Disappointed in Ford / sad state of US automakers

[HERR42]

I'm just not buying anymore cheap crap from China if I can help it.

thats what we ALL said about Japanese stuff in the 60's!

do ya think that Chinese quality will ever improve? or is the "chicago mob mentality" of the communist leadership a guarantee against improvement?

 

[EdoHart]

...

IMO...GM should be allowed to stand or fall on their merits/products/competitiveness in the market....just like the Gov't would treat us individually if any one of us we were running a failing business.

I laugh when I hear folks (my parents are guilty) talkiing about "socialism" as they are simultaneously complaining that their "SOCIAL SECURITY" check FROM THE GOV'T hasn't arrived yet and Medicaid is slow to reimburse...

"how can I change the World when I can't change myself?" rundgren

I agree with you completely.

 

[chnlisle]

This probably lacks relevance but I play (poorly) a Blueridge guitar that's made in China. Several of my very accomplished player friends think its a very fine instrument. Its quite pretty as well.

The quality is going up in China and the worlds problems aren't likely to be solved by a bumper sticker.

 

[simimike]

Back to the OP. Dog, I agree with you. I think all the companies that build pick-up trucks in North America are missing a opportunity here. I'm in the market for a economical pick-up. I like the Ford Ranger but it is still in the mini truck category and I feel crowded in the cab, same with the GM Colorado/Canyon. This leaves me with Dodge Dakota, Nisan Frontier, Toyota Tacoma. Dodge dropped the 4 cyl years ago so it's either Toyota or Nissan.

If somebody builds a truck that gets 30 MPG I will buy one. Unless the the quality is in the Yugo range. I would like to see a 4 cyl diesel Dodge Dakota or Tacoma or Frontier. I think everybody is waiting for the other guy to market one to see how they do.

Dodge, Ford and GM are still stuck in the high horse power/torque mentality. Here's a thought, Let the other guy over build a powerful 1/2 ton. Build the highest milage 1/2 ton and see if it sells. I have read that Ford sells a F250 with a 4 cyl diesel in South America, smog that baby up and try it here.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[chnlisle]

Hey Mikey...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=7856

 

[simimike]

Jay,

I've been following these guys for awhile now. They are always 6 months or so from going on sale. When I see a dealer with inventory then I'll believe they are anything but vapor trucks.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[EdoHart]

An open apology.

I regret that I steered this thread away from DD's original post about Ford abandoning the small Turbo-diesel. I am truly sorry for my part in turning this into a political debate. I don't denounce what I think, but I do regret interposing my political beliefs into a thread where they really weren't called for, especially after I had said in another thread that this was not the forum for such things. Boy, am I embarrassed.

So, I say to everyone "I'm Sorry."

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

another article on the topic ...

another article on the topic ...


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[craig333]

Wow, how shortsighted

 

[Alex]

Wow, how shortsighted

and that's what got them here in the first place..

 

[RonSchon]

Short sighted and all, sure, but back when I had my CTD I could never get over the swings in diesel prices. Sometimes it was about the same as 87 octane, then other times it was as much as $1 more per gallon than 87.

If we were to add a lot more diesel burners to the market-place, I guess first we would need to have a lot more diesel refineries added to the matrix or else it would just be a logjam at the pump.

 

[EdoHart]

I have never run a car company...

It may seem short sighted to us (myself included), but ask the following questions.

1) How much have I spent on R&D to date? How much more do I expect to spend on R&D? R&D includes the cost of designing the engine, getting EPA approval, developing the tools and methods to mass produce it, and training the mechanics/technicians who will repair it (and surely, things I haven't thought of).
2) Am I willing to spend $250 million in plant upgrades to begin production of this engine?
3) Is the truck buying public willing to pay up to an extra $8,000 to buy my engine? How many miles to they have to drive to break even for that extra $8,000 cost?
4) What is my profit margin per engine at $8,000 each, and how many do I have to sell to break even for the R&D and plant upgrades?

Given the average consumer's short memory, and the recent slump in new vehicle purchases, I can't say I blame any of the manufacturers for halting development of their small diesel engine. I wish they would press on, but I don't see the same picture they do.

