2015 Hawk UTE existing wiring & Proposed sketch

[pvstoy]

I bought this 2015 Flatbed Hawk and will be doing some rewiring. I sketched out the way it is existing power runs and show a proposed power wiring that may or may not help others to visualize a thought process. This is by all means not the way you should do it as this is just one example as how you could do it.

Hope this helps somebody that is trying to wrap their mind around what wiring looks like and encourage some to try it that are unfamiliar with the whole electrical system.

Still working out some little details.

Click on the image to view it bigger, Cheers....
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[Vic Harder]

Looks good. Do you already have the Trimetric gear? If not, I would think about going with a Victron MPPT instead with that much solar on the roof.

 

[ckent323]

If you have the Blue Sea ML-ACR in case you need to jump the truck battery I wonder if a 100 A breaker is big enough.

I am not sure what a typical starter for a gas engine pulls but I 'm guessing at least 150 - 250 amps. A diesel starter pulls about twice that or more (e.g the manual for my 1993 Dodge with Cummins diesel says the starter will pull 450 - 700 amps - more when it is cold).

If your vehicle battery is too low to start your engine I can imagine it needing more than 100 amps on a cold morning.

Since the Blue Sea ML-ACR is rated for 500 Amps why not fuse the connection to the camper house battery bank for 200 or 300 amps to be sure you can jump start?

You do want to make sure the wire you use is sufficiently large. For a 20 foot circuit with no more than 30 seconds dwell on the starter 2 ga should be fine up to 200 or 300 amps. But you cannot just keep cranking past 30 seconds or you will overheat the wires. I have no idea how long you would need to wait before cranking again but I would wait a minute or two.

Hopefully, one of the more knowledgeable guys will comment on this. Better, if someone who has actually need to jump from the camper battery bank has

 

[Vic Harder]

I only have 100A breakers on 2g wire, and the batteries are often interconnected during starting. No issues.

I would also consider putting the ACR in the battery box of the camper. That way the voltage drop from the alternator can be taken into account.

 

[pvstoy]

Thanks for the feedback.

I was planning on using 2 or 4 gauge from truck to camper batteries, leaning on 2gauge fine strand wire( welding wire). 100 amp breakers on either end sounds good. You could also just use your 2 gauge jumper cables and link then together ( if long enough) to jump start yourself.

Putting the blueseas ACR under the hood allows the remote rocker switch to have a short run to the cab and Easier than running it from inside the camper. The 2012 Dodge Ram crew cab 5.7 hemi alternator seems dumb and shows a constant 14.8 volts. Don't have a amp meter yet to see how the amps range is but it is specked out as 160 amp. So I think the ACR is just going to see voltage traveling through at a constant voltage. The shunt near the camper battery will record what is being received after the line loss.

I do have a feeling that with the solar the rocker switch on the ACR will be in mode that does not allow voltage to travel to the camper from the alternator. The higher voltage from the alternator will cause the solar to go into float or go to sleep mode too early. The rocker switch will also allow when the camper batteries are done charging with solar to allow the truck battery to be charged with solar. That is good when you are sitting for seven days.

No I have not purchased the stuff yet for the rewire. I have the trimetric meter now and is easy too use it. I see the Victron system for solar and shunt and meter have the built in system for using devices like I pad. I don't own any of that and that part would be wasted on me. The mated pair from bogart (meter,solar) should be fine as I'm going to put the panels in parallel. Unless you can sell me on the Victron system or MPPT........

 

[ckent323]

Vic,

Have you ever needed to do a jump start from the house batteries?

I am wondering if the 100 A breakers pop. Is this another case of over thinking things? Cause it sure seems to me that if you need a couple hundred amps you want to make sure the breakers don't thwart that.

Pause ..... OK, I just looked at the Bussman breaker rating and the 100 a is a steady state current rating. A 100 A breaker will allow about 150 - 200 A for 20 sec before popping.

See charts here:

https://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-142618731068637/18XHighCircuitBreakers.pdf

(Edit - it is not over thinking, rather it is not thinking about how the breakers actually operate (thermal) and that the rating is steady state so transient current flow can be much higher than the rating before the breaker pops.)


