Front Bumpers, Winches and Lights-Thoughts, Opinions Experience, etc.

[Advmoto18]

Why do you want to install a winch on the rear?

As one who has been winching for 40+ years, I will still defer to Jonathan Hansen's advice. I've been in enough predicaments over the decades, attended enough Overland Expos and watched Land Rover and other experts give classes on winching, to conclude, if you need a rear winch to recover yourself, you are probably in terrain where you should not be the lone vehicle. In terrain where you need to be pulled out rearward, a second vehicle (with a front mounted winch) is optimum to perform your recovery.

The OEM wiring harness for my Warn 16.5S is 2 gauge. And the Warn harness is 6' in length. Warn doesn't even offer a gauge recommendation for lengths in excess of 6'. I suspect too much amperage drop in longer lengths which is not good for a HD electric motor.

One of the hardest concepts of overlanding to learn...knowing when to turn around BEFORE it is too late and recovery becomes very problematic. And I don't think anyone gets this concept down 100%. The more techniques you learn, the more experience you gain only seems to push you further down that tough, technical trail.

I have a Trail Ready (Idaho made) Base front bumper on my Super Duty.

 

[Wallowa]

Why do you want to install a winch on the rear?

As one who has been winching for 40+ years, I will still defer to Jonathan Hansen's advice. I've been in enough predicaments over the decades, attended enough Overland Expos and watched Land Rover and other experts give classes on winching, to conclude, if you need a rear winch to recover yourself, you are probably in terrain where you should not be the lone vehicle. In terrain where you need to be pulled out rearward, a second vehicle (with a front mounted winch) is optimum to perform your recovery.

The OEM wiring harness for my Warn 16.5S is 2 gauge. And the Warn harness is 6' in length. Warn doesn't even offer a gauge recommendation for lengths in excess of 6'. I suspect too much amperage drop in longer lengths which is not good for a HD electric motor.

One of the hardest concepts of overlanding to learn...knowing when to turn around BEFORE it is too late and recovery becomes very problematic. And I don't think anyone gets this concept down 100%. The more techniques you learn, the more experience you gain only seems to push you further down that tough, technical trail.

I have a Trail Ready (Idaho made) Base front bumper on my Super Duty.

Don't disagree with most of what you stated. But you are preaching to the choir. For many decades [6+] I have evaluated and balanced risks in my adventures and most often they are done solo over extended periods [Sea kayaking, free diving, climbing, back country skiing and off road motorcycle and truck]. Two observations: Solo adventures are very rich in experiences that can not be duplicated in a group and secondly you must fully assume the risks while preparing for as many as you can.

In serious situations indeed knowing when to turn back is critical; or as I say: "If there is any doubt, there is no doubt". But misjudgments happen.

Why should you have a rear and front recovery system....because you may need extraction in either direction. The unexpected or unknown can always "stop you right there". Not complicated and self-rescue is the rule. However carrying self-rescue gear or traveling in a group can foster poor judgment and seduce you into thinking "I can handle anything" until you can't.

I agree that Warn has a paucity of information but they sell 20 and 24 foot cables for use with their winches that are 2 gauge. I will confirm gauge size with them once more but over the years any issues with a too small of a cable would seem to be evident and have created problems, I have not heard of any. Proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Winches are new territory for me and I am learning as I go. Having a winch could be an overkill or a life saver; time will tell.

All this is just my opinions, thoughts and experiences; and, I could be wrong.

Phil

 

[Advmoto18]

Phil

You will not find a bigger proponent and advocate for personal responsibility and self-reliance than me. But, when poor decisions result in others being summoned and exposed to danger to save you is altogether a different matter.

I submit it is better to perform a straight-line pull forward to clear the obstacle and turn around. If that is not feasible, then perhaps it is time to seek an additional recovery vehicle.

Needing a winch on the rear of your truck puts you in the less than 1% of 1% who venture into areas where you would need self extraction with a rear winch. Further, you are almost committed to a straight-line pull with a rear winch since you can't turn the rear wheels. Off-line pulls are manageable, but, put tremendous stress on the winch and the vehicle. Not to mention less winching power with off-line pulls. Further winch bumpers are not designed to take asymmetric loading when you start winching 10-20 degrees off-line.

