Disappointed in Ford / sad state of US automakers

In the end it's all just rubber and metal (and plastic) painted different colors

The important thing is that we "get out there"...

good luck on the quest/Ranger, real!

mtn
 
Mtn- Thanks for the encouragement. Unless my wife goes "Ack, I can't stand this" it is a question of when not if. We're making the pilgrimage to ATC/FWC June 22 so we'll see what happens. The trip tomorrow is more of an excuse to drop the top in the vette and take a little cruise.
 
Bad New Pods,
There are plenty of illegal aliens and drugs coming in from Canada. The folks look like us and take better jobs so they rarely get caught. That would make it appear to be racism.

If you cant keep drugs out of federal and state prisons putting a wall around the country seems to me to be an excercise in futility. It does create jobs though.... and a false sense of security.
 
It wasn't really supposed to be a political topic..... I meant it as more of a gear thread. I would just like to see a viable US auto manufacturer with strong roots in the US.

I'm not sure there is that much difference in the quality of Fords and Toyotas these days. I have one of each right now and I've had a few Ford trucks which have all been great.

I think we all feel this way. We all want great American designed and built vehicles, but that just isn't the simple world we live in anymore. It's not import vs export or anti/pro-American anything, it's just the complicated facts.

I'm just not buying anymore cheap crap from China if I can help it.
 
I'm not sure there is that much difference in the quality of Fords and Toyotas these days. I have one of each right now and I've had a few Ford trucks which have all been great.

For small trucks, I suspect Toyota is still building better trucks, but they don't build a 3/4 ton. There is simply no comparison between American 3/4 ton+ trucks and Toyotas.

Furthermore, current American trucks are so, so, so much better than the were 10 years ago.

I think Toyota could change the market if they introduced a 3/4 ton with a small diesel. I'd like that.
 
I think Toyota could change the market if they introduced a 3/4 ton with a small diesel. I'd like that.

Me too, which was kind of the point of the original post. Ford needs to be a step ahead of Toyota, not always a step behind.
 
Me too, which was kind of the point of the original post. Ford needs to be a step ahead of Toyota, not always a step behind.

Yeah, I tried to hold out for the 4.4 Expedition, but had to get rid of my absolute LEMON Honda, or rebuild the tranny at 51,995 miles. You tell me where Japanese reliability is, 'cause the one Honda I've owned was expensive to fix and consistently undriveable every 6 months after it's warranty expired. I have higher expectations for the Ford.
 
For small trucks, I suspect Toyota is still building better trucks, but they don't build a 3/4 ton. There is simply no comparison between American 3/4 ton+ trucks and Toyotas.

True. 3/4T and up is a whole different beast. It's not fair to compare any 3/4T+ to any 1/2T, no matter who makes it.

I think Toyota could change the market if they introduced a 3/4 ton with a small diesel. I'd like that.
They were supposed to release the Tundra in a diesel, but pulled the plug with the falling gas prices and economy last fall. Hopes were that it was going to be a 3/4T, but it would probably still be a 1/2t intended for towing. They have a big stake in Hino I think, and have a diesel in the Land Cruiser overseas which gets high marks.

I think Toyota is waiting to see how the big 3 end up. Honestly, is there room for Dodge, Chevy and Ford in 3/4T+ market? That market just isn't going to be as large as it was for long time. There certainly isn't room for 4 and it isn't clear how the competition will stack up, so they are probably smart to wait.
 
Bad New Pods,
There are plenty of illegal aliens and drugs coming in from Canada. The folks look like us and take better jobs so they rarely get caught. That would make it appear to be racism.

If you cant keep drugs out of federal and state prisons putting a wall around the country seems to me to be an excercise in futility. It does create jobs though.... and a false sense of security.

If you notice I didn't say it wasn't happening, it is, however without getting into it heavily the magnitude of illegal human traffic between our two borders is not comparable. Whether its 1-5, 1-10, 1-100 I don't know but there isn't even the same amount of evidence of human traffic between the two. I call BS on illegally taking "better jobs", these are the types of jobs that actually will verify citizenship. Additionally Canada doesn't have the same governmental problems chasing its citizens out. You have something to prove me wrong I'll eat crow but I'll not hear its racism to point at the biggest source of an issue first.

