3/4 ton is not the end all

[EdoHart]

[snip]
I purchased a new Hawk shell with dinette and did all the rest of the interior upgrades to make it a "camper" without all the bells and whistles of a FWC and save some dough. I do have a 22 gal water tank, two 10 gal lp tanks identical to FWC on their camper. Beyond that I also have two batteries instead of one. So basically same deal as a FWC Hawk "Camper" model.
[/snip]


Have you weighed your truck/camper combination?

I have built several interiors for 4 different truck/camper combinations and I always over build. It wasn't until I took apart my FWC for the first time that I realized how much I was over building. I little of bit of plywood (as small as 1/2 X 1/2 X 6 inch) can go a long way in providing strength and rigidity, while also reducing weight.

 

[RamRider]

The dodge forums tend to believe the spring rate is in fact softer for the PW coils and the extra weight is factored into the length the coil is built to. The 7 leaf packs are most definitely softer to allow more articulation.

Do you have a quad cab/short box? If so is your GVWR still 8800lb (that is what my QC, short box hemi is)? I know with the winch/skid plates/etc. the PW is heavier but I thought the GVWR was lowered a bit as well.

My bad. Checked the sticker it says 8510. Yes it's standard Quad Cab, short box. I thought they dropped Reg Cab by 2008. Shipping weight 5840

 

[pods8]

My bad. Checked the sticker it says 8510. Yes it's standard Quad Cab, short box. I thought they dropped Reg Cab by 2008. Shipping weight 5840


I wasn't positive on the cab arrangement I thought it was the case but just wanted to be sure. So looks like you're carrying an extra 300-400lb and your GVWR is derated by about 300lb. So that would account for the payload swing. Folks tend to see.

The confusing part on the dodge numbers to me is your shipping weight is 5840, I assume this is regular fluids but not gas, if so then you'd probably be looking at 6300lb with gas and driver. There should be an easy 2k there for payload still but I though I recalled the published payload is something like 1600lb, what gives? Have you actually scaled your truck to see what it's normally rolling at?

Similarly for mine my GVWR is 8800lb, I haven't scaled it out but I generally figured it weights about 6000lb with driver which would mean 2800lb of payload but I don't recall the numbers being that high either (more like 1800-2000lb). Confusing...

 

[K7MDL]

My 2005 hemi longbox is rated about 2600# payload and 8800#GVW so about 6200# truck weight with 1 150# driver and I think they count 1/2 tank of gas (35gallon tank). The Cummins version was 2000#. One reason besides cost I went the Hemi as I started with a full size camper as my target. With the Grandby on, I only lifted mine back up an inch by installing the optional spacer with the Timbrens. Unloaded the Timbrens (no spacer) are not in contact with the axle to I keep a decent unloaded ride. They barely touch the axle with spacer installed and unloaded so still a decent unloaded ride.

 

[RamRider]

The confusing part on the dodge numbers to me is your shipping weight is 5840, I assume this is regular fluids but not gas, if so then you'd probably be looking at 6300lb with gas and driver. There should be an easy 2k there for payload still but I though I recalled the published payload is something like 1600lb, what gives? Have you actually scaled your truck to see what it's normally rolling at?

Yeah confusing. 5840 was on original Certificate of Origin. Still 34 gal of gas is just about 200lb. I'd make a guess they ship it with fluids but no gas. I always thought curb weight about 6300lb.

 

[pods8]

Took the FWC out over the weekend on the new truck. Thought the springs handled the general driving quite well, not too soft and not too harsh, hard rocks had a bit more sway. Might look into timbrens as I understand they're basically an air dampener as opposed to an airspring, that'll kick in for those side/side rocks.

Camper on truck, I didn't look at the ratio of overload to the pack but she's not squatting:

Family up in the king sized pullout:

 

[dorocks]

I went from a 2001 Tundra (which I had to add a Deaver spring pack to) to a 2005 Dodge Ram 2500. At first I thought I might have to add airbags or such. I have not done so. The rear end went down of course but still has ample spring space. It is not squirrelly and actually feels better since the truck without anything in it is hard riding in the rear. It is much nicer with the camper on it.