I doubt any of us here have the overlanding experience level of the Wescott's. And I recall Gary once being asked why he didn't have a rear winch. And his comment was if he needed a rear winch, he made a poor decision much, much earlier.

My Warn 16.5S is probably my 12th Warn winch. Warn does not recommend exceeding the length of their wiring harness due to voltage drop. I incorrectly stated amps in my earlier post, the issue is voltage drop in longer wire runs.

You can only achieve max rated pull of the winch when you are on the last 10 wraps or so on the drum. Further, you only achieve max rated voltage of the winch's motor when you use the Warn electrical harness. Exceed that length with 2 GA wire and you will have voltage drop.

A winch is just another tool in the proverbial tool bag. But a tool that takes many overlanders down the poor decision-making path simply because they have a winch. Or worse, get hurt, hurt some else or damage equipment because of a lack of knowledge and experience. Winching is inherently very dangerous and ALL safety precautions MUST be adhered too. No shortcuts. And, no tool will overcome poor decision-making.

As a former military fighter pilot and retired airline captain, I do not believe sound risk management is aligned with poor decision making based on final outcome. Risk management and taking risks beyond what you can manage is not risk management.

Case in point...the Delta flight that flew from JFK to SJU Wednesday before Irma hit. Delta is playing that up in the media, but, nearly every professional airline pilot is calling it a stupid marketing ploy to risk that many souls. This was a horrible dispatch decision that far exceeded any airline's risk management program. Just because they safely completed the round trip flight without incident doesn't make the decision to go a good one.

And I absolutely agree, if there is any doubt, even the slightest, there is no doubt, turn around!

And winching can be safe and is a very effective tool to possess. But very unforgiving if not treated with the utmost respect.

Bill

 

[Wallowa]

Thanks Bill...good information and appreciated. After I re-contact Warn concerning the requisite gauge wire needed for a rear connector I will post that info here..

Risk management does not mean absence of risk nor complete avoidance of negative out comes. Poor judgment or unknown variables can always reach out and bite you. Mr. Murphy is always lurking ready to pounce. You do your best and then adapt to the reality presented.

One passing thought...What is wrong with having a rear and front winching capacity? If not needed so be it; but just another arrow in the quiver if needed. My 8S Multi Mount gives front and rear options without any that I see drawbacks.

Hey, I am learning and listening.

Phil

 

[Wallowa]

Again all the information on this topic is of great help to me and appreciated.

Hi Ace, long time!

Yup, using receiver hitches to mount the winch does impose limits on pulling lbs and angle of pull...I see the Warn site only recommended 15 degrees from vertical and 45 degrees horizontal as acceptable limits...these sound reasonable..

Just called Warn and confirmed for the third time that they in fact only use 2 gauge for rear mounted winch connectors...their service rep said that the 2 gauge is used for all winches they make and out to 35 feet.....so I will stay with 2 gauge when I make my own leads.

Thanks to all, the advice and information is very valuable. Hopefully I will never need the high-lift jack or winch!

Phil

 

[JHanson]

This thread has resulted in a lot of good information and thoughts!

To clear up some nomenclature: It’s generally accepted that a “wrap” refers to the line or cable completing one turn around the drum. A “layer” refers to one complete width of the drum covered in “wraps.” Thus manufacturers will tell you never to winch without at least five or six “wraps” of line in place on the bottom “layer.” And the axiom follows that a winch loses approximately ten percent of its power with each succeeding “layer” of line spooled on the drum.

I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a rear-mounted winch; the problem is that almost all rear-mounted winches are temporarily mounted via the receiver, and that can be a problem for the reasons stated earlier, along with the additional issue of power draw (and I agree with both of those who said 2-gauge cable is inadaquate). You could, as some have done, construct a permanent rear mount for a winch, and supply it with adequate power, but even then there are issues. Rear-mounted winches are right in the stream of filth flung up by the vehicle; it’s almost impossible to keep them clean. And on some (not all) trucks I’d be concerned about the integrity of the rear chassis section even with a proper mount. Older American trucks employed open-channel frames that are subject to twisting merely when driven on trails; the current (!) Toyota Tundra and Tacoma also employ open-channel frames in the rear, to my everlasting chagrin.