I don't really think a wall is the answer by the way. Mexico needs to get a stable and uncorrupted government otherwise people will continue to risk their lives to come to American. That being said I also don't have to approve of any person her illegally whether they prefer pancakes and maple syrup or breakfast burritos in the morning.
 
They were supposed to release the Tundra in a diesel, but pulled the plug with the falling gas prices and economy last fall. Hopes were that it was going to be a 3/4T, but it would probably still be a 1/2t intended for towing. They have a big stake in Hino I think, and have a diesel in the Land Cruiser overseas which gets high marks.

I think Toyota is waiting to see how the big 3 end up. Honestly, is there room for Dodge, Chevy and Ford in 3/4T+ market? That market just isn't going to be as large as it was for long time. There certainly isn't room for 4 and it isn't clear how the competition will stack up, so they are probably smart to wait.

The reality is a large percentage of the 3/4+ market really just needs a beefy 1/2ton. Built a midsize or 1/2t truck w/ a torque loaded turbo diesel, 2000lb payload (after fuel, passengers, etc.) and the axles/breaks to match. Leave the larger 3/4+ market to the farmers and such that really need them not the suburban driveways.

Ford needs to take note of the dodge quad cab, its a good compromise of space to add a few inches to the cab and pull it out of the bed, they'd likely do even better if they did that in place of the current extended cab.
 
You are right the magnitude is small by comparison. Of course the southern border has the entire south western hemisphere below it. And pretty much all those countries have major economic woes. I think we agree dont you? Now back to camping stuff.
 
This is kind of what Chevrolet has been doing for a few years.

The reality is a large percentage of the 3/4+ market really just needs a beefy 1/2ton. Built a midsize or 1/2t truck w/ a torque loaded turbo diesel, 2000lb payload (after fuel, passengers, etc.) and the axles/breaks to match. Leave the larger 3/4+ market to the farmers and such that really need them not the suburban driveways.

Ford needs to take note of the dodge quad cab, its a good compromise of space to add a few inches to the cab and pull it out of the bed, they'd likely do even better if they did that in place of the current extended cab.

While Chevy abandoned their small turbo diesel along with just about everyone else, they have been building HD versions of their trucks for at least a few years. Because I have the owners manual for a 2006 Silverado, I'll use that year for comparision.

My 2500HD uses the frame from the "3/4 ton" 2500 truck but has all the running gear - drive train, axles, springs, brakes, etc. - used on a 3500 "1 ton." My truck has the same Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) and Maximum Trailer Weight Rating as a 3500. But because my frame weighs less than that of a 3500, I can actually carry more weight than a similarly equipped 3500. The difference between the two chassis is in the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) - truck and trailer - where the 3500 beats my truck by 1,500 pounds. The difference between a 1500HD and a 2500 is comparable - more cargo capacity, equal trailer capacity, but less combined capacity. Unfortunately, the 1500HD doesn't have a diesel option.

My cargo capacity with a full tank of fuel, not including driver or passengers is 2236 pounds according to the door sticker, which is pretty close to pods8 ideal for a "1/2 ton" truck."

If Government Motors (GM) CEO Obama would allow Chevrolet to put a small turbo diesel into a 1500HD, I think that would be about the perfect truck for many people, including myself.
 
You are right the magnitude is small by comparison. Of course the southern border has the entire south western hemisphere below it. And pretty much all those countries have major economic woes. I think we agree dont you? Now back to camping stuff.

I definitely agree on that. I just roll my eyes when people try to deflect the issue, esp. when calling it racist. Its not racist to acknowledge the source of the majority of illegal immigration and want to use that as the starting point of addressing things. With that out of the way, back to truck stuff in this thread. ;)

If Government Motors (GM) CEO Obama would allow Chevrolet to put a small turbo diesel into a 1500HD, I think that would be about the perfect truck for many people, including myself.

