Charge controller won't stay in float

[radarcontact]

So I'm camped tonight. Drove about 2.5 hours today, sunny. When I left home battery voltage was around 13.7 and doing its cycling thing from float to absorption. It's almost dark now and my voltage is 12.4. Two lights and my frig are the load. Essentially no PV input now. I started the truck to see if it would do some charging, but from what I'm seeing it isn't. It's been idling now for 10 min, and battery voltage is still 12.4. Is that normal? I have a Sure Power 1314A separator. Don't think it's related to my original problem, but not sure.

 

[radarcontact]

Something weird going on... A minute ago my net battery amperage was -4.5A, meaning that the battery was putting out 4.5A to power a load. Only thing using juice was my two overhead lights.... Frig wasn't running at the time. Engine still idling. I just noticed the net battery amperage has dropped, to -0.5A, which would be about the normal load without the frig running... Now I'm wondering if battery separator is sending camper battery amperage to the truck battery.... I thought the 1314A was uni directional, from truck to camper only. Confused.

 

[radarcontact]

Final update for anyone still reading this ridiculous blog.... Still idling engine, almost 20 min now. Batt voltage has risen, to 12.6. Load is correct, about 0.5A. So it appears the engine battery is charging the camper batteries slowly. Still not sure why the camper battery was giving off almost 5A earlier. Only thing I can think of is that it was charging the truck battery temporarily... I'll never figure this s#i+ out.

 

[pvstoy]

Just this week you mentioned you had a spare separator to try and don't remember the out come. But there is two battery attachments and the truck battery needs to be on the proper post along with the camper side needs to be on the proper lug. There is a ground wire I believe needs to be attached. Check the post and ground wire to see if they went back on the proper lugs.

 

[pvstoy]

12.6 volts is too low to see coming of the truck alternator. When the separator makes connection you will have truck and camper battery connected and you should see what the alternator is putting out for volts. If your truck battery is being charged by the alternator say around 14.5 volts then when the separator connects you should see ~14.5 volts on your camper battery, minus some for loss in length of wire loss.

Remember there is a minimum voltage on the camper battery's that won't allow the separator to connect.

 

[Vic Harder]

All helpful responses, thanks to everyone. Last time I took my AGM batteries to a local place that said they were the end-all in battery testing they were wrong....they said they were fine, but the batteries were bad. But, I will test them more thoroughly. Paul, that's a great idea. I'll probably take them to our local CC and see what they say.

Jax, I was thinking the same thing...still wondering if my IOTA is butting heads with my controller. I'm going up to Yellowstone tomorrow and will have the camper off landline for a couple days, so I'll see if that makes a difference.

Craig, the one part of your post regarding the absorption charge time.....I have a compatible battery monitor that comes from Blue Sky, IPN Pro Remote. It communicates w/the controller continuously. One of the settings on the monitor is absorption charge time measured by current vs. time, which is called 'Float Transition Current' on the monitor....once the current drops below 1.5A per 100 Ah of battery capacity (or whatever you set it for, this is adjustable), the controller goes from absorption to float. I left the setting on factory default (1.5/100Ah), and my Ah capacity is 230Ah, so it transitions when the current drops below 3.45A. Supposedly it's a better way of transitioning, instead of doing a standard 4 hours of absorption, or whatever the time parameter is. In theory it makes sense, but have no idea how efficient it is in practice.

pv...I couldn't do the swap-out of my 12V truck battery. My connections from the controller to my 6V batteries are via the screw-on 1/2 in. threaded post....my truck battery only has the fatter terminals. I don't have any adapters, so I couldn't do it today.

PVSTOY is asking a lot of good questions. Mine is around this transition current. On my Victron gear, this is labeled the "tail current" and I have it set at .7% of AH = 1.61Amps for your batteries. 3.45A as a transition into float sounds way to high to me, and I suspect your batteries may actually need to be in absorb mode if they are still accepting that much juice.

 

[Old Crow]

Final update for anyone still reading this ridiculous blog.... Still idling engine, almost 20 min now. Batt voltage has risen, to 12.6. Load is correct, about 0.5A. So it appears the engine battery is charging the camper batteries slowly. Still not sure why the camper battery was giving off almost 5A earlier. Only thing I can think of is that it was charging the truck battery temporarily... I'll never figure this s#i+ out.