I'll just repeat that if you go with a receiver-mount winch, do everything possible to arrange a straight pull. Use a snatch block and rig a redirected pull if you have to, but make sure the line coming out of the winch is under no sideways strain. I disagree with Warn's endorsement of a 45º sideways pull; I would halve that at most.

 

[Advmoto18]

Phil... the only way to learn is ask questions. The only dumb question is the one you do not ask!

You can take Jonathan Hanson's advice to the bank! I have learned more about safe and proper winching techniques the last 5 years at Overland Expo then the previous 40. The previous 40 was simply go out and winch and hope for the best.

Luckily we didn't get hurt or kill someone back in the 70s because winching equipment was not nearly as safe back then. But also, I am well, well past my NAFOD years. What is NAFOD you ask? NO APPARENT FEAR OF DEATH. Life itself was a huge risk back in my NAFOD years! LOL.

 

[Wallowa]

NAFOD! I love! Like "IAI" 'I am immortal' which with me lasted way too long! ....I also have learned a lot listening to J.

Currently looking for 1 gauge wire...pun intended...and not the Warn recommended 2 gauge; better safe than sorry.

Question: Warn said not to use the truck frame for the ground wire at the rear of the truck....what is the collective experience on that?

I plan to run two cables but my buddy with the same winch [1 gauge] on his Tacoma grounded to the frame in the rear.

Phil

 

[craig333]

Sometimes we don't always have a chance to turn around. I once had the road collapse on me. A culvert had washed out but there was no visual indication there was anything wrong. One thing that has helped me a lot is simply walking. If it looks iffy get out and walk, look around and see whats down the road. One thing I really hate is backing up half a mile. Don't want to do that again.

If I really want to see whats down the road I'll come back with the Jeep. It can turn around in places the truck just says nope.

 

[JHanson]

NAFOD: that is awesome. My trial-and-error first experiments with winching included simply wrapping the cable around a boulder and hooking it to itself.

Warn is correct regarding grounding to the frame—you should run a properly sized ground cable all the way back to the battery. Your friend's ground will be causing a loss of voltage in his winch.

 

[Wallowa]

Ok..riddle for me...all the 'quick connect/disconnect' Warn connectors are only rated to a max of 178 amps but the Warn Zeon 8S winch data below shows a max of 413 amps is possible...what am I missing?

40 feet of TEMco 1 gauge cable on order; now trying to sort out a compatible connector from the 1 gauge cable [Warn connectors go to a max of 2 gauge] to the connector on the winch...fun figuring all this out at least it will be when I actually do figure it out..

Phil


Sorry for chart mess...


[SIZE=10pt]12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8.5pt]Line Pull Lbs.(Kgs.) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]Line Speed [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]FT./min(M/min.) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]Motor [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]Current [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]Pull by layer [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]layer/Lbs(Kgs.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt] 0 [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]35 (12.8) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]63 amps [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]1/8000 (3629)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt] 2000 (910) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]17.2 (5.2) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]167 amps [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]2/6777 (3074)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt] 4000 (1810) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]11.7 (3.6) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]255 amps [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]3/5878 (2666)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt] 6000 (2720) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]8.5 (2.6) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]335 amps [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]4/5189 (2353)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt] 8000 (3630) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]6.2 (1.9) [/SIZE][SIZE=8.5pt]413 amps[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8.5pt]Above performance specs are based on first layer of drum[/SIZE]

 

[ntsqd]

Ampacity ratings can be absolute maximum, they can be some normal maximum with some Factor of Safety (FS) included. They can be based on DC current, they can be based on AC current, they can be determined inside of or outside of an engine bay (elevated temperature). For all we know that 175A rating was made based on 250°F ambient service conditions, DC, and with the Factor of Safety set at 10 to 1. Which means that he connector will safely carry way more current in more normal conditions.
This page says that the Anderson SB175 series connector is actually rated to 340 amps and accommodates wire from 10 ga. to 2/0:
https://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/products/sb-sb-boots/index.aspx
If the Series designation "SB175" is where whomever is getting the 175 Amp rating from, it's wrong. the difference between 340 A and 413 A isn't huge when you factor in that the 413A demand is short term and the 340A rating is continuous. A motor that draws 340 amps continuously will have an in-rush current that can easily be twice it's continuous demand. Yet it is rare that this in-rush current needs to be considered because the wiring components have enough FS to handle that short term higher current.