So for my diesel it seems a 150 Amp breaker should do the trick as I can get up to about 200% of rated current in less than 20 seconds before the breaker pops which should be enough for a start jump.

I think I have answered my own question - humm, maybe I am getting a little better at this. Then again....

;-)

Craig

 

[mynxd]

I don't see the wire gauge from the roof to the controller in your diagrams. In my ATC, I had to wire the 2x100w panels in series, as the wire used when prewiring for solar was only 14 gauge (provides more flex when raising and lowering the roof). The 14 gauge would have been inadequate for my panels to be wired in parallel.

good luck with your project. Grant

 

[rando]

This all seems like a good plan. I would agree with Vic about looking into the Victron stuff over the Bogart stuff. MPPT will buy you an extra 20% or more, regardless of the panels being in parallel or series. Also 360W of solar is a LOT, and it is going to be heavy on the roof. Unless you have some specific heavy power uses, I am not sure you would need that much, particularly in the sunny south west. I would think that 200W and MPPT may be enough, but you know your situation better than I.

One point of clarification - you don't have to worry about the alternator and the solar charger confusing each other. If the voltage on your batteries gets to the 'charged' voltage from the alternator or from solar, then your batteries are charged. They don't care where the current came from.

Thanks for the feedback.

I was planning on using 2 or 4 gauge from truck to camper batteries, leaning on 2gauge fine strand wire( welding wire). 100 amp breakers on either end sounds good. You could also just use your 2 gauge jumper cables and link then together ( if long enough) to jump start yourself.

Putting the blueseas ACR under the hood allows the remote rocker switch to have a short run to the cab and Easier than running it from inside the camper. The 2012 Dodge Ram crew cab 5.7 hemi alternator seems dumb and shows a constant 14.8 volts. Don't have a amp meter yet to see how the amps range is but it is specked out as 160 amp. So I think the ACR is just going to see voltage traveling through at a constant voltage. The shunt near the camper battery will record what is being received after the line loss.

I do have a feeling that with the solar the rocker switch on the ACR will be in mode that does not allow voltage to travel to the camper from the alternator. The higher voltage from the alternator will cause the solar to go into float or go to sleep mode too early. The rocker switch will also allow when the camper batteries are done charging with solar to allow the truck battery to be charged with solar. That is good when you are sitting for seven days.

No I have not purchased the stuff yet for the rewire. I have the trimetric meter now and is easy too use it. I see the Victron system for solar and shunt and meter have the built in system for using devices like I pad. I don't own any of that and that part would be wasted on me. The mated pair from bogart (meter,solar) should be fine as I'm going to put the panels in parallel. Unless you can sell me on the Victron system or MPPT........

 

[pvstoy]

This all seems like a good plan. I would agree with Vic about looking into the Victron stuff over the Bogart stuff. MPPT will buy you an extra 20% or more, regardless of the panels being in parallel or series. Also 360W of solar is a LOT, and it is going to be heavy on the roof. Unless you have some specific heavy power uses, I am not sure you would need that much, particularly in the sunny south west. I would think that 200W and MPPT may be enough, but you know your situation better than I.....

If Victron stuff will be 20% more efficient then I need to have another look at the products. The two Grape Solar 180 watt panels are 53 pounds together, I do have the room, and will be traveling Canada and at times when the weather is cloudy, less solar hours. Is it still true that battery amp rating should be half of panel wattage less 10%. 360w x 90% = 324 / 2 = 162 I have batteries equal to 160 amp hour.

 

[rando]

Your usage is more important than the size of the batteries when sizing solar. My experience is that for a fleet flatbed with the isotherm fridge and a furnace is that 160W was enough solar for 90% of situations, and now that I have 240W I have yet to run low on power. My main reason for switching panels was not more power, but less weight on the roof.

You could also consider a single 180W roof panel and a 100 - 120W light weight portable panel. That way you have enough solar on the roof for most of the time at half the weight and a portable for when you have to/want to park in the shade or low solar conditions. A portable panel will also yield much more power at low sun angles found up north.

 

[ntsqd]

FWIW our camper is 'floated' from ground. The only grounding of the camper to the chassis occurs at the driver's side battery's ground cable.

