okwilson
New Member
Oh no! I am almost finished with the upgrade to my 2016 Grandby and was advised to go with the isolated version of the Orion 12/12-30A. I have a couple of questions and will post here as soon as I can formulate them.
FWC Electrical basics and upgrading to lithium!
Oh no! I am almost finished with the upgrade to my 2016 Grandby and was advised to go with the isolated version of the Orion 12/12-30A. I have a couple of questions and will post here as soon as I can formulate them.
Don't worry, it's not a big deal. You will literally end up having both "sides" of the DCDC have their negative posts connected, that's all. It works exactly the same otherwise.okwilson said:
Jon R
Senior Member
I bought the isolated version intentionally and chose to run an isolated system. If you have questions about my installation feel free to PM me.okwilson said:
Would love to hear more about that too JonR!Jon R said:
okwilson
New Member
Thank you, Jon R.Jon R said:
Jon R
Senior Member
Sorry for the long post, but maybe it will be helpful in the future to someone thinking about the isolated versus non-isolated charger question.
I agree that the only reason to consider spending the extra $30 on an isolated charger is if you both 1) can do an isolated system because your camper electrical system can be isolated from the truck body, and 2) have some reason that isolation would be a benefit.
When I was deciding how to configure my system three years ago before my ordered camper was delivered, I read on here that the camper tiedowns did not connect to the metal frame of the camper, which turned out to be accurate. The anchors on the camper are mounted in the tub plywood and are not near any frame or siding metal. So that camper could be isolated.
I was already spending enough on the electrical power system that the $30 difference was trivial, so next i considered whether an isolated system might have a benefit. Being a system safety analyst in my day job, I thought through the possible failures of the camper power system, truck systems, and camp site power supplies. I also considered lightning threats. I didn’t see an obvious lightning benefit either way. However, I did decide that, in a non-isolated system, 120VAC hot shorts to ground in the camper itself or in a connected campsite power source have the potential to put a brief but large voltage spike on the truck’s negative until a circuit breaker or fuse opens. That’s because the actual ground rod in the dirt may be hundreds of feet away and circuit breakers and fuses take some time to open.
I don’t know for sure what effect that voltage spike could have on the truck electronics, but I decided I’d rather protect my truck’s computers from such a spike due to the high cost and inconvenience of damaging one of those computers. However, now that I’ve used the camper for three seasons, I know that I will never connect to a campground power supply, and in fact I never power the 120VAC system in my camper. So my original reasons for wanting an isolated system no longer exists for me.
So that was why I decided to go with the isolated model back when i was installing the power system. The ground connections are easy either way if you have a negative bus bar.
If you want to run isolated and you have a camper with marker lights, you will want to be able to wire them to the truck marker light circuit. To do that, the ground for the camper marker lights needs to be isolated from the camper ground system and connected to the truck ground. When I first wired the camper I could not isolate the marker light ground at the main ground bus bar and, based on the light behavior, assumed the right side marker light ground had been tied to the right rear flood light ground in the rear wall. I therefore gave up on running an isolated system and connected the camper and truck grounds via a 3 amp fuse to get the marker lights to work when the truck markers are on.
However, last summer I discovered a secondary negative bus bar in the right side cabinet that is connected to the primary negative bus bar. I haven’t actually done the testing yet, but I expect I’ll find the right marker circuit ground is connected to that bus bar and I’ll be able to isolate the marker grounds and run the system isolated as I originally intended if I decide to take on an unnecessary wiring project just to satisfy my OCD tendencies. Another project for the Spring. Or not.
Bottom line, as Vic said it’s very easy to wire an isolated charger as a non-isolated charger by connecting both the input and output negatives on the charger to your main battery negative bus bar, and connecting the negative wire from the truck to that bus bar. Most people don’t bother running an isolated system in a truck camper.
I agree that the only reason to consider spending the extra $30 on an isolated charger is if you both 1) can do an isolated system because your camper electrical system can be isolated from the truck body, and 2) have some reason that isolation would be a benefit.
When I was deciding how to configure my system three years ago before my ordered camper was delivered, I read on here that the camper tiedowns did not connect to the metal frame of the camper, which turned out to be accurate. The anchors on the camper are mounted in the tub plywood and are not near any frame or siding metal. So that camper could be isolated.
I was already spending enough on the electrical power system that the $30 difference was trivial, so next i considered whether an isolated system might have a benefit. Being a system safety analyst in my day job, I thought through the possible failures of the camper power system, truck systems, and camp site power supplies. I also considered lightning threats. I didn’t see an obvious lightning benefit either way. However, I did decide that, in a non-isolated system, 120VAC hot shorts to ground in the camper itself or in a connected campsite power source have the potential to put a brief but large voltage spike on the truck’s negative until a circuit breaker or fuse opens. That’s because the actual ground rod in the dirt may be hundreds of feet away and circuit breakers and fuses take some time to open.