If the above connector is not what Warn is using then your two options are to change to the next larger Connector series that offers a contact for your cable size. OR do a butt-splice to step down the cable size to work with existing connector. Keep in mind that it is "Amps over Distance" that is important in determining cable size. Not merely amps. A short section of appropriately sized smaller cable will not be a problem. Stepping-down is less than ideal from a cable flexibility perspective as well as from permitting as few conductor joints as possible for the most robust system.

Also keep in mind that the winch motor will only demand the amps necessary to meet the load. If the load is small then winch motor won't be working too hard and it won't require max amperage. (Monitoring this phenomenon is a key component to "Lights-out Manufacturing" using CNC machine tools.) Which is to say that sizing for max amps is the most robust solution, but depending on how often (& how long) max amps are demanded a smaller cable may be more appropriate for a system such as this.

I don't have many years of winching experiences. I have very few actually. However, this whole concept that winches are only for pulling you forward is a crock. The very same people who tell you that and also say "turn around before it gets beyond you." I think that just about the height of hypocrisy!!! Maybe the shortest way out of a situation IS forward, but maybe it is reversing out.
What if you've just got the front tires into something that wasn't what it seemed.Do you really want to drag the whole vehicle thru that, only to turn around and have to drag the whole vehicle thru it AGAIN to get out of there? If you can pull yourself backwards out of such an easy to encounter situation you just saved yourself a bunch of effort and time, not to mention wear and risk to the vehicle.

That said, the rear winching attachment method & structure needs to be up to the same task as would the front winch attaching method and structure. The primary stressor of a socket receiver mounted winch is going to be anything less than a straight pull. The quickest, easiest way I see to reduce that is to get some turn-buckles rated for the full winch load, and set up to be able to attach them between the winch cradle and the trailer hitch. They need to be attached to the winch cradle at the bumper side's outer corners, and they want to be splayed out at roughly a 45° angle towards the vehicle's frame rails. The turnbuckles should be of the clevis type only. Setting up to winch would include attaching both turnbuckles regardless of pull direction. Note that the turnbuckles should not be tensioned tight, but rather set such that they are tight only when it is a straight line pull and all of the slack is taken out of the cradle to hitch junction. The idea is not for the turnbuckle to take the direct winching load, but to take any bending load induced by a less than straight line pull. The nuances of setting this up should probably be another thread.

 

[Wallowa]

More information needed;

I was told by Warn that 20 foot cables are sufficient to reach and wire in a connector on the back bumper of my '05 Access Cab Tundra.

Hopefully that length is going to reach, since I ordered two 1 gauge cables in 20 foot lengths. I did a mock-up with an extension cord and it is going to be close! Of course I only did this after ordering the cables. Slow down Phil, think it through....

Turning to the battery terminals...with the FWC and OEM leads on the battery I am out of room on the posts to attach the winch leads [4 in total] plus the ground clamp attached to battery post has a very thick OEM Toyota cables/loom hard wired [crimped] into that clamp.

Information on any and all sources and types of battery terminal clamps that I can put on the battery to accommodate all these wires is needed and appreciated. Most puzzling is working around that OEM ground clamp; do not want to tear into it. Please chime in!

Thanks,

Phil

Ps...Is using a separate power strip/board an option? Still need to deal with the hard wired OEM ground.

 

[2tallDA]

Sometimes we don't always have a chance to turn around. I once had the road collapse on me. A culvert had washed out but there was no visual indication there was anything wrong. One thing that has helped me a lot is simply walking. If it looks iffy get out and walk, look around and see whats down the road. One thing I really hate is backing up half a mile. Don't want to do that again.

If I really want to see whats down the road I'll come back with the Jeep. It can turn around in places the truck just says nope.

That's an excellent point. Better to sink to your knees than have the truck go down.

 

[ntsqd]

More information needed;

Turning to the battery terminals...with the FWC and OEM leads on the battery I am out of room on the posts to attach the winch leads [4 in total] plus the ground clamp attached to battery post has a very thick OEM Toyota cables/loom hard wired [crimped] into that clamp.