It did just fine pulling the Jeep to Moab too.

 

[UglyScout]

It is not squirrelly and actually feels better since the truck without anything in it is hard riding in the rear. It is much nicer with the camper on it.

It did just fine pulling the Jeep to Moab too.


My 3/4 ton Chevy rides better with the Grandby in the back as well. Which is a good thing, as I am too lazy to take it out and the truck is my wifes daily driver

 

[jcfly]

OK, I just could not resist looking under my truck after reading this thread. I have a 2009 Chevy 2500 HD with a Hawk that weighs in at just under 1100lbs. , and my springs are near flat. The helper springs are engaged. The truck sits level, and rides very well. The suspension is stock.

Is this something I should be concerned about??

 

[pods8]

You know I'm not really sure why one would be concerned about the overloads engaging, they're an active part of the spring pack, they're not like hitting a bump stop or such. The initial range is to give the rig a chance of not being a total teeth rattler when driving unloaded, once the overloads engage (which isn't unreasonable considering almost all of us are putting 1000lb+ into the back) the spring rate stiffens up. As long as the handling isn't feeling off or headlights pointing upwards I don't really see the issue. You can get a progressive leaf pack to replace the single piece overloads if you want to smooth out the transition between when it is and isn't engaged.

 

[LT Traveler]

OK, I just could not resist looking under my truck after reading this thread. I have a 2009 Chevy 2500 HD with a Hawk that weighs in at just under 1100lbs. , and my springs are near flat. The helper springs are engaged. The truck sits level, and rides very well. The suspension is stock.

Is this something I should be concerned about??




Not trying to be snarky, but isn't this what the spring pack is designed to do? I lust for a 3/4 ton truck so I won't have to worry about being overloaded and the resulting wear and tear. It kills me when I read forums and see people post they have a 3/4 or 1-ton truck, the load squatted the truck .000014" and they're adding air bags, sway bars, etc.

If the truck sits level, rides very well....IMHO, enjoy it!

 

[cruiser62]

I've discussed my upgraded to the front end of my 07 5.9 CTD short box crew in another post here but just wanted to let folks know my experience with the Ram 2500 since there seems to be much discussion about whether to get a 1500 or a 2500 truck. Not taking into consideration brakes of course, my opinion now is that you'll spend just as much upgrading suspension on a 2500 (at least a Dodge) as you would on any 1500. I purchased a new Hawk shell with dinette and did all the rest of the interior upgrades to make it a "camper" without all the bells and whistles of a FWC and save some dough. I do have a 22 gal water tank, two 10 gal lp tanks identical to FWC on their camper. Beyond that I also have two batteries instead of one. So basically same deal as a FWC Hawk "Camper" model.

My rear springs are nearly flattened out and are close to the overloads, truck feels top heavy and you definitely know you have a large heavy item in the bed of the truck. So this business of saying "buy a 3/4 ton and it doesn't even know the camper is back there" is a pipedream in my experience. I am nearly as uncomfortable with the Hawk camper on the back of my 3/4 ton as I was with my Finch shell on my Frontier.

So now it looks like I will continue to invest into the suspension as anyone would with a 1500. Springs, bags, etc.

I have put in a new red head steering box, dynatrac ball joints, new load range E 285/70 Hankook's, new BD steering brace, new T style steering link and dragbar, new swaybar bushings, new bilstein 5100 shocks, and yet the truck still yearns for more of a solid foundation under it. I'm running 70 lbs pressure in the tires front and back.

So unless Ford or Chevy has a beefier spring pack than Dodge, the 3/4 ton myth is busted in my opinion based on my experience. Going to a custom spring shop tomorrow to get it resolved. Est. $500


I have the '07 Ram 4WD crew cab 5.9L CTD w/ Hawk as well. Yes, for the sake of off road wheel travel they are jacked up a bit and tend to be top heavy. I added PacBrake air bags which keep it level, but do nothing for the sway problem. I put on sway bars which also did nothing. On the TDR (Turbo Diiesel Register) forum, a number of members have used Rancho adjustable shocks with good results. I don't believe they are the same quality as the Bilsteins I have on now, but they seem to do the job. I'll be trying them next. The TDR is an excellent source of info for any of your Dodge Cummins concerns. Just ignore the extreme right wing views of a few members.

