and this made a difference? strange. can you trace/see the wires to confirm there is nothing else in the circuit path?
Charge controller won't stay in float
- Thread starter radarcontact
- Start date
radarcontact
Senior Member
It definitely made a difference. Not sure why. Unfortunately, I can't trace the wires behind the cabinet. There's an area from the camper battery to the separator I can't see. Electrically, it probably shouldn't have made a difference...but I can tell you for certain that when I removed ALL wires from the separator (i.e., after I disconnected the engine battery from the separator) and took it completely out of the equation, the controller behaved differently.Vic Harder said:
I'm not sure if I've solved the problem. It's going to be one of those situations where I'll have to observe over time and see what happens. The last two days have been good...controller is floating as it should. As I mentioned before, I believe the algorithm for this component (probably the same for other controllers' microprocessors) needs time to learn a system. Your suggestion of reducing the float transition current setpoint is allowing the controller to stay in absorption mode longer. That longer period, I think, is allowing the controller to figure things out, as well as pump some additional amperage into the battery before it tries to float.
I'll continue to monitor and look for changes and problems. Thanks again for your good help.
Forgot to mention....when I attach the thermocouple, the controller still has trouble floating at times...it wants to float at a higher voltage than 13.5V. The thermocouple wasn't the major problem, though...I've tested the system with and without it, and was getting the poor results in either case prior to removing the separator. My EE friend has a multimeter with an attachment that can sense current in the thermocouple - he thought there might be a problem w/it, Blue Sky is sending me a new one...along w/a replacement battery monitor, just to make sure there's no issue w/the controller/monitor interface. They've been a very good company to work with, and want to help me resolve this issue.
radarcontact
Senior Member
Anyone still reading this blog....I solved my problem today, finally....over a month of frustration. And the solution, as you would expect, was simple.
To Vic and everyone else who were puzzled by what I thought was my 'solution', you were right - the battery separator et al wasn't the solution. Tricked me, because everything seemed to work right after I rewired the separator, but soon enough everything went back to haywire. Controller wouldn't float.
Went back to the most basic connection, for the nth time. PV----------->controller------------------>battteries. Nothing else. Used alternate wiring for this connection, from both PV to controller, and controller to batteries. Still wouldn't float. My conclusions were:
1) PV panels are faulty/shorting. Checked voltage at each panel, OK.
2) controller is faulty - not likely, as this was the third one Blue Sky sent me.
3) batteries. Brand new, but maybe one was bad...?
So, as some of you advised here, I went out and bought a hydrometer. Checked voltage at each battery, 6.43V, identical. Checked specific gravity with hydrometer, all cells good.
I hooked up the controller to my truck battery...controller worked like a champ. NO PROBLEMS. So, what to do?
My conclusion at this point was that, for some reason, the controller wasn't playing well with two 6V batteries in series, as it seemed to be very happy w/my 12V truck battery. Why?
Don't ask me why I never considered this as a problem, but I took a look at my series wire, i.e., the - to + wire connecting the two batteries. It's only a foot long - but when I looked at it, I noticed that the GAUGE wasn't all that big. Looks like 8 AWG. I didn't install that connecting wire, BTW....an RV guy did it here in Jackson when he was fooling around w/my electrical last year, and sold me these batteries.
So, I ran over to NAPA and bought a heavy gauge (4 AWG) battery wire, 12 in long. Couldn't be that simple, right? Well, call me a dumbass for screwing around w/this over the last month or so and not thinking about the gauge of that wire, because, as soon as I installed it and reconnected everything, it worked like it should.
Want to thank everyone who pushed me to pay more attention to the BATTERIES....should have listened to you guys. When in series, use a heavy gauge wire to connect the batteries. Lesson learned LOL.
To Vic and everyone else who were puzzled by what I thought was my 'solution', you were right - the battery separator et al wasn't the solution. Tricked me, because everything seemed to work right after I rewired the separator, but soon enough everything went back to haywire. Controller wouldn't float.
Went back to the most basic connection, for the nth time. PV----------->controller------------------>battteries. Nothing else. Used alternate wiring for this connection, from both PV to controller, and controller to batteries. Still wouldn't float. My conclusions were:
1) PV panels are faulty/shorting. Checked voltage at each panel, OK.
2) controller is faulty - not likely, as this was the third one Blue Sky sent me.
3) batteries. Brand new, but maybe one was bad...?
So, as some of you advised here, I went out and bought a hydrometer. Checked voltage at each battery, 6.43V, identical. Checked specific gravity with hydrometer, all cells good.
I hooked up the controller to my truck battery...controller worked like a champ. NO PROBLEMS. So, what to do?
