Battleborn - charge settings

Helmut

Advanced Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
42
Location
South America
I am using the settings provided by Battleborn. At the moment I have more than enough sun, so the batteries are topped off every day. As far as I understand it would be best not to charge them over 80% (unless needed or maybe once every couple of weeks). What setting can I use best?
Victron 30amp set to 14.6 Volts absorb and 13.5 Volts constant.
Is it normal for two 160 watt panels (series) two get Pmax of more than 350 W?
Thanks for any advice
 
rando and craig are more the battery/lithium experts, but I am using lower settings than those... 14.2v absorb, 13.2v float. I understand that tops the batteries at around 90% and the low float value means that they don't actually float at all, which is what you want.

The voltage drop of a lithium battery is so flat, I'm not sure you could reliably find a "80%" value to set it at.
 
A panel's Pmax rating is based on a lab 'standard' for what may be considered normal operating conditions, which is essentially a non real-world condition. Under the right orientation, tilt, irradiance and temperature conditions a panel's real-world Pmax could exceed it's listed rating. So, is it normal for two 160W solar panels to top 350 Watts? Possibly, if you are sitting in the optimal solar sweet spot. But you wouldn't see those conditions on a regular basis year round unless you were, say, at the Equator and never saw a cloud in the sky and parked in a totally unobstructed site with the panel's cells lined up perfectly for maximum output. And that's why Pmax and other ratings are provided with typical, optimal-average operating conditions in mind, as opposed to atypical, theoretical best case lab scenarios.


...Is it normal for two 160 watt panels (series) two get Pmax of more than 350 W?


Also, in the case of Battle Born LiFePOs, the company techs suggest that your battery should receive an adequate charge on a regular basis. It doesn't need to be seeing 14.4-14.6 V every day, but they do suggest reaching that level at least once a week or so, unless the battery is in long-term storage. And of course you wouldn't stay at 14.6 V in absorption for long if your batteries were topped up all the time. You might find that you would only stay at that level for one minute if you already had a high SOC (90-100%), before the voltage began to taper off down to 13.6 V or 13.2 in its resting state, I have a floating set point of 13.5, but after the battery leaves absorption and enters float it will tend to hover at around 14.2, more or less, until the end of the charging cycle, when the sun goes down. I'm using a Victron 100/30 mppt controller and those are real numbers in my setup. Solar charging conditions are pretty fluid, with lots of fluctuations in voltage, which is actually pretty healthy for a battery. I'd rather be charging my battery using solar vs. plugged into an AC charger and constantly hovering in float mode. I've got two 160 W panels and use the BB recommendations for bulk, absorbtion and float set points. Those set points are not destroying my battery performance. They actually work pretty well. This may be an overly simplistic way to think about it, but it's like eat when you can (or top it off when you can in the case of solar) - you never know when it might be your last meal for a while.

Rich
 
Thanks for the info so far! Actually I am at the equator, so almost floating with full batteries most of the time. No missunderstanding Li batteries can and are to be charged full to 100%. I just read somewhere its best for their health to be in a charging state of 60 to 80 %. I have no idea if this is of any real worl relevance.
 
The 60-80% value I have read before is about long term storage... no need to be FULL, just 60% or so and they will be good for months.
 
BB recommends, for long-term storage of their batteries, charge to 100% and then disconnect the wires. I never do that though. I just let the Victron control the solar charge. I leave the camper outdoors year round and never plug in. During our overcast, dim winter, it stays topped off unless we're out camping and running normal loads, then we have to rely on the sun to make an appearance and short of that, run the B2B for a while when under way and then its topped up once again. Seems like these batteries are resilient and not too particular about charging routines.

Rich
 
For me, this is the most difficult thing about LifePO4 batteries. You have so many variables you can set (assuming you have a BMS and a Victron DC-toDC charger).