 

[K7MDL]

I removed my aftermarket rear sway bar when I downsized my camper to the Grandby and swapped my airbags with Timbrens (to allow full axle drop and no ripped bags) and have no sway issues. I chose to use the 1" spacer so it is barely in full contact with the axle at rest and I get the near original raked angle which I wanted for offroad ground clearance on an otherwise stock truck. I do have the lighter gas engine and the stock suspension and steering has been just fine for me. 2005 hemi QC long bed 2500 here. The heavier diesel packages likely account for a different experience.

 

[ntsqd]

'96 vintage 2500, Springs aren't flat, O/L's were just starting to come in contact with the camper in the bed, and the truck still sits nose down. The problem with O/L's, IMO, is that they are a dramatic rise in spring rate. Something that no damper can deal with effectively. I see Timbrens and air springs as being in the same boat, though to a lessor degree.

So while the truck was on the hoist getting a Power-Lock installed I asked Ruben to flip them over. The regular springs can handle our Phoenix just fine, they don't need the O/L's, and the O/L's were the force behind our launching the camper up off the bed floor in Cottonwood Wash east of Kanab. That incident bent a bunch of stuff that likely wouldn't have been bent had the shocks been able to cope with the springs.
So on went some Bilsteins 5160's and by flipping the O/L's I now have a nice ramp for the spring to roll down onto rather than kinking off the ends of the spring perch on the axle housing. Ruben has a nice trick that allows bringing the O/L's back into play w/o flipping them again if they are ever needed.

With the OP's troubles I've got to wonder what his camper now weighs. Something is out of kilter.

 

[generubin]

My Dodge 2500 drops by only 3/4 inch with my ATC Ocelot. Leans a tad around corners but it don't bother me, I just go slower. My suspension is stock. I stay away from bags and sway bars because I don't need them and they do limit suspension flexibility when I am in rocky/stair step situations.

 

[ThinAir]

Sorry i've not gotten back to the post since the original message but I've been out and about in Montana for quite some time.

In the mean time I've added a custom spring into my existing spring pac through a local spring shop that specializes in this sort of thing. I had a few choices which included a new spring pac for a dually of the same year, or a single spring inserted into my existing. Each one of my springs added 440 lbs capacity or 880 total. My camper, the Hawk camper must weigh at least that amount I thought so I went ahead with it. The difference is amazing, no more sway/roll and the ride seems either no different or perhaps better as I'm not getting the bouncy heavily loaded spring feedback into the cab.

Some stats here:

Before new spring the front end was 1" lower than the rear as a stock set up.
With the new spring with the camper on it is now idecntical, so the spring choice was spot on.
Withe the new springs and camper off I'm 2.5" higher in the back vs. the front. So the new spring added 1.5" of lift in the rear.

So driving down twisties and around pavers of all sorts the truck is MUCH more stable and predictable at all speeds.

However off road is suck ass really bad. I bottom out the front end quite easily and the front end seems not matched to the rear from an articulation perspective, unbalanced so to speak.

I spoke with Don Thuren about this and we came to the conclusion that his 2" soft coil would be ideal. So I've ordered them along with a new Thuren trackbar and new sway bar end links and we'll see how that goes. I put new bushings in my stock swaybar but they allow 1/4" of movement, or worse than the stock bushings. I got mine from Gino's garage and they are red in color. Hence the new trackbar.

My hope is that the front end will only sit an 1" higher than the back, I'll pick up a better ride, and the truck will offroad more effectively allowing for less front end roll/sway together with the new trackbar. And if I ever take the camper off the truck will be balanced with a couple inches only of lift.

 

[ThinAir]

Sorry i've not gotten back to the post since the original message but I've been out and about in Montana for quite some time.

