other was more vent than cover.





It looks to me as if the original 14 1/2'X14 1/2" vent openings were later sized down with plates and smaller vents installed into those plates. Pulling off the old silicone, which was still good, and removing the plates and vents was so easy it spooked me. I kept waiting for some serious snag.



In come a brace of Heng's universal roof vents.



They popped right in without much difficulty. A lot of the previous screw holes were close enough to count. As for those that didn't, with enough pressure, any screw can become a self tapping screw! After screwing them down they got a liberal, if not precise application of silicone. The underside of the vents will be installed later when I've decided how to work out the interior roof. Much of that will probably be replaced. For now, no more venting unless I open one on purpose.

The vents stick up a bit further than the old pair, but that doesn't bother me. With time, there's probably going to be a bunch of other stuff up here as well. And, again, they just needed to get put in place. They can tag out at a later date if I want them to do so.





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Excuse the mess, but here's an idea of the original interior layout for anyone interested.







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The ID/info plate.



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Unfortunately the lift panels are shot to crud and will need to be replaced. I think I've settled on the conduit lifters and some external gas struts. After the fiasco of having to finish my plywood cuts with a wood chisel due to the nature of reciprocating saw precision, I think it best to not try to fabricate the original style wood lifters with the tools available.

In the meantime, I picked up a couple of these bad boys for holding/lifting the roof up when I need to do interior work. I've seen them at Lowe's and Cabela's for about 25 bucks a pop. They ratchet up very easily and might be an economical solution for the strength or height impaired, both financially and with space.



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As you can probably tell, there's a lot of work that needs to be done on this old Keystone. In the end it should be worth the trouble and I've actually been enjoying the process so far. It's been too long since I've had a good project to use my hands on for any length of time. Already this has been both educational and rewarding.

So, the things I want to accomplish, in no particular order:

Fix the door. It came apart on me it's held together with an unusual use of spare hardware that was in my toolbox for no obvious reason. Shouldn't be terribly difficult to rebuild the frame and insulate.

Remove the interior paneling and replace the insulation with 1' foam board. Pretty strait forward, but the new paneling will have to wait until I settle on the redesign of the interior layout. There's a lot of space to utilize and I want to be efficient with that space. No rushing this department. This also ties into the rewiring and the aspects of the project that entails.

Complete replacement of cushions and upholstery. The interior was too long the home of various insects and critters to simply clean up. Something vinyl or the like will likely win out for both cost and ease of cleanup.

Patch the few small perforations in the outside panels. This will probably be fiberglassed from the inside and some form of bondo on the outside. This will take place before painting the exterior to roughly match the color scheme of the truck.

Way down the road, replace the pop up side material. This wont happen for a while, but I've got a local place that gives sewing lessons and I plan to be able to complete this myself by the time I'm ready to drop the cash on materials. For now, patch as necessary.

I will also be removing the original furnace and fridge. If anyone is in the El Paso area and would like to have them, I can hook you up once that portion of the project is reached. I don't know if they have any value, but they are yours if you want them.

The rest is what you might imagine. Layout, new utilities, various steps that will present themselves along the way, whether or not I see them coming ahead of time.

Thanks once again for letting me take part and glean from everyone that has gone before. This is a "budget project" and probably won't be featured on any showroom spreads any time soon, but it's fun, it's for hunting season next year, and I'm enjoying the ride.



 
Looks like it is coming along. We did not have a cabinet on the passenger side of the entry door. We kept our porta-potti on the floor in that space. That looks like a custom cabinet and probably a nice addition (can't tell from the pic).

From what I can see in the pics the driver's side looks the same as ours. Although, we did not have a heater and it looks like yours does. I think I see a three burner range top. The missus misses that. We have a two burner in our 2007 Keystone. However, she does like the hot water and pressurized water system over the old hand pump faucet. ;-)

I tried to seal the canvas on our old 1984 Keystone but it was so brittle that new leaks kept appearing. I have a friend who has a 1983 Keystone that he has owned since it was new. It has always been stored inside with the top up. The canvas is still pliable and he has never had a leak or any mold. The end panels and in fact the whole camper are still in good shape. (he also has a 1993 Dodge Diesel W250 long bed truck like mine except his is but it a regular cab not a club cab). I think the canvas material that is now used in the newer campers is more robust - I hope anyway.

BTW: the window in the front driver side of our 1984 Keystone camper as well as the two over couch side windows were louvered glass. I hated those windows. Yours look to be solid glass. Much better in my opinion.