I don’t know for sure what effect that voltage spike could have on the truck electronics, but I decided I’d rather protect my truck’s computers from such a spike due to the high cost and inconvenience of damaging one of those computers. However, now that I’ve used the camper for three seasons, I know that I will never connect to a campground power supply, and in fact I never power the 120VAC system in my camper. So my original reasons for wanting an isolated system no longer exists for me.
So that was why I decided to go with the isolated model back when i was installing the power system. The ground connections are easy either way if you have a negative bus bar.
If you want to run isolated and you have a camper with marker lights, you will want to be able to wire them to the truck marker light circuit. To do that, the ground for the camper marker lights needs to be isolated from the camper ground system and connected to the truck ground. When I first wired the camper I could not isolate the marker light ground at the main ground bus bar and, based on the light behavior, assumed the right side marker light ground had been tied to the right rear flood light ground in the rear wall. I therefore gave up on running an isolated system and connected the camper and truck grounds via a 3 amp fuse to get the marker lights to work when the truck markers are on.
However, last summer I discovered a secondary negative bus bar in the right side cabinet that is connected to the primary negative bus bar. I haven’t actually done the testing yet, but I expect I’ll find the right marker circuit ground is connected to that bus bar and I’ll be able to isolate the marker grounds and run the system isolated as I originally intended if I decide to take on an unnecessary wiring project just to satisfy my OCD tendencies. Another project for the Spring. Or not.
Bottom line, as Vic said it’s very easy to wire an isolated charger as a non-isolated charger by connecting both the input and output negatives on the charger to your main battery negative bus bar, and connecting the negative wire from the truck to that bus bar. Most people don’t bother running an isolated system in a truck camper.
Jon R
Senior Member
Here’s a picture of my charger installation and bus bars just for fun. Don’t be confused by those white ropes with crimps on the ends. They are just carrying handles for the LiFePO battery. The actual battery connections are an SB175 connector on the back side of the battery.
Attachments
Jon R
Senior Member
CPT Davenport
El Pescador
"I was crunched for time before the trip so I did not tackle the wiring upgrade or a DC/DC converter to maximize alternator charging but will likely do that at some point in the future. I found that i did not need it with my battery capacity and drive time for this trip. I do not have a smart alternator but dakota lithiums tech support told me that even if i did their batteries with the bms were fine this way. "
So you had no problems with charging lithium off the stock FWC charging system and wiring while driving?
I have a DC/DC charger but have not installed it yet. I disconnected the wire from my alternator due the multiple threads on how bad it is to charge lithium w/o upgraded wire and the DC/DC in place. My solar keeps up pretty well with charging my 206ah SOK. Now that winter is upon us is when I push the limits and occasionally need some additional charging.
I haven't had any time to remove the camper, upgrade wire and install the DC/DC. It sure would be nice if I could just hook up the alternator again (as is) when my SOC gets low and it is cloudy.
I wonder if there are any other success stories like yours with lithium and a stock set up???
So you had no problems with charging lithium off the stock FWC charging system and wiring while driving?
I have a DC/DC charger but have not installed it yet. I disconnected the wire from my alternator due the multiple threads on how bad it is to charge lithium w/o upgraded wire and the DC/DC in place. My solar keeps up pretty well with charging my 206ah SOK. Now that winter is upon us is when I push the limits and occasionally need some additional charging.
I haven't had any time to remove the camper, upgrade wire and install the DC/DC. It sure would be nice if I could just hook up the alternator again (as is) when my SOC gets low and it is cloudy.
I wonder if there are any other success stories like yours with lithium and a stock set up???
okwilson
New Member
I am nearing the end of my 2016 Grandby’s lithium upgrade odyssey. I started this project knowing next to nothing about dc electrical; now I understand a bit more, but not much. I had to replace the two Exide Edge AGMs, and lithium was the way to go. I thought that I would get this done with just a new battery and dc/ac charger; and I didn’t want to spend the extra grand or so to have someone else do it for me. So, I am essentially stumbling my way through the project. Here is my current dilemma:
In the original factory setup inside the camper the 10g neg cable (from starter battery) connected to the two AGM batteries via a ground bus bar located just above the battery compartment, so that is how I ran the new 6g:
>ground bus (upgraded, beefier than original)
>Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30 isolated charger
>BVM712 Smart shunt
>Battle Born 100Ah LiFePO4
After installing the cable, I decided to double check with Sean at Dragonfly Energy (who sold me the battery, ac/dc charger, dc/dc charger, and monitor) about going through the ground bus and he said he would not advise doing that. Next, I spoke with Zack at the FWC factory in CA. He said that I was going to have a problem with the camper running lights. I could not grasp what he was telling me, but it involved connecting (or isolating?) all ground buss bars to (from?) the truck-side ground. (If I could have recorded the conversation then maybe I could have made sense of it.)