I'm still adjusting my values and not sure if they are totally correct or not but they seem to be working. You also have the question of which takes precedence ; the BMS or charger (ie. which values should be allowed to control the battery before turning off charging?).
 
kmcintyre said:
You also have the question of which takes precedence ; the BMS or charger (ie. which values should be allowed to control the battery before turning off charging?).
The BB BMS will have precedence and turn off charging if it detects a danger to the battery, for example, an internal battery temp of less than 24 degrees F. Other than that, why would you want to set the parameters to turn off charging, assuming you are using a reliable smart charger that is compatible with a LiFePO4 battery? Just curious.

Rich
 
The settings in the built in BMS are usually designed to prevent rapid damage, not to provide the optimized values. Think of them more as circuit breakers than regulators, they trip to prevent damage, but that usually means something else is not right. In generally use, your BMS shouldn't really need to do anything as the rest of your equipment is providing the 'optimized' values that are well away from the BMS values. So set 'optimized' values on your charger (which I would argue would be a bulk charge around 14V, float around 13.3V) then set 'oh sh#$#t' values on the BMS, max voltage 14.5V, min voltage 11.5V, min temp -5C etc.

As for charging the battery, there is really no great way to stop the charge at 80%, and to some degree no reason to do so. However charging above 14V doesn't buy you much of any extra capacity and drives your cells out of balance.

On my LifePO4 install I can monitor the individual cell voltages, and what I have noticed is that during charging, once the battery voltage gets above ~3.45 - 3.5V per cell (13.8 - 14.0V for the pack) the battery is almost fully charged (~ 95% SOC based on the BMV and BMS) and at this point what mostly happens is that the cells get out of balance - that is some end up at 3.53V while others are at 3.47V. Below this they all stay very well balanced, typically less than 10mv between cells, so I typically cut the charge off at 13.8V, or 14.0V if I expect to be using the batteries hard.

As for the charge for storage - there is some evidence that storing lithium batteries fully charged slightly shortens their lifetime, thus the recommendation to store at 30 - 60% SOC. On the flip side, the same studies said storage temperature had a much greater effect. Secondly, if you have a built in 'dumb' BMS (like battleborn) then it is always drawing a little bit of current from the batteries, and by starting at 100% SOC, you have more time before the BMS draws the batteries down too low, albeit this is probably years.
 
rando said:
The settings in the built in BMS are usually designed to prevent rapid damage, not to provide the optimized values. Think of them more as circuit breakers than regulators, they trip to prevent damage, but that usually means something else is not right. In generally use, your BMS shouldn't really need to do anything as the rest of your equipment is providing the 'optimized' values that are well away from the BMS values...

...On my LifePO4 install I can monitor the individual cell voltages, and what I have noticed is that during charging, once the battery voltage gets above ~3.45 - 3.5V per cell (13.8 - 14.0V for the pack) the battery is almost fully charged (~ 95% SOC based on the BMV and BMS) and at this point what mostly happens is that the cells get out of balance - that is some end up at 3.53V while others are at 3.47V. Below this they all stay very well balanced, typically less than 10mv between cells, so I typically cut the charge off at 13.8V, or 14.0V if I expect to be using the batteries hard....
Rando, I like your BMS circuit breaker analogy. Well put. Also, you appear to have a more sophisticated feedback and monitoring system in place, to help analyze performance. Did you custom build these capabilities into your LiFePo4 and which meter(s) are you using to read these measurements?

Rich
 
ramblinChet said:
Over the past 1.5 years I have been charging my BB using a C-TEK MUS 4.3 and nothing else. Once fully charged I will disconnect and when I head out to camp withing several weeks or sometimes months my SOC is quite often at 99%. I will go out for usually 4-5 days although I have been out for 21 days straight with no recharging at all. The only current drawn is for my 80 L National Luna.
ramblinChet - I have a 45qt Engel fridge-freezer, which I run on the most minimal energy-efficient setting, for keeping food cool enough to not go bad for a week, and to have a cold beer on a hot day. The very best I can do in the summer is average 0.75 amps/hr or 18 amp/hrs/day. With a 100 AH LiFePO4 battery, fully charged, I have gone 4-5 days without a solar or B2B charge (I was parked in the forest under a heavy tree canopy with no sun), while running my wildly-efficient Engel 45, 24/7. How were you able to get 21 days without any recharging of any kind, while running your 80L National Luna without a 400 AH battery bank? What's the secret to your success? : )

