Attention a Electrical Sleuths

I would bet it's a battery problem. Unless you do a real load test on them separately, issues will be masked by the good one. I just went through this yesterday with the starting batteries in my diesel. Voltages all looked good, sometimes would have more than enough juice to turn over, other times, the solenoid wouldn't hold. Brought them down to the local auto parts store that had a load tester and sure enough, one was bad and they got a sale of 2 new batteries.

Sounds like you have some other issues going on too that probably helped to cause a battery to fail early.
 
I assume you have power on one side of the isolator and not the other? I'd jumper around it and see how it charges.

These compressor fridges do take more power than I'd originally assumed and generate a lot of heat. When I installed mine i had Marty put in a door for access and venting but I found that was insufficient and added another vent with a fan.
 
From domestics website it states you can never have too much insolation and a minimum should be 36 square inches sound be on each fridge. http://www.dometic.com/QBankFiles3/EPiServer/Dometic/US/Manuals/Marine-manuals/Refrigeration/CR-Refrigerators-Freezers-Manual_5525.pdf

ImageUploadedByWander The West1463342116.886601.jpg


1990 Ford F-250
1997 fwc grandby
 
I know the fridge needs to be open and vented to the back, but what about the sides? There is about 2" of open space on each side of mine, and on top and bottom.
 
Sides shouldn't matter. Like it says "A refrigerator removes heat from the refrigerated space and gives it off from the coils (condenser) on the back of it. The heat MUST be removed from the rear of the refrigerator or it cannot operate correctly" its all from the coils.

I had even considered venting mine from the top letting nature help but not so nice in the summer.
 
It's all about keeping the environment around the condenser as cool as possible. Your refrigerator is taking heat from inside and transferring it outside. The larger the temp differential between the condenser and its environment the more efficient the refrigerator (runs less, uses less power).

Dumping heat inside is nice in cold weather, not so nice in hot weather. I know people that switch depending on temperatures.

Most efficient passive cooling is cold air coming in from below and the hot air exhausting up high (chimney effect). Strategically placed fans can greatly increase air exchange.

jim
 
Batteries, fridge, batteries and solar,batteries batteries batteries...

Wuck, et al,
(Unintended pun)

Your many suggestions come wth valid arguments, are well appreciated and enthusiastically received. And here I have been trying to do this on my own and having no fun. I may even learn something about electricity and the scientific method.

My sense is, that the battery component and its condition must be resolved before actively addressing other implications proposed. One thing at a time.

Historically, last fall the batteries tested positively in Missoula, Mt. at a large RV service center. They also tested positive in April at 4WCs Woodland factory (particularly maddening as a few hours later the surge cycled wildly while dry camping at Harris Ranch a few miles down the road). A couple weeks later in early May (and at wits end), they were again checked at Interstate Battery, Carson City Nevada. Then, untrustingly, again a few blocks away at an RV Solar specific repair shop.
Of course, all positive results. At Interstate particularly, I was practically begging them to install new batteries waving my credit cards in desperation. They had every opportunity to sell the store but would not give those damn batteries a poor grade. Sooner or later I'll have to trust that at least one of those places knew what they were doing. Today we are applying Happyjax suggested "real world testing method" and hope to put and end to suspicions of inept testing and move on. All that said, after two years of fighting this problem, surly, they must be damaged by now.

While performing this "mother of all tests", there are at least two, if not three issues still on the table, battery charging, refrigerator performance and wire gauges.

SOLAR
Both forum input and Tri-metric historical data substantiate insufficient solar input
and possibly the battery separator as inadequate. I have not taken actual measurements from the separator as the Tri-metric always indicates an increase in voltage (up to 14.2) and amps with the vehicle running. That seems enough of an affirmation to remove it as a problem. As for panel capacity, 4WC and others have suggested replacing the current panel (under 100w) with a 160w unit. I'm thinking, why stop there, and will likely jump to 200w which will probably be next year's recommendation anyway. We can easily dry camp for 7-10 days and not always with direct sun. My wife is a gourmet and loves that fridge...OK, so I like to eat.
Too much is not a problem, is it?
Incidentally, the battery/controller/charger/separator compartment is spotless. There is no corrosion detectable and unless there is a faulty connection I cannot see, all else feels snug & tight.