In the mean time I've added a custom spring into my existing spring pac through a local spring shop that specializes in this sort of thing. I had a few choices which included a new spring pac for a dually of the same year, or a single spring inserted into my existing. Each one of my springs added 440 lbs capacity or 880 total. My camper, the Hawk camper must weigh at least that amount I thought so I went ahead with it. The difference is amazing, no more sway/roll and the ride seems either no different or perhaps better as I'm not getting the bouncy heavily loaded spring feedback into the cab.

Some stats here:

Before new spring the front end was 1" lower than the rear as a stock set up.
With the new spring with the camper on it is now idecntical, so the spring choice was spot on.
Withe the new springs and camper off I'm 2.5" higher in the back vs. the front. So the new spring added 1.5" of lift in the rear.

So driving down twisties and around pavers of all sorts the truck is MUCH more stable and predictable at all speeds.

However off road is suck ass really bad. I bottom out the front end quite easily and the front end seems not matched to the rear from an articulation perspective, unbalanced so to speak.

I spoke with Don Thuren about this and we came to the conclusion that his 2" soft coil would be ideal. So I've ordered them along with a new Thuren trackbar and new sway bar end links and we'll see how that goes. I put new bushings in my stock swaybar but they allow 1/4" of movement, or worse than the stock bushings. I got mine from Gino's garage and they are red in color. Hence the new trackbar.

My hope is that the front end will only sit an 1" higher than the back, I'll pick up a better ride, and the truck will offroad more effectively allowing for less front end roll/sway together with the new trackbar. And if I ever take the camper off the truck will be balanced with a couple inches only of lift.


In doing what I've done with the suspension, it is still basically stock but enhanced a bit. New Red Hat steering box, steering box stabilizer, Dynatrac Ball Joints, New T-Style dragbar, new stabilizer shock, and Bilstein shocks. I don't view the 2" increase in lift via a coil a huge suspension mod, it just help keeps the frame/bumpstops off the axle when off road so I'm not at a crawl over the smallest dip , washout, or water diversion hump. Turns out that Diesel front end is heavier than I thought.

As mentioned though having owned a Nissan Frontier with a Finch on it, all the same things need to be done to any truck imo. I'm happy to have the pulling capability of the diesel, more room in the vehicle and better fuel economy than the little gasser. I'm averaging 16 mpg with the camper on. 13 with the camper on towing two motorcycles on a flatbed aluminum trailer, and over 20 naked. I drive 69 mph on the slabs or just under 2,000 rpm, this seems to be the sweet spot for mpg.

As a sidenote, with or without the camper on the front end distance from wheel well to ground is unchanged, so it would appear that all of the weight in the bed of the truck is being managed by the rear end, probably why the spring upgrade back there made a HUGE difference. But the front end is affected by the top heavy weight of the camper when you 2wheel or go around corners, you can feel the front end sag in a sharp corner much more than the rear. Hence the front end upgrade to the springs.

 

[ThinAir]

Springs up front are in!! Added the Thuren trackbar and his "comfort" sway bar links. I have no airbags, no rear sway bar, just the extra spring in back and the 2" Thuren coils up front with some Bilsteins. The ride is much mo better up front and not bottoming into the bumstops nearly as easily. Front end actually feels like it ahs suspension now.

To some this may seems unnecessary, to others too expensive, or time consuming. To me it was a puzzle that needed to be completed. Hell I spent 25k on a truck, 15k on the camper and will spend who knows what on the trips, so for me it was a no brainer to spend an extra $750 on the front end to get it up off the front axle, provide less wander and roll, and make the off road experience much more enjoyable. On a factory CTD set up there is just over 2" of distance between the stops and the axle! Stunningly that seems enough for pavement or unloaded slow going on gravel, but my own experience with a FWC on the back cruising around our Montana roads that lead to the spots I like to recreate in, well 2" was simply not adequate. One just feels they're doing the vehicle a disservice constantly banging the front end like that. Hell my 06 Nissan with the Finch on the back handled the same roads better with respect to the front end. The back end... another story

The truck is now balanced and suspended nicely for the Hawk that sits on the back. Happy Ending!!