I took 6ga. all of the way to the battery and the shunt. Breakers are 80A. If I need to jump-start I'll jumper the breakers and the VSR to take them out of the circuit entirely.

The same 80A breaker in the camper that protects against a short in the 6ga. also protects against a short in the feed to the fuse block and the solar input.

 

[BFH4N]

The one thing I don't see, which troubles me, is a fuse between the batteries. If one battery develops a shorted cell, and they are directly connected, as yours are, a large current can develop as the good (12V) battery tries to "charge" the bad one (10V). It is possible that enough current could flow to heat things up and start a fire. The solution is a fuse at one terminal of one battery. Since the fuse introduces a small voltage drop, I recommend a fuse at each battery, to keep things symetrical. There are fuse holders available that attach directly to the battery post.

- Bernard

 

[pvstoy]

Well you guys have had me thinking and reading..... a lot to the point that my head can explode!!! I propose different hardware items to consider.

Victron Energy products:

BMV-712 Smart battery monitor.
https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-systems-remote-monitoring/bmv-712-smart

Smart Battery Sense Voltage and Temperature sense ( what do you think of new technology)
https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/smart-battery-sense

SmartSolar MPPT Pick one that matches solar panels.

MPPT Control
https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-systems-remote-monitoring/mppt-control

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As far as the Blue Sea ACR, I think I will put it in the battery box and run the rocker switch into the camper wall next to the other monitors. I guess I really don't need it in the truck cab.

Question: With the MPPT solar panel controller, would I be looking for higher voltage panels and would it be better to be in series than parallel?

 

[rando]

The BMV-712 and Victron MPPT are solid options. You probably don't need the 'Smart Battery Sense' if you can mount the MPPT charger near the batteries (I have mine mounted in my battery box). The MPPT control is personal preference. I have one as the original MPPT chargers were either the display or bluetooth. But now that I have a new SmartSolar MPPT (that allows both the display AND bluetooth) I have to admit I primarily look at my phone to see what is going on, and certainly to adjust any settings.

As for the panels - there is a slight advantage to running higher voltage/lower current panels in that there is less voltage loss in the wires, but it is only slight. The bigger question would be if you ever intend to run a portable panel? It you run you roof panels in series for higher voltage you can no longer put a portable panel in parallel using the same charge controller. There was another thread discussing this in some detail.

 

[pvstoy]

Thanks Rando,

Yes I was planning to put the MPPT and the ACR along with the circuit breaker for the truck alternator charge cable in the battery box. The Hawk has the outside access for the two batteries and looks like some extra room in there. The solar wires terminate in there also. So the MPPT will be next to the batteries I don't need to spend extra money for the temp and voltage sense, GREAT!!! The factory wiring is upper left behind where the porta poty is as you enter the door (above battery box), and have to do major tear apart to get to it.

I plan to have what I think I need for panels mounted on the roof and not mess with a portable panel. There is just not enough space to store one. Thanks for the tip on panels and will start searching.

The MPPT monitor is not needed. I read that in another one of your post. I guess If I can get it to work on a older android smart phone or the wife's I-pad then that to could save money. Only need to program it once and then it is just the cool feature that you can't stop watching. Do you get enough information on the BMV screen that would overlap the MPPT monitor?

What happens to the solar wire run to the rear of the camper? Looks like on mine, booth wires are combined in that area above the battery box. So would there be voltage and current flowing that direction to the rear of the camper. Is that going to have more line loss? I'm not going to use the rear and would it be better to disconnect those wires from the roof wires?

 

[paddlesurf.net]

Thanks Rando,

Yes I was planning to put the MPPT and the ACR along with the circuit breaker for the truck alternator charge cable in the battery box. The Hawk has the outside access for the two batteries and looks like some extra room in there. The solar wires terminate in there also. So the MPPT will be next to the batteries I don't need to spend extra money for the temp and voltage sense, GREAT!!! The factory wiring is upper left behind where the porta poty is as you enter the door (above battery box), and have to do major tear apart to get to it.

I plan to have what I think I need for panels mounted on the roof and not mess with a portable panel. There is just not enough space to store one. Thanks for the tip on panels and will start searching.