 

[craig333]

1, R&D has already been done europe. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. 2, engines sized for a small truck already exist. Cost, thats another thing. I spent the extra 5k on mine because I knew I'd keep the truck forever (or at least a very long time) but most people aren't like that.

 

[brett13]

1, R&D has already been done europe. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. 2, engines sized for a small truck already exist. Cost, thats another thing. I spent the extra 5k on mine because I knew I'd keep the truck forever (or at least a very long time) but most people aren't like that.

I'm not so sure about the R&D already being done. It has for large diesels, but the CA emission standards are MUCH different than Europe's. Europe focuses on CO2 while permitting much more NOX. CA and US standards are the opposite- we care about smog and particulate and damn the global warming. That is a tougher engineering problem, particularly since smaller diesel engines/trucks fall into a more strict emissions category too.

Here are the CA standards
European standards (don't forget to convert units)

I mention this- and I'm interested in the forum's thoughts since I'm not an expert here- because of that Hilux we discussed not long ago. It has really been bothering me they don't sell such a superior vehicle (more payload and 65% better fuel economy) in the biggest truck-loving market on Earth. Why? I had no answers until I looked into the emissions. That may be the answer.

 

[DirtyDog]

The Jeep Liberty came out in a diesel version. I really don't think it's rocket science. And if the auto makers are contracting an outside manufacturer like International to build the engines, then it seems to me that International is shouldering the bulk of the engine R&D (which I really don't think is that much because most of the technology already exists).

Was there a huge demand for hybrid cars when Toyota spent massive $$ developing that? No, but they at least approached the business cycle with a long-term vision and look where they are today.

 

[RonSchon]

Could it be so simple as fuel distribution systems?

1. We don't have enough diesel refinaries.

2. While my area has a very high amount of diesel pickups, of the 4 gas stations near my house, only 1 of them carries diesel fuel.

 

[DirtyDog]

Could it be so simple as fuel distribution systems?

1. We don't have enough diesel refinaries.

2. While my area has a very high amount of diesel pickups, of the 4 gas stations near my house, only 1 of them carries diesel fuel.

If you look at the history of oil you will find that markets always change with demand. If there are more diesel vehicles, availability of diesel fuels will change accordingly.

GM did that dumb flexfuel thing and you really can't get ethanol anywhere

 

[brett13]

The Jeep Liberty came out in a diesel version. I really don't think it's rocket science. And if the auto makers are contracting an outside manufacturer like International to build the engines, then it seems to me that International is shouldering the bulk of the engine R&D (which I really don't think is that much because most of the technology already exists).

Was there a huge demand for hybrid cars when Toyota spent massive $$ developing that? No, but they at least approached the business cycle with a long-term vision and look where they are today.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why Toyota isn't selling the diesel here. In fact, it argues for it.

I come up with two possible explanations: the emissions and/or market analysis pointing to Americans just not being as receptive to diesels. I can't think of another reason.

 

[DirtyDog]

I come up with two possible explanations: the emissions and/or market analysis pointing to Americans just not being as receptive to diesels. I can't think of another reason.

Toyota already got caught with their pants down as they over-estimate demand for the Tundra in North America. They have idled US plants for months. It doesn't make sense for them to build more trucks they can't sell anyway - especially when they are doing so well in other segments.

In contrast, US automakers are lagging way behind in R&D, are getting killed in most market segments, and they desperately need to innovate where ever they can.

 

[brett13]

Toyota already got caught with their pants down as they over-estimate demand for the Tundra in North America. They have idled US plants for months. It doesn't make sense for them to build more trucks they can't sell anyway - especially when they are doing so well in other segments.

In contrast, US automakers are lagging way behind in R&D, are getting killed in most market segments, and they desperately need to innovate where ever they can.

Toyota has always thought ahead. The Hilux has had a diesel for a while in Europe. They could have done this 5 years ago, now 12 months ago. I suppose at the time, gas was cheap, consumers didn't care, so why sell a diesel? Then again, they launched the Prius is a low-cost gas environment too.

For the domestics, I think it is just plain old short-sightedness and a lack of both funds and risk-taking cojones at the moment. Everything they do will be triple criticized. They can't afford another mis-step, so they are going with the tried and true they already have and know.