Honestly where we are and are going on this has nothing to do with the current prez (or bush, etc...). The American automotive industries just need to realize that there is a desire and market for this kind of thing. On one hand I'm shocked they don't on the other hand I'm not surprised.
 
I definitely agree on that. I just roll my eyes when people try to deflect the issue, esp. when calling it racist. Its not racist to acknowledge the source of the majority of illegal immigration and want to use that as the starting point of addressing things. With that out of the way, back to truck stuff in this thread. ;)



Honestly where we are and are going on this has nothing to do with the current prez (or bush, etc...). The American automotive industries just need to realize that there is a desire and market for this kind of thing. On one hand I'm shocked they don't on the other hand I'm not surprised.

Tell me the law or precedent which allows the President of the United States to fire the CEO of a publicly traded corporation, or tell me how the bankruptcy laws can be circumvented by the President of the United States, and I'll retract my statement. This is the kind of discussion I have been reluctant to get into on this board but, dammit, where we are going has everything to do with this "prez" and we are going to a very bad place.
 
Tell me the law or precedent which allows the President of the United States to fire the CEO of a publicly traded corporation, or tell me how the bankruptcy laws can be circumvented by the President of the United States, and I'll retract my statement. This is the kind of discussion I have been reluctant to get into on this board but, dammit, where we are going has everything to do with this "prez" and we are going to a very bad place.

Actually this is something that has been discussed and agreed upon by men like Warren Buffet and the ex-CEO of GE - the US government stepped in and became a majority shareholder - so it gets to call the shots. Wouldn't be much different if the investor was private.

Personaly I'm sorry the government gave any of these companies any money at all. But they did and that makes them majority investors.
 
I won't say much...but when I think of American cars i think of "K" cars and other failed/POORLY BUILT offerings I've AVOIDED LIKE THE PLAGUE my entire adult life. Cars shouldn't be DISPOSABLE items....but many of the models built in the last 3 decades by American makers WERE just that.

I share your viewpoint, DD. I would support giving them $$$ **IF** they were looking forward and using that cash to come up with a solar/elec/etc car (and they can if they WANT TO) rather than unveiling a MASSIVE, GAS_GUZZLING F650 as "the future" and where we are going in this country.

Let's not forget that the relaxing of MPG/emissions standards by the Bozo...'er Bush administration is a large factor in the fact that we are still stuck to the end of that Mid East Oil tit...


"you want the obvious you'll get the obvious
you want the obvious you'll get the obvious
tell them Groucho said "You're just another Onionhead" Todd Rundgren

get ready for another hit on yer pension as GM goes under..........:eek:

some kinda fun, huh?
 
'Politics' - Not Limited to Governments

A snippet from the Wikipedia Article:

Politics is the process by which groups of people make decisions. The term is generally applied to behaviour within civil governments, but politics has been observed in all human group interactions, including corporate, academic, and religious institutions. It consists of "social relations involving authority or power" and refers to the regulation of a political unit, and to the methods and tactics used to formulate and apply policy.

Reading through the thoughtful, passionate posts in this thread, I am also thinking of how the Monroe Doctrine has metastasized in this hemisphere for almost 200 years, how Andrew Jackson disposed of his former allies the Cherokee, how labor unions -started to give the working man a voice in the decision-making process- have helped subvert the process, how clergy members of the largest Christian church have promulgated child physical and sexual abuse on more than one continent...

...and I also think of this little story.

A strong storm caused several thousand fish to be washed ashore and stranded in receding tidal pools. Seeing the fish were dying of suffocation and desiccation a young boy was moved to start tossing them back into the surf. His mother, wanting to protect her son, scolded him for handling the nasty, disgusting creatures. "Stop that!" she scolded, "you're only going to make yourself sick and besides, you can't save all these fish anyway!" The boy looked down at the fish by his feet. Its eye looked back in seeming panic and its gills beat frantically.

"But, I can save this one, Mom."

I believe we can each exert a tiny influence on the decisions groups make by engaging "one fish at a time." It's nasty. It's disgusting. We'll probably make ourselves sick. But it definitely makes a difference to somebody.
 