The MPPT monitor is not needed. I read that in another one of your post. I guess If I can get it to work on a older android smart phone or the wife's I-pad then that to could save money. Only need to program it once and then it is just the cool feature that you can't stop watching. Do you get enough information on the BMV screen that would overlap the MPPT monitor?

What happens to the solar wire run to the rear of the camper? Looks like on mine, booth wires are combined in that area above the battery box. So would there be voltage and current flowing that direction to the rear of the camper. Is that going to have more line loss? I'm not going to use the rear and would it be better to disconnect those wires from the roof wires?

Are you sure that those wires in the battery box are connected to the plug on the roof for your solar?

The reason I ask is this: I just picked up my 2017 flatbed Hawk and I know for certain (received an email from FWC that confirms this) that the red and black wires that are in my battery box are not connected to the solar plug.

Those wires (red and black in battery box) are to be connected to the + and - terminals of your battery bank (in my case the - would go to my BVM 712 shunt) the other end of those wires run across the the camper and terminate under the sink. Those wires are then to be connected to your solar controller (the factory has a cut out for where they would have mounted their controller) in the "battery" + and - terminals of the controller.

The solar wires (from the plug on the roof and the plug out the back of the camper) are also coiled up under the sink.

Mine are labeled "Roof solar" and "rear plug" - those wires, from both plugs, are already spliced together in these clear butt blocks and they are to be connected to your solar controller in the PV + and PV - terminals.

For me to mount my mppt (victron 100/20) in the battery bank, I would have to take the water tank cabinet apart and re-route the under the sink solar wires across the camper into the battery box. I'm just going to mount the controller in the sink cabinet high up on the back wall and use the factory wiring.

You might want to check your sink cabinet, under the water pump, to see if you have those solar plug wires coiled up there. You're wiring might be the same as mine.

 

[rando]

On my 2016 Fleet flatbed, the wires from the roof and wall solar plugs are in parallel and also end in the battery box, so I suspect pvstoy's wires are like this as well.

As for the MPPT display - I like data, so I would want either a device (iphone in my case) or the MPPT display, but that is purely a personal preference. You do get a little more detailed charge history data from the MPPT, and you can separate out the charge current from the load current to see exactly what your solar panels are producing. The BMV only shows you the net current into the battery. None of this is necessary, just for your interest.

Reading on the Victron site, you really don't need the temp/voltage sensor device as the BMV-712 will now provide that information wirelessly to the MPPT! This is one of the coolest things about Victron, they are constantly innovating, and for many of us who already own this equipment this functionality will be added for free with a firmware update.

 

[paddlesurf.net]

On my 2016 Fleet flatbed, the wires from the roof and wall solar plugs are in parallel and also end in the battery box, so I suspect pvstoy's wires are like this as well.

As for the MPPT display - I like data, so I would want either a device (iphone in my case) or the MPPT display, but that is purely a personal preference. You do get a little more detailed charge history data from the MPPT, and you can separate out the charge current from the load current to see exactly what your solar panels are producing. The BMV only shows you the net current into the battery. None of this is necessary, just for your interest.

Reading on the Victron site, you really don't need the temp/voltage sensor device as the BMV-712 will now provide that information wirelessly to the MPPT! This is one of the coolest things about Victron, they are constantly innovating, and for many of us who already own this equipment this functionality will be added for free with a firmware update.

Hey could you give me more information on the temperature sensor you mentioned as an upgrade to the BMV-712? Since my controller is in a different cabinet than my batteries this is a feature I could really use.

Wonder if Hawk flatbed wiring is different than Fleet? Will be interesting to see - I thought layouts were similar.

 

[pvstoy]

Yes 2015 Hawk flatbed both solar wires come together just above the battery box. Tied together with terminal blocks then access the battery box below.

If not going to use, does the extra solar wire run to the rear effect the line losses having that run live and connected with a terminal block? I know that voltage and current will flow the direction of use but any ill effect of it just letting it sit in the wire? One thought just popped into my head that could use that wire run to mount a backup camera.

 

[ntsqd]

Those unused wires will have whatever voltage in them, but without a load connected to them there will be no current. With no current there's no loss.