You may want to take a read through DrJ's experience (if you've not already done so) in replacing the 1314A with a Blue Seas unit in this Automatic Charge Relay thread. There are a few more photos in this Truck Camper Magazine version of the same info (at mod #5).

If it turns out further monitoring of your 1314A satisfies you that it's working properly, fine. If not, DrJs info may give you a path forward and give you other factors to consider.

.

 

[craig333]

Another reason not to use a seperator. If its wired correctly disconnect it and see what happens. Bypass it and see what happens.

 

[radarcontact]

Read all the prior responses, thanks to everyone for your time. Wanted to update you on what's going on....

Received the third controller from Blue Sky, installed it. Initially, it seemed to be functioning the way it's supposed to. Went into bulk mode for awhile, then absorption, then float. When it went to float the amps out started around 1.5A, then gradually decreased little by little over the next hour or so to around 0.3-0.4A. Stayed in float the whole time. Battery voltage went from 14.0 down to 13.8. I have my float set point at 13.5V, so I would suspect it would keep decreasing down to just above that point, had I let it. In any case, everything seemed to be working ok. I had to put some electrical tape on some rooftop connections which required me to disconnect my rooftop plug for a couple minutes. Did that and reconnected. When I did, everything went back to the way it was with the other two controllers...0.0A out in float, won't stay in float, endless cycling back and forth from float to absorption. My conclusion is that it's not my equipment, because everything seemingly was operating correctly initially. When PV power was lost, and restored, all the problems started happening. I think there's something in the programming of this controller that gets out of whack when it loses power and subsequently has it restored. I recall that the second controller did the same thing, worked fine initially. Lost power that night bec. of no sunlight. Next morning, not staying in float. Any additional thoughts you all might have would be appreciated. I'm ready to blow up my system, sick of this whole mess.

**Vic, I will set the parameter as you suggest, report back.

Also wanted to add....when I sent the original controller back to Blue Sky and they bench-tested it, they said it was fine. Nothing blown or out of whack.

 

[radarcontact]

Vic, did as you suggested....the controller stayed in absorption longer, but as soon as it switched to float mode the amps out dropped rapidly to 0.0A, just like before. I even lowered the transition current parameter further, from 1.61 to 1.0A for my batteries....only change was that it stayed in absorption mode longer. Still wouldn't float. I can't understand for the life of me why this controller won't send out any amperage in float mode. No amperage out causes it to fall back to absorption mode every time. Maybe I need a different brand controller.....but others have been happy w/this brand. Lost cause.

 

[Vic Harder]

Vic, did as you suggested....the controller stayed in absorption longer, but as soon as it switched to float mode the amps out dropped rapidly to 0.0A, just like before. I even lowered the transition current parameter further, from 1.61 to 1.0A for my batteries....only change was that it stayed in absorption mode longer. Still wouldn't float. I can't understand for the life of me why this controller won't send out any amperage in float mode. No amperage out causes it to fall back to absorption mode every time. Maybe I need a different brand controller.....but others have been happy w/this brand. Lost cause.

Well, that has to be a major bummer.

Something strange is going on, especially since:
1) Two controllers worked fine until disconnected from solar power
2) At least one was bench tested afterwards and passed.

Makes me suspect a "factory reset" of some-kind happened during power loss. Also wondering about how the controller is wired if it loses all power during darkness. The controllers should still have power provided to them then. I have a vague recollection from when I did all the R&D before buying my components that some controllers DO actually do de-power at night. I chose not to buy that brand.

The change to tail-current I suggested seems to affect the controller as expected. Tail current is one way the controller has of judging when to leave absorb mode and go into float. NOT charging in float is bizarre though.

 

[Vic Harder]

... Just got through reading your 3000i manual. I note on page 3 these warnings:

The 3000i operates on battery power, not PV power. Insure that voltage on the battery terminals of the 3000i is always the same as actual battery voltage within a few 10ths of a volt and greater than 9 volts for proper operation. Note that the front panel serves as a heatsink for power control devices and may become quite warm during normal operation.