REFRIDGERATION
Honestly, this has been my primary suspect all along. Venting is terrible (what were they thinking?). Dry camping in Furnace Creek, Death Valleys we chanced to be sandwiched between 2-4WCs (Hi Camelracer). Both campers had literally, square footage of fridge venting. How do they keep their interiors clean and heated? ....yea, but they don't have battery problems).
OK, I'm ready to cut holes in my wall to keep my wife's fridge running. But,
we tend to seek out dirt/gravel roads. Are there dust free, or fan activated vents that won't overtax the new batteries and new 200w solar panel?
Or, I could save a few thousand $$$ and buy a Honda generator....
Kidding........sort of.
If the fridge is bad, I'm not sure what the answer to that problem may entail.
So seriously, I'm looking for venting but want to keep dust infiltration down and a warm cabin in freezing weather. So far I've only seen plastic or sheet metal louvered panels and am open to all suggestions.

And then there is wire gauge question. Its doubtful that any of the camper wiring is too heavy but is it too small and perhaps choking what little current is available? Is it worth increasing the some of the critical circuitry to improve charging or distribution?
 
97Grandby and others,

Thank you for the Dometic Manual. Shockingly, I have more like 10 sq. inches of ventilation .
All interior, factory supplied!

Stan are you reading this?

I'll address this immediately.
 
While I haven't tried it at burning man, dust infiltration is pretty much limited to the fridge compartment. The fridge framing seals pretty well. I've never noticed any dust getting in. I suppose if I did it'd be pretty simple to seal it up. The compartment itself stays pretty dust free. Not sure why but it does.

As for the vertical ventilation, I'd love to see some ideas for something unobtrusive, easy to open and close and not destroy my counter space.
 
a 12 volt lead / acid battery is dead. At rest the battery should read 12.8 at full, 12.6 at 3/4, 12.4 at 1/4. You may need a more accurate voltmeter to tell the difference of when to charge. For most batteries if you pull them down to 50% for any period of time, you greatly reduce their life. So if you have a 100 amp hour battery, plan on only being able to use about 40 amp hours of that if you want any kind of battery life.
The amount of amps used at 120 volts is not the same as the amount of amps used at 12 volts. I did not see how many amps your fridge uses, but for illustration I will plug in some numbers.
Lets say at 120 volts the fridge uses 5 amps when running. 5 x 120 is 600 watts. Your inverter will be pulling 600+ watts out of the battery, (because nothing is 100% efficient). So 600 watts divided by 12 volts, you will be pulling 50 amps out of the battery. The inverter most likely has a cut out if the battery voltage gets too low. that is probably what is causing the intermittent output, ( battery voltage drops, inverter cuts out, the voltage of the battery no longer under a load raises, the inverter turns back on, etc.).
So your 100 amp hour battery will only have a fridge run time of 2 hours at the most, (50 amp draw at 12 volts for 2 hours. Probably a lot less). Don't believe me, charge the battery, open the door to the fridge and leave it open, turn on the fridge and a timer.
Watts is equal to volts times amps. It is also called power. 5 amps at 120 volts is the same power as 50 amps at 12 volts. The inverter does not create energy, it just converts it. It uses high amperage at low voltage to create low amperage at high voltage.
Your options are more batteries, run the vehicle engine once a day to charge the battery, or get a small generator that can power a battery charger. A 800 watt generator will run a 35 amp charger, and it will run at least 6 hours on a gallon of gas.
 
Refrigerator venting, overheating....and batteries.

Some findings and thoughts I'd like to share with the group as we unravel and distill this mystery.

The Dometic 110 refrigerator was factory installed with no exterior venting and a total of 15 sq. inches of interior venting. 2/3 of the 15" is at the bottom of the unit (convection be damned). If my measurements/metric conversions are correct, there is only 3" of clearance to the (unvented) back wall.

The Dometic/Waco installation manual (thanks 97Grandby) recommends 4" minimum of rear side clearance and 36 sq inches of exterior venting to be divided top and bottom promoting convection. Taken at face value, this current setup is woefully inadequate and could certainly be the smoking gun to both refrigerator and battery damage over three years of operation.

Meanwhile, testing the batteries individually off the refrigerator the last couple of days was interesting. Especially in light of how many affirmative conditioning reports have been made about them. One battery failed much quicker than the other and the fridge warning lite indicated overheating. Which raised yet another question about the battery system. Could the battery failure be partially due to an anomaly in the factory wiring of the charging circuit ?
Earlier in my research of this problem I noticed both charging input and loads were wired to only one of the two batteries. The second battery was essentially jumped from it rather than the 2 being linked in parallel then integrated as one battery. When questioned, the factory agreed this was not the best way and the circuit was reconfigured.
Is it possible the second battery may not have been been as throughly charged as the 1st battery over three years with this piggy back circuitry, perhaps creating a subtle but important imbalance between the two. Some of you more knowledgable about DC power may have some thoughts on this.
What a house of cards!
 