If someone could straighten me out, I would really appreciate it! Should I bypass the ground bus bar? And what about the running lights?
My new gear:
100Ah Battle Born LiFePO4
Progressive Dynamics 45A ac/dc charger
Victron Orian-TR Smart 12/12-30A Isolated charger
Victron BMV-712 monitor
6awg welding cable for the dc/dc circuit
Blue Sea 285 60A breakers (x2)
Anderson SB50 plug
My Zamp ZS-30A solar charger seems to be adequate for my single rigid panel (not sure of rating).
Here is the routing from the starter battery to the camper battery:
Positive: bat > breaker > SB50 > Orian charger > breaker > bat
Negative: bat > SB50 > ground bus bar > Orian charger > BVM712/shunt > bat
Thank you!
In the original factory setup inside the camper the 10g neg cable (from starter battery) connected to the two AGM batteries via a ground bus bar located just above the battery compartment, so that is how I ran the new 6g:
>ground bus (upgraded, beefier than original)
>Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30 isolated charger
>BVM712 Smart shunt
>Battle Born 100Ah LiFePO4
After installing the cable, I decided to double check with Sean at Dragonfly Energy (who sold me the battery, ac/dc charger, dc/dc charger, and monitor) about going through the ground bus and he said he would not advise doing that. Next, I spoke with Zack at the FWC factory in CA. He said that I was going to have a problem with the camper running lights. I could not grasp what he was telling me, but it involved connecting (or isolating?) all ground buss bars to (from?) the truck-side ground. (If I could have recorded the conversation then maybe I could have made sense of it.)
If someone could straighten me out, I would really appreciate it! Should I bypass the ground bus bar? And what about the running lights?
My new gear:
100Ah Battle Born LiFePO4
Progressive Dynamics 45A ac/dc charger
Victron Orian-TR Smart 12/12-30A Isolated charger
Victron BMV-712 monitor
6awg welding cable for the dc/dc circuit
Blue Sea 285 60A breakers (x2)
Anderson SB50 plug
My Zamp ZS-30A solar charger seems to be adequate for my single rigid panel (not sure of rating).
Here is the routing from the starter battery to the camper battery:
Positive: bat > breaker > SB50 > Orian charger > breaker > bat
Negative: bat > SB50 > ground bus bar > Orian charger > BVM712/shunt > bat
Thank you!
OKWilson, that sounds like a nice setup. I interpret "going through the ground bus" perhaps differently than Sean did. He may have thought you were using the truck frame as the return ground? Otherwise, I see no problem with using a ground bus bar there.
And Zack's comments about the running lights are because of the "isolated" version you have of the DCDC unit. As JonR said above, you can join the grounds to get them working.
I hope that helps, and please feel free to ask more questions!
And Zack's comments about the running lights are because of the "isolated" version you have of the DCDC unit. As JonR said above, you can join the grounds to get them working.
I hope that helps, and please feel free to ask more questions!
craig333
Riley's Human
I should create a good wiring diagram of my camper. So I charge the lithium battery to near full. Sits overnight and in the morning the S.O.C is down to 85%. Seems like a lot considering only the fridge is running.
Also in the morning when the grid heater is running the truck voltage doesn't come up until the grid heater shuts off. Before that happens I turn on my ham radio which briefly shows voltage on power up. I'm seeing 14.5 or more. Baffles me because it can't go back through the DC/DC charger. Finally the light goes off. I never disconnected the original 10ga wiring from FWC when I added the 6ga wire. Bypasses the DC/DC controller. So presumably that is why my State of charge goes so low, its charging the truck batteries. Also why I see 14+ before the alternator kicks in.
Instead of removing the 10ga wire I'm going to install a simple spst switch inline. That will be normally off but if I'm camped for a long enough period I can throw the switch and let my solar top off the truck batteries. At least thats the plan. Would have been so much easier if could have done all the work at the same time instead of piecemealing it together over the years.