Information on any and all sources and types of battery terminal clamps that I can put on the battery to accommodate all these wires is needed and appreciated. Most puzzling is working around that OEM ground clamp; do not want to tear into it. Please chime in!

Thanks,

Phil

Ps...Is using a separate power strip/board an option? Still need to deal with the hard wired OEM ground.

Answered your other post: http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/14943-rear-bumper-with-swing-away-spare-tire-and-storage-box/page-3#entry179074

 

[ottorogers]

I am looking for insight and opinions on front bumpers, winches and driving lights. I have looked but can't seem to find a decent thread on the topic.

I drive a 2015 Tundra and have pretty much boiled my decision on a bumper down to an Expedition One with the pre-runner hoops . I would like to consider ARB but am tired of waiting for them to come out with a bumper that will fit my truck. Besides, Expedition One is offering 20% off on all their bumper orders through the end of July so I should move quickly!

• Thoughts and opinions on bumper selection appreciated. What do you have and why?
• Considering Smittybilt winch-could wear out three before paying for the Warn
• Lights-Expedition One offers PIAA and Baja Designs for my truck-anybody with experience with these brands-light up trails, failures, life expectancy, etc. Looking at fogs for the ports and something on top-will accommodate up to 3 8" lights on top of bumper.

I am really having a hard time with the lights since I have never owned a truck with these types of lights. The reviews and videos are spotty at best.

Give us your opinions, post pictures etc! Thanks!

I am also interested in this topic, I have a 2014 Tundra, and Alluminess, which would be my first choice, does not make products for the 2014 and beyond, which I find hard to understand, these are very popular trucks, but they told me on the phone they do not make much at all for 2014 and beyond. I am looking for a rear bumper with swing arm and storage boxes, so far I am dizzy searching the internet for anything at all, but nothing

 

[Wallowa]

Otto's Quote:
"I am also interested in this topic, I have a 2014 Tundra, and Alluminess, which would be my first choice, does not make products for the 2014 and beyond, which I find hard to understand, these are very popular trucks, but they told me on the phone they do not make much at all for 2014 and beyond. I am looking for a rear bumper with swing arm and storage boxes, so far I am dizzy searching the internet for anything at all, but nothing"



I know this topic has been beaten to death...

I see the basic front Aluminess bumpers @ 85lbs and Expedition One @ 120 lbs...the cost for either is obscene..

My take....with our Tundra trucks we are really limited, or should be, to GVW vs what we load them up with...however in my opinion we will never snap an axle or ruin the drive train if we do not abuse them but use them conservatively off-road...off-road is the key in evaluating the set-up for me, highway traffic is another kettle of fish..

My '05 Tundra Access cab has all the bells and whistles [winter package, towing package, rear sway bar, air bags...etc] never the less with my fully outfitted Hawk, supplies, extraction gear...the wet weight with 25 gals of fuel is significantly over what Toyota recommends...notwithstanding that, the combo handles very well off road and on pavement...will this decrease the life of my truck? Not in my life time..

I went with Curt front receiver and WARN Zeon 8S Multi-Mount [100 lbs] to save weight and add versatility and felt it was better to go first tier [WARN] rather than suffer a failure or re-do in the future. The way I drive off road will I ever need the winch? Probably not, but the first time I have a blow down blocking my exit route or I screw up and muck it in or high center it...well, the winch will be a blessing and I do not have to turn to the High Lift jack and pray.

Look all this is my opinion with quite a lot of off road over the decades but only about 40K with Tundra and 8K with FWC set-up; I have not stayed at a Holiday Inns, nor am I any brand of expert!

In the end it comes down to personal choice, hopefully with decisions based on the best information available.

Phil

 

[ckent323]

Craig333,

During our 37 day trip while we were exploring n the in the Blue Mountains in Eastern Oregon we were driving up a 4WD road with the Dodge in 4WD when we came across a sketchy dirt track across the face of a pretty steep hillside that looked like it led over to a mine. I decided to give it a go. My wife was decidedly against it but rode along - she was willing to trust me (up to that point) as I have done a fair amount of off pavement driving in my life (not much with the camper on though).

