Interior Icing in Winter

[danman4142]

Hi all,

I've spent the last several months researching and reading this forum, and am getting pretty close to pulling the trigger on a new Hawk Shell from FWC. Made a trip to Woodland to see the campers first hand and get my hands on the various options, and overall have been pretty impressed with everything i've seen.

I would be looking to order the shell with rollover couch, forced air heater, yakima tracks, fantastic fan, and an arctic pack.

One holdup that I've been having is some of the cold weather condensation issues i've read about. I live in Alaska (Anchorage area) and one of my primary uses for this camper would be for winter ski trips. I wouldnt be spending a lot of time in the Alaskan interior, so realistically overnight winter temps are going to be between -10F and 20F.

Based on what i've read, utilizing the arctic pack would effectively minimize ice/condensation on the side walls, but it sounds like some people have experienced significant condensation on the ceiling. I can live with some level of condensation and understand that this is probably inevitable with this type of camper. However, i dont want drips coming down on the interior from the ceiling.

What have people experienced in these conditions? Am I being unrealistic to expect to use a FWC heavily in winter?

Thanks for the feedback.
-Dan

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Dan, we haven't been in temps as low as what you're expecting, but the ceiling wasn't where we found most of the condensation. Our experience was finding it behind the arctic pack, on the vinyl, near the head side of the bed. We peeled the liner back, then dried it with a towell. Ventilation helps reduce the amount.

 

[Ted]

Dan,

On a recent trip to Yellowstone it got down to 15 F outside and 22 F inside. The entire ceiling was covered in frost. On similar cold nights with the outside temp low but inside temp warmer from the heater running we have had less frost and more condensation on the ceiling, but it does freeze along the aluminum framing.

So in the temps you are describing I would absolutely expect frost on the inside of any soft sided camper. Also, the arctic pack does not stop the condensation, you just don't see it. It still forms on the inside of the cold surface, which is now hidden from view by the arctic pack. Some members have improved the condensation problem by wrapping the outside of the canvas with reflectix after popping the top, keeping the canvas from becoming so cold. Not sure how you could do an exterior insulation on the roof, though.

 

[idahoron]

I have stayed once in temps that cold last January. I also saw more condensation near my head. Even though I have the thermal pack I still see about the same maybe a little less condensation. I have tried forced air electric heat and a buddy heater. What works the best is ventilation. Someone here suggested that I open a turnbuckle door. That works well and helps to get air flowing. I never had any trouble with dripping from the ceiling at -5 if I remember the temp right. I too use a towel to wipe down the condensation. Condensation is a part of this type of camper. Some have talked about condensation under the bed but I have not seen it yet.

 

[griz]

Since you are looking at a shell model, you may consider a small wood stove.That will solve the problem. There is no way around it. Dew point etc., R-factor. With propane for heating moisture is there no matter what camper/trailer you have. Been camping in wet and cool/cold condition an the only ticket is a wall tent an wood stove. Like most things there is pros and con's.
For sure get the camper they are handy.....

 

[takesiteasy]

My experience is that you will get condensation and frost no matter what you do in very cold temps. The problem is less severe in a dry climate where the air holds less moisture but bringing snow and warm people with wet clothes into the camper adds a lot of moisture to the air. Ventilation definitely helps but increases the load on the furnace which uses more battery (depending how warm you want to be). The catalytic-type heaters add even more moisture into the mix. The aluminum frame conducts the cold right to the inside surface so no matter how warm the camper is, the frame is cold and you will get frost or liquid condensation wherever the frame contacts the inside surface, walls and ceiling. I have considered the feasibility of removing the paneling and putting a layer of foam over the frame to reduce the heat loss (what to do at the window frames would be a problem). Ditto on the vinyl behind the arctic pac. Insulating the outside of the vinyl with reflectix or something similar would help (I plan to try this eventually) but I doubt would eliminate the problem in severe cold. Take some towels along to dry things off periodically. If you are careful to dry the camper out after trips, I think the problem is manageable, and sure beats a tent or paying for a hotel room every night, assuming one is even available where you want to be camping.

 

[Kispiox]

Giving the top a pop up with heavy snow loads is a problem. The snow needs to be removed first, especially if wet snow. Once up no issue holding new snow and it will come down VERY FAST. I have been thinking of adding insulation under the cab-over to keep cold from radiating and also mitigate under mattress condensation. There is no perfect one tool fits all, but if you want to get off the grid, through small holes in the bush, over uneven ground it's the best there is. If you are only doing short stays in such conditions you will like a FWC. The longer your on the grid expected usage in such conditions the more you may want to consider a different tool.

 

[takesiteasy]

Snow on the roof is a good point. I have heard of some people who take a snow rake along to be able to pull the snow off. I have dumped a bunch on my head when it slid off as the roof came down. The snow load can be significant and as Kispiox says, a roof with significant snow can come down fast, even with roof lifting struts.