My conclusion at this point was that, for some reason, the controller wasn't playing well with two 6V batteries in series, as it seemed to be very happy w/my 12V truck battery. Why?
Don't ask me why I never considered this as a problem, but I took a look at my series wire, i.e., the - to + wire connecting the two batteries. It's only a foot long - but when I looked at it, I noticed that the GAUGE wasn't all that big. Looks like 8 AWG. I didn't install that connecting wire, BTW....an RV guy did it here in Jackson when he was fooling around w/my electrical last year, and sold me these batteries.
So, I ran over to NAPA and bought a heavy gauge (4 AWG) battery wire, 12 in long. Couldn't be that simple, right? Well, call me a dumbass for screwing around w/this over the last month or so and not thinking about the gauge of that wire, because, as soon as I installed it and reconnected everything, it worked like it should.
Want to thank everyone who pushed me to pay more attention to the BATTERIES....should have listened to you guys. When in series, use a heavy gauge wire to connect the batteries. Lesson learned LOL.
pvstoy
Senior Member
.radarcontact said:
.
Electrical problems ARE one of the hardest things to trouble shoot and fix. It can be a vast amount of possibilities and one needs to work at it in a patiently way.
So glad you have a fix to your long battle!!! Thanks for sharing the possible fix as others can learn from you.
Hard to believe that 8 gauge wire that short would mess with the system unless the cable had a short inside or bad terminal ends... could you have a look at it? Attach a OHM meter to both ends and twist it around and see if the OHMS go off zero.
Make sure all your positive and negative attachments are attached to the post that does not have the series jumper cable as in the picture.
.
radarcontact
Senior Member
Patrick....I will have another look at the wire in the next few days, and report back - not home at the moment, and that's where the old wire is. I want to double check the gauge as well.
Pardon me for sounding like an idiot (I'm really not, but haven't messed w/EE stuff for a long time til now), but tell me exactly what/how you want me to test the wire...? Reconnect it to the batteries, and how do I test it w/my voltmeter? I've checked volts and amps w/it, but not resistance. Thanks!
Pardon me for sounding like an idiot (I'm really not, but haven't messed w/EE stuff for a long time til now), but tell me exactly what/how you want me to test the wire...? Reconnect it to the batteries, and how do I test it w/my voltmeter? I've checked volts and amps w/it, but not resistance. Thanks!
pvstoy
Senior Member
Sure no worries,
Put you volt meter selection on the 20k OHM selection. When you do you will see like 1 . On the display. When you touch the probe ends together you will see 0.00 on the display.
Put a end of the meter on each end of the battery wire ends. You can use closepins binder clip or tape to keep them there as you do the next step
You should see the meter showing again 0.00 as it should just be a extension of the probes. If not there is a short.
Now grab one end and the wire next to it and tug in and out and watch the meter to see if the numbers go off of 0.00. Do the other end
Now grab near both ends and twist pull, push the wire and note if at any time it goes off 0.00. This will show if the wire has broken strands inside the wire casing.
Put you volt meter selection on the 20k OHM selection. When you do you will see like 1 . On the display. When you touch the probe ends together you will see 0.00 on the display.
Put a end of the meter on each end of the battery wire ends. You can use closepins binder clip or tape to keep them there as you do the next step
You should see the meter showing again 0.00 as it should just be a extension of the probes. If not there is a short.
Now grab one end and the wire next to it and tug in and out and watch the meter to see if the numbers go off of 0.00. Do the other end
Now grab near both ends and twist pull, push the wire and note if at any time it goes off 0.00. This will show if the wire has broken strands inside the wire casing.
radarcontact
Senior Member
Will do, thanks, will report back. Want to double-check the gauge of the wire...I was amped up about replacing it, so I might have mis-gauged it, it might be a 10 AWG. But I'll find out. After I do the resistance test I'll cut it and see if the copper (if that's what's in it LOL) is the gauge that matches the insulation.
pvstoy
Senior Member
If the gauge is too thin then it would have a problem for those big 6 volt batteries talking to each other in series That would delay the flow and the controller would see one voltage and then as the battery's equalize the controller would see different voltage. And perhaps is where your endless cycle loop was created.
I like this theory.pvstoy said:
Only way to know for sure is to make up a new wire of an even smaller gauge (to exacerbate the problem) and try it.
radarcontact
Senior Member
Well, as the saying goes, if it's too good to be true....
Pulled camper out of garage this AM, and it went back to its cycling thing.
Hard to figure, as yesterday it performed flawlessly for hours after I replaced that wire. I changed settings in the controller on the fly, it responded perfectly. No problems. Today, back to square one.