The Dodge with camper on was tilting pretty seriously in a couple of spots. Then about 3/4 of a mile in I reached a point of not being able to go forward due to a fallen tree (I walked in a ways first before trying the track but I did not go far enough to see the downed tree - DOH! #1). There was no place to turn around

I do not have a winch on the truck.

The wife was not pleased and said she was walking back to the main 4WD road we had turned off of. She got out and started walking quite unhappy that I had terrified her (understandably). She revealed that more than once that she had scary visions the whole time of the truck and camper rolling down the side of the mountain. I was so excited about going over to the mine and so focused on driving once we started on the track that I really did not realize how scared she was - DOH! #2.

After really thinking things through I put the truck in reverse and very slowly backed out. It was not exactly a straight road but the few curves were short and backing out, it turned out, really wasn't that tough, it just took patience and an easy throttle. There were a couple of places where I got a little out of the track and the truck started tilting more so I stopped, pulled forward and carefully got back in the track.

A winch would have done me no good unless I decided to try to pull the downed tree out of the track.

That is about the diciest place I have had the truck with the camper on. I confess to being a bit concerned a couple of times at the tilt angle when driving in. I also was a bit worried in a couple of soft spots about losing traction.

I have long thought about putting a winch on the truck. I'm undecided at this juncture if it is worth the extra weight and cost. I am pretty sure I will put a locker on the rear differential before I put on a winch (probably a manual locker).

Regards,
Craig

 

[Wallowa]

Craig333,

During our 37 day trip while we were exploring n the in the Blue Mountains in Eastern Oregon we were driving up a 4WD road with the Dodge in 4WD when we came across a sketchy dirt track across the face of a pretty steep hillside that looked like it led over to a mine. I decided to give it a go. My wife was decidedly against it but rode along - she was willing to trust me (up to that point) as I have done a fair amount of off pavement driving in my life (not much with the camper on though).

The Dodge with camper on was tilting pretty seriously in a couple of spots. Then about 3/4 of a mile in I reached a point of not being able to go forward due to a fallen tree (I walked in a ways first before trying the track but I did not go far enough to see the downed tree - DOH! #1). There was no place to turn around

I do not have a winch on the truck.

The wife was not pleased and said she was walking back to the main 4WD road we had turned off of. She got out and started walking quite unhappy that I had terrified her (understandably). She revealed that more than once that she had scary visions the whole time of the truck and camper rolling down the side of the mountain. I was so excited about going over to the mine and so focused on driving once we started on the track that I really did not realize how scared she was - DOH! #2.

After really thinking things through I put the truck in reverse and very slowly backed out. It was not exactly a straight road but the few curves were short and backing out, it turned out, really wasn't that tough, it just took patience and an easy throttle. There were a couple of places where I got a little out of the track and the truck started tilting more so I stopped, pulled forward and carefully got back in the track.

A winch would have done me no good unless I decided to try to pull the downed tree out of the track.

That is about the diciest place I have had the truck with the camper on. I confess to being a bit concerned a couple of times at the tilt angle when driving in.

I have long thought about putting a winch on the truck. I'm undecided at this juncture if it is worth the extra weight and cost. I am thinking locker on the rear differential before winch.

Regards,
Craig

Craig,

Great write-up.

Certainly for me those are definitely lessons to learn from, thanks.

As an aside...besides the winch I carry a 24" chain saw, broken down and stored with extra chain/oil/pre-mix in a 'sealed' HD garbage bag inside a duct taped RubberMaid container. And I carry a really good full size axe.

Again, thanks for the re-play of your adventure. Hope your Bride eventually forgave you!

Phil

 

[ntsqd]

As our CTD has a Dana 70 rear axle our local 4WD shop suggested the Dana limited slip rear diff. Ruben told me that I'd never spin a rear tire in the rig and I'd never feel it while driving on pavement (he knew I'd put 100k+ miles on a rear Detroit and hated most of it). He was mostly right. Never, ever felt it when the truck rode on the GY Dura-Tracs, now feel it in tight turns with the Yoko's. Have never known it to spin a tire. Slip the inside tire yes, but never spin one.

Front axle is still open and I debate whether or not to add a TAD to it or not. So far we've never needed it and I've gone places with the truck that I probably shouldn't have.