Tell me the law or precedent which allows the President of the United States to fire the CEO of a publicly traded corporation, or tell me how the bankruptcy laws can be circumvented by the President of the United States, and I'll retract my statement. This is the kind of discussion I have been reluctant to get into on this board but, dammit, where we are going has everything to do with this "prez" and we are going to a very bad place.

You're seriously trying to say these companies magically got in trouble and never catered to the markets that Americans want since the last prez took over (since I get the feeling that is who you are gunning for)? Did I miss where GM had a turbo diesel in a smaller truck and then obama made them take it out? :rolleyes: These companies weren't gang busters and then suddenly derailed in recent months, so to say the prez did and controls this is ridiculous. His policies may shape where things go but he won't specifically be on the helm of the ship and he certainly wasn't the one that drove it into the eye of the hurricane.
 
I don't blame Obama for the current economy or the collapse of GM. I agree they were going down hill for several years. GM sold 17 million vehicles in 2000 and only 10 million in 2008. The fault lies mostly with GM executives, and a little with the economy.

I disagree that GM wasn't making vehicles Americans wanted until gas prices spiked a year ago. I think the public doesn't consider any of the big 3 when they think fuel economy, which is a shame. However, Chevrolet made quality vehicles which got good mileage. The V6 Cobalt is one such car - 36 mpg on the highway, a little less in the city, and it didn't have the price penalty of a battery powered hybrid. I wish I had bought the one I was looking at 2 years ago because my Isuzu Amigo 2WD which got 24 mpg died a little later. Because I buy used, that Cobalt was gone.

I disagree with the assertion that American made vehicles are of poorer quality than Japanese brands. The K-cars, yeah, they were pretty awful. But look back a little further, say to up until the mid 70's and a lot of the Japanese stuff was just as bad or worse. Then the Japanese started making better quality cars, and it took a while for American companies to catch on. I heard that the Japanese government took a proactive approach and helped their manufacturers figure out how to build a better quality car, but I don't know if that's true, and it was a long time ago that I heard it.

Before ULSD became the national standard, I don't think the EPA would allow any diesel powered light duty car or truck in the USA. To my knowledge, VW is the only manufacturer offering diesel engines in this class of vehicle. They designed an engine for their big Touareg SUV that was supposed to meet American emissions standards using LSD, but the first 1000 units they shipped ran so poorly and produced so much smoke that they decided to store them until ULSD became available nation wide. Fortunately for VW that was only about a year wait. If any other foreign manufacture is selling diesel powered, light duty vehicles, please let me know. A car company should (and I bet all do) look several years into the future, yet I don't know of anyone offering a small diesel engine, so I don't think GM failed while Toyota, Honda, Kia, et al prevailed.

I blame Obama for orchestrating the government take over of a private sector corporation. I thought the "bail-out" was supposed to be a loan, and until the loan was repaid (which wasn't likely to happen) the government would gain a non-controlling interest in GM. Shortly after that, the CEO of GM was fired at the urging of Obama. On Monday, 01-June-09, GM will most likely be declared bankrupt under Chapter 11. If that happens, GM will be reorganized such that it's bond holders (their creditors other than the USA) will own 10% of the company, the UAW (not a creditor) will own 17.5% and the US Government will own a controlling share at 72.5%. Does anyone know the definition of socialism? When the USA owns GM, the USA (i.e. Obama, or hopefully someone else in 4 years) will decide if GM goes forward with the small turbo diesel or not.
 
Where's John McCain and his super hero outfit when ya really need him, huh? (I ask my dad this same question but received only a dirty look)

IMO...GM should be allowed to stand or fall on their merits/products/competitiveness in the market....just like the Gov't would treat us individually if any one of us we were running a failing business.

I laugh when I hear folks (my parents are guilty) talkiing about "socialism" as they are simultaneously complaining that their "SOCIAL SECURITY" check FROM THE GOV'T hasn't arrived yet and Medicaid is slow to reimburse...

"how can I change the World when I can't change myself?" rundgren
 

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