Also in the morning when the grid heater is running the truck voltage doesn't come up until the grid heater shuts off. Before that happens I turn on my ham radio which briefly shows voltage on power up. I'm seeing 14.5 or more. Baffles me because it can't go back through the DC/DC charger. Finally the light goes off. I never disconnected the original 10ga wiring from FWC when I added the 6ga wire. Bypasses the DC/DC controller. So presumably that is why my State of charge goes so low, its charging the truck batteries. Also why I see 14+ before the alternator kicks in.
Instead of removing the 10ga wire I'm going to install a simple spst switch inline. That will be normally off but if I'm camped for a long enough period I can throw the switch and let my solar top off the truck batteries. At least thats the plan. Would have been so much easier if could have done all the work at the same time instead of piecemealing it together over the years.
Jon R
Senior Member
Elaborating a bit on what Vic said immediately above, if you have an isolated charger but choose to operate it as a non-isolated charger, you can wire your negative connections to the truck and the charger at least two different ways.
One way is to wire it up as though it’s going to be isolated, and then connect the truck and camper ground system with a small gage wire and appropriate small fuse to allow the return current for the marker lights to flow to the truck. If failure happens that drives excess current through that ground connection (such a a hot short of your truck positive wire to the camper negative), the fuse blows and the system becomes isolated and your marker lights stop working. You would want to troubleshoot if that fuse blows. I used 16 gage wire and a 3 amp fuse because my lights are LED and and the marker only draw about an amp. The 6awg negative from the truck goes straight to the input to the dc to dc charger (only), and the output negative from the charger connects to your main negative bus bar near the battery. (The battery negative is connected to that same main bus bar via the metering shunt.)
The other option is to wire it just like you would for a non-isolated charger, but you run two 6awg wires from the main negative bus bar to the input negative and output negative of the charger. (If you have the non-isolated charger it just has one negative terminal and you’d use a single wire to connect that to the main negative bus bar). The 6awg negative wire from the truck main battery negative in this case is connected to the main negative bus bar near the camper battery.
One way is to wire it up as though it’s going to be isolated, and then connect the truck and camper ground system with a small gage wire and appropriate small fuse to allow the return current for the marker lights to flow to the truck. If failure happens that drives excess current through that ground connection (such a a hot short of your truck positive wire to the camper negative), the fuse blows and the system becomes isolated and your marker lights stop working. You would want to troubleshoot if that fuse blows. I used 16 gage wire and a 3 amp fuse because my lights are LED and and the marker only draw about an amp. The 6awg negative from the truck goes straight to the input to the dc to dc charger (only), and the output negative from the charger connects to your main negative bus bar near the battery. (The battery negative is connected to that same main bus bar via the metering shunt.)
The other option is to wire it just like you would for a non-isolated charger, but you run two 6awg wires from the main negative bus bar to the input negative and output negative of the charger. (If you have the non-isolated charger it just has one negative terminal and you’d use a single wire to connect that to the main negative bus bar). The 6awg negative wire from the truck main battery negative in this case is connected to the main negative bus bar near the camper battery.
Jon R
Senior Member
It sounds like you left your original battery isolator in place and connected. Unless you want energy from your camper battery to be able to go to the truck battery, I would disconnect the original positive from the truck and disconnect the wire that goes from the isolator to the camper dc fuse panel to avoid the noise and small current draw of the isolator relay coil.craig333 said:
Also fyi, running evening lighting and fan and then the fridge and furnace overnight typically takes my 200 ah battery down to 85-87%.
rubberlegs
back country campers
Using 15% is pretty typical per night with our 65 liter fridge (front door, not top door), for our 100ah battery, on moderate temperature nights.
Then again on a recent trip in 17F temperatures, our fridge didn't have to do work ! Our salad froze... but we ate it anyway.
Then again on a recent trip in 17F temperatures, our fridge didn't have to do work ! Our salad froze... but we ate it anyway.
Jon R
Senior Member
I find that until I get into extremes in hot or cold weather the furnace and fridge kind of trade off and the battery usage is similar whether the day high is 40 or 80F. I have a 130L fridge, hence a bit higher energy use.rubberlegs said:
craig333
Riley's Human
With my 250ah of AGM batteries I'd rarely go below 95%. A typical camping night, fridge, some heater, lights would take it down to about 85%. With the 10ga wire disconnected I'll be interested to see what it says in the morning. The other possibility is my used LiPo4 battery has much less capacity than I expected.
ridinlarge10
New Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2023
- Messages
- 3
Cpt Davenport said:
No I did not have any issues with charging the lithium on the stock fwc wiring harness.
craig333
Riley's Human
Well I was correct. After disconnecting the 10ga charge wire I'm only down to 93% SOC.
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