Rich
 
rando said:
The settings in the built in BMS are usually designed to prevent rapid damage, not to provide the optimized values. Think of them more as circuit breakers than regulators, they trip to prevent damage, but that usually means something else is not right. In generally use, your BMS shouldn't really need to do anything as the rest of your equipment is providing the 'optimized' values that are well away from the BMS values. So set 'optimized' values on your charger (which I would argue would be a bulk charge around 14V, float around 13.3V) then set 'oh sh#$#t' values on the BMS, max voltage 14.5V, min voltage 11.5V, min temp -5C etc.

As for charging the battery, there is really no great way to stop the charge at 80%, and to some degree no reason to do so. However charging above 14V doesn't buy you much of any extra capacity and drives your cells out of balance.

On my LifePO4 install I can monitor the individual cell voltages, and what I have noticed is that during charging, once the battery voltage gets above ~3.45 - 3.5V per cell (13.8 - 14.0V for the pack) the battery is almost fully charged (~ 95% SOC based on the BMV and BMS) and at this point what mostly happens is that the cells get out of balance - that is some end up at 3.53V while others are at 3.47V. Below this they all stay very well balanced, typically less than 10mv between cells, so I typically cut the charge off at 13.8V, or 14.0V if I expect to be using the batteries hard.

As for the charge for storage - there is some evidence that storing lithium batteries fully charged slightly shortens their lifetime, thus the recommendation to store at 30 - 60% SOC. On the flip side, the same studies said storage temperature had a much greater effect. Secondly, if you have a built in 'dumb' BMS (like battleborn) then it is always drawing a little bit of current from the batteries, and by starting at 100% SOC, you have more time before the BMS draws the batteries down too low, albeit this is probably years.
Good analogy! The system I built uses a DC-to-DC charger and BMS that are totally configurable so I'll have to check the values again. We're getting ready to head out on a long road / camping trip so it'll be interesting to watch the values.
 
rando said:
I recently built my own LifePO4 battery system, etc. with new cells, BMS and DC-to-DC charger. If anyone would like my "cheat sheet" send me your email. It's really where I sourced my cells, etc. with some links, etc. There are some great sources of info (overwhelming) and my write-up may or may not help but it'll get you going. BTW, to build my 120ah battery pack, etc. with an "expensive" DC-to-DC charger was about $460. The charger was about $164 of that total so it can be done fairly inexpensively and not really that difficult.
 
kmcintyre said:
I recently built my own LifePO4 battery system, etc. with new cells, BMS and DC-to-DC charger. If anyone would like my "cheat sheet" send me your email. It's really where I sourced my cells, etc. with some links, etc. There are some great sources of info (overwhelming) and my write-up may or may not help but it'll get you going. BTW, to build my 120ah battery pack, etc. with an "expensive" DC-to-DC charger was about $460. The charger was about $164 of that total so it can be done fairly inexpensively and not really that difficult.
Once again, very cool, and inexpensive by comparison. Interested to learn how it goes afer your long road trip.
 
ri-f said:
Once again, very cool, and inexpensive by comparison. Interested to learn how it goes afer your long road trip.
I'll let you know. We've used it on a few 3-4 days trips and no issues. Still dialing in the charging, etc. but no issues so far. This trip will be longer and taking my solar panels w/ LifePO4 controller as we'll be off the grid the whole time and not moving much.
 
ramblinChet said:
...The 21-day excursion I spoke of earlier stretched from mid-December into early January with a wide range of temperatures. It was quite chilly most of the time and there were nights where we dipped into the teens...
Okay, gotcha. I was thinking you had to be in winter conditions with that low amp/hr average, where the fridge doesn't see a large temp differential and hardly cycles. Nice. Thanks for that. Your hot weather stats are more in line with the typical efficiency curves. Still, it appears from your description to be a very efficient fridge and a great combo with the BB. I get similar performance with the Engel and BB - no complaints..

Rich
 
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