I am happy to see you giving this old camper new life.

Craig
 
Thanks, Craig.

This one has a 3 burner, furnace, sink, and the compartment on the passenger side was for a toilet and maaaaybe a shower, can't tell. I'm considering one, but that depends on how ambitious I get. An instant hot water unit on the outside is too easy, but we'll see.

All the windows are actual glass. They will most likely get some tint in the future for privacy and temp control.

The canvas is the single biggest concern. It's going to take some sewing lessons and an appropriate sewing machine, but I think it'll happen.
 
I wouldn't use silicone caulking.on the roof or any penetrations of the roof. Personally I prefer Dicor. There are other sealants also that would be better on your roof.
 
JDeanP,

Would it be possible for you to measure and take some more pictures of the rear closet? I am in the first stages (deconstruction and planning) of a mid 80s Keystone rebuild, that was in a rougher state than yours. Mine did not show any indication of a closet there, but I would like to see what the configuration would be if installed. (I will start a thread once I have some progress on the rebuild.) Thanks.
 
JDeanP- I believe this is close to what your insignia of approval plate (in post #4) would have looked like... (I zapped the numbers on this one)

ColoradoInsigniaModified copy.jpg

Under the left rivet, that's S.N. (for serial number), and under the right it's 'Fire Safety'

Also- if you run upon model numbers for your furnace, fridge, and converter, I'd appreciate knowing what they are as I'm interested in understanding what FWC put in the campers at the time.

Also- How difficult was it to replace the cabover floor? I'd think there may be some prospective buyers of older FWCs who would like to know (like, uh, me!)
 
PIP, I can do that. The next time I'm in the back I'll try to get some better pictures and measurements for you.

Old Crow, I'll try to keep track of things that might be of interest. With all the things wrong with this camper, it still has the original manual. I plan to get images of that uploaded as well.

As for the cabover floor, as long as you can remove some side panelling in order to remove the oak support boards, it's a piece of pie. I used the one "good" corner as a template to get the rounded portions correct and I did that with a reciprocating saw in a parking lot. If you have a proper work space and tools you shouldn't hesitate to take a whack at replacing one.
 
JDP.

I was in the exact same boat as you for a while, working in parking lots. I luckily also had a guest room to put stuff in, but my wife really did not find that too amusing. Luckily I now have an awesome garage that I currently sit in while I type.

Sounds like you are tackling projects in a similar order to me. And good for you to take the right approach of using the camper as a learning experience. That is exactly what I did and am quite happy with it. It really is not that expensive of a hobby in the grand scheme of things and has been an incredible learning experience.

Make sure you check out my build page too as I cover almost everything you are interested in. Let me know if you have any questions. Looking forward to seeing what you do with yours!

Tim
 
Tim,

I've seen your work and it has helped me a lot in figuring/planning things out. Thank you for that. You're right about this not being as expensive as one might think. I wouldn't want to pay for someone else's labor, but that would take a lot of the fun out as well. It really is a fun process.
 
Man, time has flown while being busy at work. My apologies for not getting you these dimensions earlier.

This isn't the prettiest sketch, but it should have all the info. I have some time this weekend to put into the FWC, so I should have some better pictures to accompany later on.










 
Is there any knowledge out there about this propane tank? It seems to be in good order, but getting blown up while cooking isn't how I want to go out. At least not in this context.

8mQvHi.jpg




 
JDeanP said:
Is there any knowledge out there about this propane tank? It seems to be in good order, but getting blown up while cooking isn't how I want to go out. At least not in this context.
-snip-
Click to expand...
Sorry, I missed this one. I started a reply but lost it, got distracted, whatever. Let me give it a shot now.

The thing that jumps out at me about the tank is the round valve handle. That suggests it doesn't have an Overfilling Protection Device as it doesn't have a triangular handle.

OPDs were mandated in the late 90s so I'm guessing this one hasn't been updated. I understand the 2001 edition of the Liquified Petroleum Gas Code granted an exception for horizontal tanks. However, those tanks are supposed to be marked to indicate the exception. The other thing about it is there are different rules for portable horizontal tanks such as you have and permanently-installed horizontal tanks in RVs. I don't know if that exception applied to both.

That raises the obvious question. Has the tank been refilled since 2002? If the previous owner was using it, I imagine the answer could be as simple as the owner took it to a propane refill station that didn't follow the rules. Or it has the marks indicating an exemption to the OPD mandate.