Has to be 1)a battery is bad, though they both checked out fine, or 2) the controller just doesn't like dealing with 2 6V batts in series.
Temp was warm here yesterday, but cold this AM...don't know if that has anything to do with it.
I'm done with this for now. Too much wasted time invested, with no consistent results. Out of options to try. Thanks for the support, much appreciated, even though the results weren't favorable.
Pulled camper out of garage this AM, and it went back to its cycling thing.
Hard to figure, as yesterday it performed flawlessly for hours after I replaced that wire. I changed settings in the controller on the fly, it responded perfectly. No problems. Today, back to square one.
Has to be 1)a battery is bad, though they both checked out fine, or 2) the controller just doesn't like dealing with 2 6V batts in series.
Temp was warm here yesterday, but cold this AM...don't know if that has anything to do with it.
I'm done with this for now. Too much wasted time invested, with no consistent results. Out of options to try. Thanks for the support, much appreciated, even though the results weren't favorable.
When you replaced the wire, you disconnected that battery power from the system. Seems to me that this has happened before, no? Disconnect and it works fine for a bit?radarcontact said:
radarcontact
Senior Member
After ignoring the whole damn thing for the last 5 days I took a look at my system again today, and did a few things:
1) hooked up the controller again to my 12V truck battery, just to make sure it performed well like it did the other day - it did.
2) went to auto store and borrowed 2 6V batteries identical to mine, but a couple years old, and hooked them up in series to see if they did the same thing as my brand new 6Vs....they worked well with the controller, just like my 12V truck battery.
Hooked my 6Vs back up to the controller and did some adjusting of the controller. Noticed a couple things today:
1) Verified w/the battery manufacturer that my set points for absorption and float were correct - they were, 14.5V and 13.5V, respectively. Checked settings in controller. Batteries did their usual thing, got to absorption set point and went to float, no amps out once it went to float. That part doesn't necessarily bother me, as there's no load on in the camper, and the controller wants to let the battery voltage drop to 13.5, which it does over a period of a minute or two. The difference between my camper batteries and my truck battery, for instance, is that when 13.5V is reached, the controller will float my truck battery, but won't float my camper batteries. Voltage will eventually drop to 13.4 bec. no amps in, and then the controller switches back to absorption. However......if, say, I set the float setpoint in the controller to a lower number, say 13.3V or 13.2V, the battery takes longer to drop to that voltage. That increase in time seems to make a difference to the controller, bec. more often than not the controller will float at the lower setpoint. So, I'm thinking there's some time period required to make this adjustment - but, that flies in the face of what I get when I connect to the truck battery (float is set at 13.5V when connected to my truck battery), so it probably doesn't mean anything.
2) After the controller reaches its absorption setpoint of 14.5V, it switches to float and the voltage starts dropping to 13.5V. When the voltage is dropping slowly and it's, say, around 13.7V for example w/no amps out, I apply a load ..... turn on the frig, which takes at least 5A, the controller will STAY IN FLOAT, as long as there's enough sun coming into the panels. It never goes out of float to absorption, and shows 5.2A out, which would be 5A for the frig and 0.2A for the LEDs on the controller, and to float the batteries at 13.5V. If I then turn off the frig, the amps out will drop, but more often than not it WILL STAY IN FLOAT....?!?! Why would it float in that scenario, when a load was previously applied, but not float when there's virtually no load?
Only thing I can conclude is that the programming of the sensors on the controller don't account for floating new, highly charged batteries. Maybe with time things will improve, after the batteries break in...but I'm not hopeful.
Don't know if any of this info is helpful to anyone out there - I'm venting more than anything. But, if it's useful, I'm glad.
1) hooked up the controller again to my 12V truck battery, just to make sure it performed well like it did the other day - it did.
2) went to auto store and borrowed 2 6V batteries identical to mine, but a couple years old, and hooked them up in series to see if they did the same thing as my brand new 6Vs....they worked well with the controller, just like my 12V truck battery.
Hooked my 6Vs back up to the controller and did some adjusting of the controller. Noticed a couple things today:
1) Verified w/the battery manufacturer that my set points for absorption and float were correct - they were, 14.5V and 13.5V, respectively. Checked settings in controller. Batteries did their usual thing, got to absorption set point and went to float, no amps out once it went to float. That part doesn't necessarily bother me, as there's no load on in the camper, and the controller wants to let the battery voltage drop to 13.5, which it does over a period of a minute or two. The difference between my camper batteries and my truck battery, for instance, is that when 13.5V is reached, the controller will float my truck battery, but won't float my camper batteries. Voltage will eventually drop to 13.4 bec. no amps in, and then the controller switches back to absorption. However......if, say, I set the float setpoint in the controller to a lower number, say 13.3V or 13.2V, the battery takes longer to drop to that voltage. That increase in time seems to make a difference to the controller, bec. more often than not the controller will float at the lower setpoint. So, I'm thinking there's some time period required to make this adjustment - but, that flies in the face of what I get when I connect to the truck battery (float is set at 13.5V when connected to my truck battery), so it probably doesn't mean anything.