The venting of the compressor fridges has changed over the past few years by FWC.
I definitely agree that you probably need more ventilation to get the system to work correctly.

I would recommend placing a thermometer in the back compartment with the compressor of the fridge is at.
If the temperature is significantly higher than ambient temperature more venting would be a good call.

Check out 97grandby's recent work on putting a vent right above the fridge. I think this is ideal. You could increase the vent or add a fan to get more cooling if you needed it.

I think you may have found your bad battery. If it failed much sooner than the other one that is likely your issue.
I'd consider replacing it and maybe replacing both of them. Batteries do better when they are of similar age and size.

The charging of both batteries is probably more ideal is the flow of energy goes equally through them. The first setup you had was probably not ideal, but was probably ok. Lots of battery banks are setup the first way you mentioned and most of the time work fine.
It could have been the reason your battery failed. Who knows. There are lots of ways to ruin a battery - I've personally ruined a ton of batteries in all of my projects.
 
Thanks DannyB.
Forum contributions from the members has become a wonderful learning experience.
This RV stuff is new and although handy in many areas, I have but rudimentary knowledge of electricity, solar and refrigeration.
Much of my life has been spent winter mountaineering and summer backpacking. Fiinally, tired of crawling out of my tent to "P" I married and bought a 4WC. After years of research and a factory visit, I ordered a Hawk outfitted with luxuries I was ready for but too busy to build (or impatient) to build out myself.
In retrospect it was at least an ill informed decision. If one is going to backcountry RV you still need to know how things function.
Both to operate expensive equipment and for personal safety. We chose the Hawk because it suited our "adult" travel/camping aspersions and 4W appeared to produce a high quality product with attention to detail . $22,000 was luxurious a big hit for us and it was ready to roll! We have not regretted the purchase but now see that even with good planning and quality products, things can still go awry.
I'm concluding (my ignorance not withstanding) that the factory build-out was flawed. Oh the quality is there but the refrigerator was improperly installed without significant venting (according to the Dometic criteria), which in turn inhIbited the large refrigerator from proper cooling. The excessively heated compressor demanded more amperage than the inadequate solar panel/truck alternator charging package could deliver. Even in a day of full sun and 6-8 hours of driving. The silly LED 4 light monitor panel lulled us a into false security of the systems health and viability until it was too late.
Even though we've had numerous "pro" evaluations over the past 2 years to try and sparse out the problems. The feedback only served to confuse the issues. it has only been recent encounters with other 4 wheel campers and this forum to where I've begun to synthesize the veritable house of cards riding on our Tundra.

Yes it's been the batteries, yes it's the been the solar panel, yes it's been the venting. Maybe, oh no, not the efrigerator too?
A big financial nut about to bust here. Philosophically, we buy new equipment and upgrade, financially, we buy a $700 Honda generator and say "F" it.
 
My 2 cents. Venting may be a good idea but if it runs good for a full day I can't believe that's the problem. If the batteries are good then there is too much resistance between the fridge and the power source so the fridge is unable to draw enough current below a certain voltage to start the compressor. The starting amps are much higher than the running amps so the compressor tries to start and stalls which causes the system to shut down and then try to restart.

This just happened to me last week with my Dometic CF-18 compressor cooler. It ran fine for 6 days with 2.5 days of overcast, then it would try to start and stall at night, ran fine during the day. Voltage stayed above the low cutoff the whole time. When I wired it up I used an old 12 volt lighter outlet from my last camper with thin wire powered from the charge controller, my bad. Solution is to rewire it to run off the battery (fused of course) with 8 gauge wire which will substantially reduce voltage drop and allow it to draw enough amps at a lower voltage. Good luck with your issues.
 
Well, we're partly to blame. Many of the items such as the compressor fridges are in response to customer demand. When my FWC was new most of us couldn't afford one. What I'm trying to say is many of things we've done, like lift assists, solar, and fridges are relatively new and it takes time to work out the details. Lift assist mounting points are now more robust than at first. Solar systems are sized larger. Fridges are vented better. Its a learning curve and its rough to be a beta tester. If we'd just put up with a ice box so many problems would go away.
 