The tank itself appears to be a vintage Manchester horizontal 20-pound-capacity tank. We can see the Manchester logo in the top photo. There should be markings on the metal protective collar telling you what month and year the tank was manufactured. The general rule is a tank needs to be re-certified after the first 12 years, then every five years after (assuming it continues to pass). And when that's done the tank is marked to indicate that has been done.

The yellow strip is an Accu-Level propane-tank level gauge. The idea is you pour hot water over it and you'll see the color change is different above vs below the level of liquid propane in the tank. They're still being sold today.

The orange plug is to be used when transporting the cylinder after removing the hose assembly. It's purpose is to protect the valve threads and keep them clean.

The regulator appears to be a rather straightforward two-stage regulator, a Helco in this case.

The system may work fine but of course you'll want to check things out as best you can. I think I'd disconnect and pull out the tank and examine (and photograph) the markings. If it's not obvious how the previous owner was able to get it filled without an OPD, start calling some propane re-certification techs and tell them what you have and see what they have to say. If you only get to talk to a clerk, you may not get anywhere and I'm sure there are techs who will just give you a convenient answer. You might try using the idea that you have a vintage camper and would like to preserve the vintage tank if possible. A replacement Manchester horizontal 20-pound tank is going to cost around $200 empty, by the way. You don't HAVE to replace it with a 20# horizontal. An 11 pound vertical squatty might also work and those are about $60. And, no, you can't use a vertical 20# tank lying on it's side. Also-- the vintage re-hab guys on here may have better answers.

The other thing to do, of course, is to check that rubber hose's condition and test all the connections with soapy water once you have the tank back in place and turn on the valve. Brushing the soapy water on with a paintbrush seems to be the right combination of convenience, access, and reach.

Let us know how it goes!

.
 
I just put a new one of these in my camper build up. New Manchester tank, new regulator and hoses. Nice thing about the new Manchesters is that they come with a guage, and sturdy mounting loops.
 
That's a lot of solid info for that propane tank. Thank you. Ironically, it's one thing I didn't really touch earlier today when I was out getting serious about gutting the inside.

Work has been pretty hectic the past couple months, so I wanted to take as much out as I could to make up for "being behind".

The fridge was the first thing to come out. It wasn't clear what type of unit it was and I wanted to see how heavy it was, if a cooler could be made to replace it, if there was water damage behind it, etc. Turns out that it's just a simple shell encased in a styrofoam case and screwed into the paneling with a simple drain hose that went to the outside of the camper. You can see that there was no sealing around the hose, just drill and feed through.








If anyone, for some reason, wants this thing, you're more than welcome to meet me in the El Paso area and have at it.
 
The furnace was also removed today. It's old (obviously), heavy, and takes up a good bit of space. I was going to see about checking out its functionality, but there are smaller, lighter options that will probably do the trick and won't keep me wondering if they're going to burst into flames at any moment.

I'm finding that a lot of the finish work was done by someone who didn't think anyone was ever going to see their handiwork in the future. Not a huge deal, but there are areas that will definitely be getting sealed up in the process of finishing this project.

Included is the information plate from the inside of the furnace in case anyone is curious. Again, if someone can actually use this thing, it's yours.


 
To the right of the fridge (driver's side of the camper) was the stove and then the sink. Both of these seem to be serviceable and in ok condition.

The stove will need some cleaning up, but nothing som CLR can't handle. There were some other stoves I have been considering, but it's hard to get anything for the right price that can compete with a 3 burner that has a folding metal top built in and is already on hand.

One Idea that I had played around with was making the stove the top of a chuck box that could be disconnected from the interior LP, unlatched, and carried outside for when it was too warm, or I simply didn't want to, cook inside. This idea probably wont see play. Once I found out about the Webber Q, that seemed like a great idea for cooking outside, as well as adding some options for cooking methods. https://www.weberbbq.com.au/weber-q/

The sink is a simple stainless tub and a separate faucet hooked to a water pump. If the pump works and can't be replaced by something with a significant weight savings, it'll probably go back in.

It was very bright out today and I didn't realize that the pictures were juuust out of focus where I wanted them. However, I did get some pictures of the water tank and found a card or sticker from the manufacturer of the tank. Pictures will have to wait, but the tank itself seems to be custom made for the Keystone. It conforms to the angles and panels on the inside and even has an odd angle itself to accommodate the hose from the furnace to the outlet in a cabinet further towards the cab end of the interior. As long as it can be sanitized and used safely, it'll most likely stay.





 
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