Full Time Living Eagle

[GammedeLumiere]

We've been living in 2005 FWC Eagle in British Columbia full time skiing. We have custom made insulation to wrap around the interior of camper to cover the coated fabric. We are using a 3500 BTU catalytic heater along with a secondary propane heater.

As to be expected there is severe condensation build up on the fabric part of the camper. This is ordinarily not a big deal as we (mostly the amazing woman in my life) just towels off the excess moisture but since the temperatures are consistently below 0F and will continue to be so for next few months we are experiencing unprecedented ice growth.

The issue is that the ice growth is occurring behind the front and rear wood panels so it is becoming harder and harder to pop up and is getting to the point where there is so much build up that the boards do not have enough space to fully extend and therefore lock into place.

We just had a melt day where we raised internal camper temp to 90F but are there any thoughts on long term solutions to this?

Even if ya'll have no solutions we would love to hear your thoughts on this especially if you have lived in four wheel long term in extremely cold places.

Thanks

 

[Wallowa]

Wow...good on ya. Couples of questions: What is the "custom made insulation" material? Does this material go behind the lift panels? Behind the lift panels has almost zero insulation, only exterior vinyl. Secondly I believe you indicated that you use a catalytic and propane heater. Is the propane heater a FWC type vented to outside? I assume so. And the catalytic heater WILL discharge combustion products inside the camper...water for certain and also, the bigger issue for me is, CO and CO2.

In final analysis I feel the only way to slow or stop ice from accumulating inside is: #1 Reduce introduction of water vapor into camper [vent fans and reduce inside combustion] and #2 Vigorously vent the camper when water vapors are being generated [again fans and open vents with high heat as warm air will carry more water vapor].

Phil

Don't discount the amount of water vapor from exhalations.

 

[cwdtmmrs]

Maybe a custom insulation wrap on the OUTSIDE of the camper.Catalytic heaters are not supposed to discharge CO , but they will burn oxygen.

cwd

 

[rando]

There are two ways you can deal with this - reduce the amount of water vapor in the air and insulate you walls to bring them above the dew point for the humidity level you are at.

For reducing the amount of water vapor, you may want to reconsider using the catalytic heater. With these, all the combustion products (primarily water and CO2) are being dumped inside your camper. For every gram of propane you burn, you are producing about two grams of water vapor. I am guessing that on a cold night you are burning maybe a kg of propane (2lb), which means you are putting 2kg or 2 liters of water into the air in your camper, some of which condenses on your walls. The furnace vents this moisture and CO2 outside, and doesn't add to the moisture load inside the camper. Humans are also a major source of water vapor - about 0.8L per person per day - so about a liter for 2 of you being in the camper for 12 hours a day, however this is not something you can reduce. Cooking is probably the third most significant source of water vapor - opening a vent while running the stove will help with this. You can also increase the ventilation to bring in dry (but cold) air from outside and vent the moisture out. However if you are using the catalytic heater, this is a loosing proposition as you will end up burning more propane to warm that cold air, and in the process adding more water vapor to the air. With the furnace, this will help but at the cost of higher propane use.

To reduce the condensation through insulation you need to be thoughtful of how you do it. Insulating the insides of the walls with permeable insulation such as the arctic pack doesn't do too much in this regard. The moist air can pass through the arctic pack and come in contact with the liner fabric, where it will condense and freeze. A better approach would be to insulate the outside of the liner, so that the vinyl fabric stays above the dew point and doesn't condense. Someone on WtW has done this with reflectix, but obviously it needs to be installed and removed every time you pop the top. The final option would be to insulate the inside of the liner with impermeable insulation (ensolite, reflectix etc) but it needs to seal well to the walls/roof to stop warm moist air getting behind it.

What ever you do, this is going to be a challenge and in reality a pop up camper is probably not the right tool for the job. Good luck!

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

That's some good info rando.
Thanks.
Frank

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

I have not tried this, so I can't say that it would be a factory recommendation, but maybe worth a try?

We have a customer heading to the Arctic Circle soon and he is getting his camper ready for the same type of weather.

I think he is going to try and put strips of foam behind the folding lift panels to keep an air gap behind there.

This might (might?) help to keep the camper warmer and also keep the condensation away from that unreachable space.

They are going to use a piece of foam that reaches from the top, to the bottom (so there is no small gap as what is pictured above the foam, on the attached pic)

Just thought I would throw it out there in case you want to give it a try.

Hope this helps.

Would be curious to find out if it works of not?

Stan



.

 

[Wallowa]

I have not tried this, so I can't say that it would be a factory recommendation, but maybe worth a try?

We have a customer heading to the Arctic Circle soon and he is getting his camper ready for the same type of weather.

I think he is going to try and put strips of foam behind the folding lift panels to keep an air gap behind there.

This might (might?) help to keep the camper warmer and also keep the condensation away from that unreachable space.

Just thought I would throw it out there in case you want to give it a try.

Hope this helps.

Would be curious to find out if it works of not?

Stan



.

Stan

Using the foam strips as you show seems like a good concept...in my Hawk it might be tough to extend the panel vertically when raising the top if the foam pushes the panels away from the vinyl siding, but perhaps I could slide it in place once the lift panels have fully extended. I tried a thin blanket behind panels but it was too thick and prevented the panels from correctly aligning and "snapping" into vertical...

Would appreciate a write up of the FWC artic prep and what worked and what didn't...thanks!