When the batteries are low they need current to recharge and lots of it. Voltage can be deceiving if there is not enough ummpf behind it to make it work.
Imagine filling a swimming pool with a garden hose. You see have water (voltage) flowing (current) in so all good right? Not really...... after a couple hours you need to use shut the hose off. Water now evaporates from your partially filled pool. No problem you have the hose back on and start filling again. Of course you have to replace the evaporated water to get you where you were when you shut the hose off and then you are adding more but drat you need to shut the hose off again. Pool is not getting filled up even though you have water flowing in every chance you get.....

Now imagine the same scenario with a fire truck hose.....
10 gauge wire is a garden hose......

If you are running solar 150w would be minimum for a fridge in my opinion. Same concept different water (voltage) source. I have heard folks who do well on 100watts of solar but much of that depends on availability of good sunlight. Anything less is just not going to work well. Extra solar panels will pay for themselves by keeping your batteries healthy much longer :)

You can use a small computer or "muffin" fan to move air over the coils of the fridge. I think Bill Harr has a mod on that. As long as it vents out it should help immensely. I'd vent it into the camper during the winter and out during the summer through some kind of filer to keep the dust down.

This is my take on the subject and I have been known to be wrong :)
 
craig333 said:
Well, we're partly to blame. Many of the items such as the compressor fridges are in response to customer demand. When my FWC was new most of us couldn't afford one. What I'm trying to say is many of things we've done, like lift assists, solar, and fridges are relatively new and it takes time to work out the details. Lift assist mounting points are now more robust than at first. Solar systems are sized larger. Fridges are vented better. Its a learning curve and its rough to be a beta tester. If we'd just put up with a ice box so many problems would go away.

Just measured the two outside vents on our 2-way Isotherm 130L in our '16 Hawk...upper vent opening [louvers] 17" x 7" and lower vent 17" x 6.5". The area behind the fridge and inside these vents is perhaps 3" deep and open between upper and lower vents...lots of venting..the bottom vent has a latch and is hinged at the top; why I don't know.

FYI from the manual: 12V system..shutdown "9.6 (10.4) V" and Start up " 10.9 (11.7) V" this is 'low voltage protection'.

"Instantaneous Consumption" [start up?] = "8 amps" and "Average Consumption" with +5C fridge temp and outside 25C in 24 hours is = 400 watts. [33.3 amps?].

Don't know when FWC started adding the external solar plug at back of Hawk for a portable solar panel plug in to "chase" the sun...our Zamp portable is 80w..but that is perhaps the easiest way to augment a 'too small' roof panel and also not rely on a horizontal panel during a solar period.

Phil
 
At some point we need to determine which elements best represent a problem and which can be taken as a supporting symptom. Admittedly I’m not well versed in electrical problems but many of you are and I’m merely trying to distill what I’ve been reading for the past few days into some sort of reconstructive plan so I can go fishing in Montana. OK, your ideas, comments and willingness to contribute to the problem solving process are fun too!

So, after reading the Waco/Dometic installation manual and info supplied by DannyB and 97Grandby, it’s clear that my particular fridge installation does not come close to meeting the minimum vent criteria. We have 15sq inches of interior venting, none of the specified 36” exterior venting and 3”, not 4” of rear spacing.

Wallowa (Phil) just wrote that his similar sized Isotherm has 229.5 Sq inches of rear venting!

Wouldn’t a reasonable mind conclude that the poor compressor needs room to breath? It probably cannot run consistently without overheating at some point. Especially when powered by a brushless motor.
Protection, somewhere in the system is likely trying to control the runaway amps and the system is on an endless run-stop cycle that quickly drains the already poorly charged batteries.
The batteries, having not been completely replenished each day by the insufficient solar and/or the trucks alternator, begin to loose capacity, compounded day after day, after day.

Isn’t it likely that first, that poor fridge needs to be vented?
Plenty of area, a fan and perhaps upgrade the supply wire to 8 gauge as BillM suggests.
Can’t hurt. Do it right and forget it.

And then there are the batteries. After testing them individually, with the refrigerator as the load, one drained noticeably faster then the other. Regardless that all tests previously performed by technicians’ were positive,
I think I must bite the bullet here and get two new ones. Starting afresh (Brands and particular battery types to be discussed later).
Lastly, increased solar power. Why not jump to 200 watts. We like extended trips, Often dry camp for days at a time and the sun does not always shine in the west.

Note: Now that we can monitor the batteries with the Tri-metric, there is the added benefit of an alarm warning of low power early enough to shut down or adjust ones electrical loads.

Ted
Terrapine Portlandia
 
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