CAUTION: Do not disconnect the battery while the 3000i is in a Charge ON state. A healthy battery is a key component of the charge voltage control system and provides charge voltage filtering. Sudden removal of the battery while the 3000i is charging will produce voltage spikes at the 3000i’s battery terminals which may damage 12 volt appliances still connected to the 3000i, especially when using higher voltage 60 cell PV modules.
IF THE BATTERY MUST BE DISCONNECTED, REMOVE PV POWER FIRST.

I hate to ask, but I do wonder if you have the PV and battery terminals wired to the right spots?

Also, using the Float Transition Current setting seems to require that you have the optional IPN-ProRemote display and battery system monitor. I can't recall if you have this?

There is also a setting to turn the controller into a two stage controller, by turning OFF the Float Charge Voltage.

And there is also a procedure to reset to factory defaults. I would try that too.

 

[Old Crow]

If you've not already done it, I'd disconnect the Iota and 1314A (remove positive-line fuses or cable ends at the battery).... and disconnect the battery monitor and shunt and the ProRemote display... even if you're convinced they're not involved. Get that controller working, then add back. If that doesn't do it, eliminate camper wiring too.

An alternative way to get started would be to buy the battery cable ends with the marine or clamp-down cable-end attachment points and wire the controller to a spare battery (like the truck battery mentioned earlier). And run separate wires from the panels (don't forget the polarity swap!) before doing anything with the camper.

Good luck to you, radarcontact, I know it's frustrating.

.

 

[radarcontact]

Thank you guys. I've enlisted the help of an electrical engineer/mechanical enginner/computer programmer friend of mine who likes puzzles.

Vic...to you queries:

1 - yeah, I always disconnect PV power first. Read that in the manual
2 - wires are wired to the correct terminals on the controller
3 - I do have the IPN Pro Remote. It's required if you want the controller to charge via Float Transition Current vs. Absorption time (~4 hrs.) I didn't want the batteries overcharging every time I took the truck out of the garage for 4 hours in high mode, so I got the Pro Remote. Plus, it's a battery monitor similar to the one you have.

Old Crow.....my EE friend and I are doing exactly what you suggest. I've disconnected PV and battery connections to the controller. I've disconnected the Pro Remote battery monitor from the controller. I've disconnected the wires for the battery temperature sensor monitor from the controller. Tomorrow I will disconnect the battery separator and make sure the IOTA is off. Nothing will be connected to the controller. I've also put a load on the batteries, frig and lights, to draw them down a little, though they're pretty strong....just checked them and they're holding 12.6V for the last few hours....just want them to go down a little so we can get some good charging when we reconnect tomorrow....the plan is to connect the controller first to the battery, then to PV power, and see what happens. Before I connect PV power, when I connect the controller to the battery, I plan on doing a factory reset of the controller (wish I had done that before I disconnected today, but I don't think it will matter, as long as I do it before connecting PV power). My feeling is that the controller will float eventually, just like it did this morning when I hooked it up fresh out of the box. If it does float, we're not sure of the next step, but certainly going to do things one at a time to try and isolate the problem. Will update when I have more info. Thanks everyone.

**OldCrow....going to bypass the shunt as well. Thanks for mentioning that...want to make this test as 'pure' as possible, no additional stuff to muddy the results.

**pv...wanted to tell you I appreciate all your input as well. I haven't load-tested the batteries yet, as I feel that's not the likely problem, since the controller has floated on rare occasion, and the batteries appear to be holding voltage. However I know your suggestion is a good one, and I plan on testing the batteries if my current line of testing is fruitless. My enginner friend is knowledgeable enough that he can test the microprocessor in the controller to see how it's acting.....! Way beyond my pay grade, and hopefully we won't have to go that deep....

 

[radarcontact]

Wanted to update for anyone still reading this....

I disconnected everything from my controller except the PV input and batteries. Set the controller to factory defaults and reconnected (factory default absorption time is 2 hours). Reconnected batteries and PV input. Controller eventually floated after 2+ hours...good.

Next step...increased absorption and float set points in the controller to 14.5V and 13.5V, respectively. Also changed absorption time to 0.5 hours. Disconnected PV/batteries and reconnected same. Controller eventually floated. So, seems good so far.