 

[Samo]

Have you looked at Hallmark?

Might be a better fit for your application.

 

[danman4142]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, really good info.

Sounds like some level of condensation is unavoidable in the cold. For the most part I would only be doing 1-2 night outings in the winter, so I wouldn't expect the cumulative effects to be too significant. I have access to heated storage where I could dry the camper between trips. I didn't really look too closely at the roof liner when I was in Woodland, I assume that it is non-absorbent and relatively mold resistant as long as I dry out after each trip? Anyone experienced mold issues in the camper that could be considered "unavoidable" (i.e. despite popping it up to dry after every trip you still have mold)?

I'm not really concerned with the snow loading, I would plan to keep some sort of rake along, and will probably also purchase on the of the speaker stand rods to assist with lifting and lowering the roof when needed. A side benefit of the snow might be that it acts as insulation...haha.

The wood stove is an interesting idea. Has anyone on the forum successfully put one in to a FWC?

Samo, I did look at Hallmark briefly, but my impression was that they tend to be heavier and substantially more expensive (although very nice). Are they insulated differently from the FWC?

-Dan

 

[longhorn1]

Dan,

Hallmark and Outfitter are high end pop-ups that have a one piece fiberglass roof, thus no metal that acts like a conductor. With that said both have heated basements and you can get a heated duct in the cab over. I don't remember reading anything about condensation issues with those campers, but I would assume it would be the same with the liner. I spent 2 years researching pop-ups before I purchased my FWC. I was sold on the Hallmark, but with all of the options I was close to $45,000, almost double what I paid for my loaded Grandby. I purchase HyperVent Marine to place under the mattress and during our cold temperature trips, I found no condensation under the mattress. One night in the Smokies it dropped to 32 and there was some frost and condensation on the roof frame, lift hinges, and between the thermal liner and the camper liner. I used a towel in the morning and opened things up, and turned on the fan and that seemed to dry things out quickly. After both of our October trips, I opened everything up and let everything air out, using the fan to help. I'm sure the more we camp in colder temperatures, I will experiment with ventilation, open turnbuckle door, slightly open window, furnace set in the 50's. After reading numerous posts, I don't think you will ever get rid of it all, but it maybe possible to manage this better. With FWC and All Terrain you get very well built campers priced very competitively. For me it is something minor to deal with. The chances of me every camping in temperatures below freezing will be very few. I'm married to a Texan and she has made it clear she won't be doing any winter camping. Good luck with your camper selection. JD

 

[camper101]

Yes you're going to get plenty of condensation on the liner (not just a little) and the ceiling. Only thing I'd add is get a small fan (either wired 12v or battery powered like an O2 fan) to blow behind the lifting panels and behind the arctic pack when you get home. A heated storage space sounds like it would help a lot.

If you can dry it out every few days I think it helps (that's why I bring the extra fan to blow directly on the vinyl). The vinyl doesn't absorb, but I think I've got a tiny bit of color change in the corners, probably from moisture that sat for too long. In the winter we mostly use our like you do: 1-2 nights for a ski chalet, and we usually throw in a week or two continuous. The camper sees at least 40 nights of cold winter nights every year (the first year was a week in the southern UT desert with daytime highs of 10, and all we had was a catalytic, so there was plenty of frost around) -- it's just bound to happen but it's holding up fine.

 

[Ramblinman]

I just came back from a hunt in which we used my Hawk with two people. No heat from the forced air furnace during the night there was considerable condensation. My remedy was to leave the furnace on at the lowest setting with lots of ventilation and this helped a lot. Also I left the top up when I was away from my camper doing my business. I came back to a completely dry unit. I think the condensation issue is just something that you have to manage ... and dry out soonest.

 

[BobD]

A lot of the condensation comes from breathing during the night. One SOLO First Aid Course I took mentioned that most people exhale approximately 1 liter of moisture during the night. Multiply that by two people in a small space and it adds up.

 

[Roger]

I camp every November and December in Yosemite with my 2 kids; it does it down to 20 degrees Fahrenheit or less at night. Yes, you will get some condensation/icing along the aluminum runners and the corners. 1 or 2 nights out should not present a problem. The worst I've had was when we were there for 5 nights and it never got above 32. On the last day I had to run the heater for about an hour before I could lower the top due to it basically being "frozen" in an upright position due to the condensation freezing to the arctic layer.

I could not get the front straps to close either as the liner was just too stiff from frost, I was finally able to strap the front down when we got to Oakdale.

When you get back take out the top mattress so you get some air circulation up there. I forgot to do that once and I suffered from some mold on the wood runners on the ceiling and 2 or 3 rusted staples. I think I let it dry out for at least 5 days, but that evidently was not long enough.