Phil

 

[takesiteasy]

I like this idea. Might not prevent all condensation back there but I suspect it would help.

 

[takesiteasy]

Regarding controlling condensation, having a small fan to keep the air moving inside the camper would also help to minimize the formation of condensation on exposed interior surfaces.

 

[Wallowa]

Regarding controlling condensation, having a small fan to keep the air moving inside the camper would also help to minimize the formation of condensation on exposed interior surfaces.

This is an add on we will be looking for. The heat in the camper gets quickly stratified and even with the vent above the bed slightly open the water vapor is not circulated or vented.

Looking for a small AA battery fan; best case with thermostat.....don't want to use the Hawk batteries; at night the furnace is a large draw down as it is...

Phil

 

[nikonron]

12 volt dehumidifier. Ron

 

[rando]

I have one of the O2 Cool D-cell powered fan that does a good job of getting heat back into the bed area and break down the stratification: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001B16VT6/ref=twister_B00VN9ZD90?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

However, I don't think this really helps with condensation, the walls are still cold and their is still a lot of moisture in the air.

 

[Wallowa]

12 volt dehumidifier. Ron

How much current would a 12v dehumidifier need? I know nothing about dehumidifiers since we live in a very low ambient humidity environment in NE Oregon.

Ps...Found this

https://smile.amazon.com/Ivation-IVADM10-Small-Size-Thermo-Electric-Dehumidifier/dp/B00MQ7T038/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1482080617&sr=8-2&keywords=12volt+dehumidifier

Like the 9v adapter as an option....

 

[buckland]

Okay wait a minute!!! This is the first I heard of a dehumidifier for the camper.... does that mean it will be pluggable in a 12V socket in the camper? (not sure what the 9V adapter is for) or is this a 110 V? Anyone listening actually have one and tried it out? I would think this would easily fill over night in cool weather. I'd love first hand info!

 

[Wallowa]

Okay wait a minute!!! This is the first I heard of a dehumidifier for the camper.... does that mean it will be pluggable in a 12V socket in the camper? (not sure what the 9V adapter is for) or is this a 110 V? Anyone listening actually have one and tried it out? I would think this would easily fill over night in cool weather. I'd love first hand info!

I am confused also...I think some are AC powered w/9v adapters and a few are DC...this one for example is 9v powered...I 'assume' that means a 9v built in battery..

.https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00ZWYNG3C?psc=1

I did read that you should select the size with a sufficient reservoir to hold the water expected...one if not all have an auto shutoff when reservoir is full...

In combo with a AA/D cell powered small fan, a dehumidifier might significantly reduce moisture and resultant ice..but for me both would have to be powered independently of the FWC batteries.

But who knows!

Phil

 

[buckland]

I just found this .......(disclaimer... "I know nothing" ... (sergeant Shultz)....

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mini-Dehumidifier/10750086#about-item

OR TOP OF THE LINE
https://www.eva-dry.com/dehumidifiers/eva-dry-2200-electric-dehumidifier/

Would love to have a bunch of input on this..... the lower the electric draw and most water removed.... that would be great.

 

[nikonron]

Interesting, may have to try one out. Ron

 

[takesiteasy]

I just found this .......(disclaimer... "I know nothing" ... (sergeant Shultz)....

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mini-Dehumidifier/10750086#about-item

OR TOP OF THE LINE
https://www.eva-dry.com/dehumidifiers/eva-dry-2200-electric-dehumidifier/

Would love to have a bunch of input on this..... the lower the electric draw and most water removed.... that would be great.

This reminds me of that old saying- if it sounds too good to be true...

It seems these dehumidifiers work by using electricity to create a hot side and a cold side heat sink (the Peltier effect) to induce condensation which drips into a pan thereby drying out the air. Well, if you think about it, the whole camper is a "cold side" which is why condensation is a problem in the first place. I doubt a small cold surface inside the machine is going to make any difference when compared to the amount of cold surface in the camper, especially in the presence of significant water vapor generators like people and unvented heating appliances.

I'd be interested in hearing the result of testing that anyone does.

 

[Wallowa]

This reminds me of that old saying- if it sounds too good to be true...

It seems these dehumidifiers work by using electricity to create a hot side and a cold side heat sink (the Peltier effect) to induce condensation which drips into a pan thereby drying out the air. Well, if you think about it, the whole camper is a "cold side" which is why condensation is a problem in the first place. I doubt a small cold surface inside the machine is going to make any difference when compared to the amount of cold surface in the camper, especially in the presence of significant water vapor generators like people and unvented heating appliances.

I'd be interested in hearing the result of testing that anyone does.

Very interesting and thanks...Question; Will the temperature differential [delta] between the hot side and cold side 'heat sink' in the dehumidifier be so much more than the surface temp differential or amount of surface area in the FWC that the dehumidifier might make a positive difference inside the camper? Could it over time dry out the camper?

I know that dehumidifiers come in different sizes and do have relative humidity/temp operational ranges; but all this is Greek to me!

Phil

 

[rando]

I haven't personally tried any of these dehumidifiers, but I am skeptical that they would help that much. They all appear to be Peltier based devices (aka thermoelectric coolers). This means that they are not going to be very efficient (water removed per watt of energy) and are not going to remove much water. Peltier modules can also only produce a modest temperature gradient (maybe 30 - 40F) so there is a good chance that the dehumidifier won't be much colder than the walls of the liner - which would mean most of the moisture will still end up condensing on the huge area of the liner as opposed to the small area of the peltier in the dehumidifier.