Next step....disconnected PV/batteries, connected thermocouple (battery temperature sensor monitor). Reconnected batteries/PV. Controller wouldn't float after a few hours. So, disconnected PV/batteries, disconnected thermocouple, and reconnected batteries and PV input, just as I had it before the thermocouple. After an hour WON'T FLOAT, tries to float but no amperage going to battery. Switches back to absorption and starts the endless cycle....

There's no rhyme or reason to this. Nothing I do results in repeatable, reliable data. Sometimes, under the SAME CONDITIONS, it works right, sometimes it doesn't. I can only conclude that there's something in the programming of this brand of controller that won't mesh with my equipment. My engineer friend is going to look at the unit, but not hopeful he'll find anything that would be of use to me.

Unless something unexpected happens in the near future, I'll probably end up junking the controller and monitor and buying a Victron. Pretty costly adventure. I'll post if anything changes for those interested.

 

[Vic Harder]

strange.

Have you tried resetting to factory defaults, skipping the change to the settings and then connecting the thermocouple?

Also, why are you setting the aborb time so short? I think I have mine at 8 hours.

Finally, what temperature does the thermocouple report? What is the temp compensation set at?

 

[radarcontact]

strange.

Have you tried resetting to factory defaults, skipping the change to the settings and then connecting the thermocouple?

Also, why are you setting the aborb time so short? I think I have mine at 8 hours.

Finally, what temperature does the thermocouple report? What is the temp compensation set at?

I've tried every configuration I can think of....but nothing is repeatable.

I shortened the absorb time today so that I could do these 'tests' without waiting all day for the controller to go to float.....the batteries were charged when I've started testing them daily. Don't see a need to run absorp. time longer than need be, as there hasn't been a load on the batteries for several days now, and they've been charging in the sun every day, for at least two hours in absorption mode (and bulk mode prior to absorption). I originally left everything under default settings, then switched the two set points mentioned above.

If I reconnected the battery monitor now, it would stay in absorp. mode for maybe 5 min, then switch to float, because it bases the float transition point on current vs. time, as we've discussed. That alone tells me that the batteries are charged.

Per your suggestion, I'll reset the controller to default settings and see when I connect the thermocouple if it floats. I can't get a temp. reading on the thermocouple unless I reconnect the battery monitor, but last time all was connected it read about 63F. Ambient temp here in Wyoming today is 63F.

 

[radarcontact]

Finally made some progress on my controller issue. Received third controller from Blue Sky, but acted the same as the previous two.

When I disconnected the battery separator I simply unplugged the camper exterior plug from the truck bed, as the connection between the engine battery and the separator runs through there. However, I didn't initially disconnect anything at the separator. Upon close examination of the separator it appears that FWC wired my positive connection from the camper battery to the circuit panel/camper loads through the aux. post on the separator, instead of a separate line. Electrically, that may work, but something was going on there, because when I disconnected those connections from the separator and made a more direct connection from battery to loads, the controller started acting differently. I've since rewired the separator the correct way (according to schematics), and things seem to be much improved.

I also set the Float Transition current in my battery monitor/remote controller to ~0.4A/100Ah, which has resulted in a more gradual, longer transition from absorption mode to float. I think the algorithm in my controller needs the time to 'figure out' exactly what's going on w/my system, and when/how to float.

So, much better conditions now. Not sure if I've solved the problem. Time will tell. Thanks to everyone who contributed! This is a great forum. Tapping into the expertise of so many knowledgeable folks here and throwing around ideas is key to solving problems.

 

[Vic Harder]

a rough sketch of the wiring before and after would be nice. Curious minds want to understand wtf was going on....

(That's Wander the Forest... what were YOU thinking?)

 

[radarcontact]

a rough sketch of the wiring before and after would be nice. Curious minds want to understand wtf was going on....

(That's Wander the Forest... what were YOU thinking?)

Vic...here's a rough (very rough) sketch of what I'm talking about. The top one is what FWC had wired up....the bottom one is what I did. There is a 30A Pollak circuit breaker in between the battery and the separator that FWC put there....for simplicity I omitted the breaker, so you could see the basic setup and connections.