2) After the controller reaches its absorption setpoint of 14.5V, it switches to float and the voltage starts dropping to 13.5V. When the voltage is dropping slowly and it's, say, around 13.7V for example w/no amps out, I apply a load ..... turn on the frig, which takes at least 5A, the controller will STAY IN FLOAT, as long as there's enough sun coming into the panels. It never goes out of float to absorption, and shows 5.2A out, which would be 5A for the frig and 0.2A for the LEDs on the controller, and to float the batteries at 13.5V. If I then turn off the frig, the amps out will drop, but more often than not it WILL STAY IN FLOAT....?!?! Why would it float in that scenario, when a load was previously applied, but not float when there's virtually no load?
Only thing I can conclude is that the programming of the sensors on the controller don't account for floating new, highly charged batteries. Maybe with time things will improve, after the batteries break in...but I'm not hopeful.
Don't know if any of this info is helpful to anyone out there - I'm venting more than anything. But, if it's useful, I'm glad.
radarcontact
Senior Member
Final update on this thread, for anyone interested....
Was in S. California this past week camping on the beach, and I stopped by Blue Sky in Vista and spoke with Ryan, the head techie I've been dealing with. We went into his lab and set up conditions that replicated my camper setup. Initially, we weren't able to repeat my results. After stressing that my controller acted up when my batteries were fully charged (i.e., 100+%), we applied a charge to his test battery which took the voltage up to a full charge, then connected PV input. The controller did exactly what mine does, cycled between absorption and float continuously. Ryan is certain it's a firmware issue, and will have his software engineer correct the coding. Once that's done they're going to send me an updated controller.
Happy ending, and glad to find out I wasn't losing my mind LOL. Blue Sky is happy I've helped them improve their product. Their customer support is outstanding, and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase products from them in the future.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Was in S. California this past week camping on the beach, and I stopped by Blue Sky in Vista and spoke with Ryan, the head techie I've been dealing with. We went into his lab and set up conditions that replicated my camper setup. Initially, we weren't able to repeat my results. After stressing that my controller acted up when my batteries were fully charged (i.e., 100+%), we applied a charge to his test battery which took the voltage up to a full charge, then connected PV input. The controller did exactly what mine does, cycled between absorption and float continuously. Ryan is certain it's a firmware issue, and will have his software engineer correct the coding. Once that's done they're going to send me an updated controller.
Happy ending, and glad to find out I wasn't losing my mind LOL. Blue Sky is happy I've helped them improve their product. Their customer support is outstanding, and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase products from them in the future.
Happy Thanksgiving!
radarcontact said:
Glad you nailed it...question is whether all of us if we have the same circuits need the "firmware update'...FYI my two FWC AGM 12 volt batteries go to float and stay there for a very long time, with '16 Hawk in my shop on 110. Never have actually 'caught' it in absorption once it dropped to float while in shop storage...
Please let us know how this all resolves....thanks.
Phil
Glad you got it figured out, and happy that it was a problem with the charge controller, and not your set up. While BlueSky will likely make this right in the end - it is a bit worrying that they seem to have a major firmware bug and that it caused you so much work. I wonder if they will issue a recall on all controllers with this version of the firmware, or just hope most users don't notice?
Awesome news. I second rando's question. A recall notice would be the "right thing" to do.
radarcontact
Senior Member
Can't say for sure, but thinking they will fix the problem for anyone who's experiencing it. They have 3 controllers they market, and as far as I can tell, only my model (SB3000i) has the performance issue. We hooked up their lower end model while I was in CA, and, interestingly, it performed fine under the same test conditions. So, the coding issue is probably unique to the 3000i.rando said:
Wanted to stress again, particularly for anyone that has this controller - the cycling issue only happens when batteries are fully charged. There is a work-around to break the cycling...just apply a small load. Lights, whatever. The controller will normally float fine once that happens. The problem is more of an annoyance than anything else, since you usually have at least a small load on when you're camping, and everything works as it should. It's only when the batteries are charged up and the camper is sitting idle with no loads that you get the problem.
They told me it would be several months before they had a definitive answer. I will post any updates.
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