Is solar worth it?

[DonC]

Don, when you get it back from American RV run the same tests you did in your first chart to make sure the volts stay up around
12.7-14 while driving or parked in the sun.

I will do that for sure. Other than replace the batteries and install the new lower vent it is not clear what they did for analysis. When I picked it up on Sat the maintenance guy wasn't there to talk to. I'm going to send an email asking them exactly what diagnosis they did.

I was told that FWC current panels are Zamp and they are considering going to Go Power. I asked about the bendable panels and they did not seem supportive of those, but from everything I've read here it is not clear why you would not use those.

I have leaned a lot on this thread and appreciate all the time that you and others much more knowledgeable than I spent responding. I need to read this several times and take some notes. GIven how quickly this reached 9 pages of responses and several thousand hits, this is clearly an important issue, even with all the solar threads that already exist. Other than having an under spec'd solar system from the factory, which I will remedy, it sounds like there are a few other things to look at like size of wiring, etc.

I still don't fully understand all the factors but it sounds like it is pretty a simply math/amp calculation. It FWC had just told me at purchase that even with the $$ investment in solar and two batteries I would be dead in 3 days, then my expectations would be different. But that didn't happen. I was led to believe, based on the typical use that I described to them, that I was good to go with the system they spec'd for me. Both FWC and American RV have been very helpful and friendly, and no cost to me for what they have done. But even with all of my problems and interactions I've had with them, it seems they have not looked at the math, like many on this thread have done, and regardless of what else is found, just come out and said I need more solar.

 

[pvstoy]

Don at this point since you now have the truck and camper back, take a volt meter, if you don't own one go out and get one, even those Harbor Freight red ones for free coupons will do. And see what the batteries volts are showing. Start the truck and see what voltage it is now, it should be up in the 14 volts. If not then the battery separator is not opened up to charge yet ( did I mentioned I don't like those). This might be better at night when the system is not being feed by solar. I would have a switch that I could turn off or break the solar flow into my system so I could run each way of charging, household plug in, alternator or solar and diagnose for problems.

If solar is putting out you should see a increase in voltage at the batteries.

At night when the batteries are not getting any charge, notice your resting voltage ( after batteries have been fully charged). Then with the volt meter on the batteries start turning stuff on and then off and notice what voltage drops with each draw.

Doing this will start getting you to know your system and how things work. So when you are out camping you can better recognize problem sooner and make adjustments or fix problems before batteries go flat.

You have not told us yet what model refer you have installed, would be good to know the amps draw on your system.

 

[DrJ]

Don,
I just got back from a trip to FWC in Woodland. It sounds like they get more questions about this topic than anything else - by a huge margin.
I've measured by a trimetric monitor my camper power use and studied this topic for sometime.
I can tell you a few simple things I've learned.
1- You have no idea what's going on without a monitor. You are always only guessing.
2- if you have a compressor fridge you need enough battery power to run your system for a minimum of 1-1.5 days without a charging source. 2-3 days would be better.
Again - you have no idea how much this is without a monitor.
3- You need enough solar to charge AND run your electrical equipment during peak solar hours. This differs by where you camp and the time of the year. Winter in Northern Idaho is not too great. My system in Las Vegas in Summer time is amazing.
You don't know how much solar to get if you don't know how much power you use.
4- Unless you are operating in peak summer conditions in bright sunlight, the stock FWC 100 watt solar isn't going to cut it for most compressor fridges. They don't offer enough battery power or solar power to run the system independently. So you need some or all of the following:
Larger batteries
More solar
Back up changing system - a generator or your truck.

Here's an example of my system that works.
Consumption:
I use 60-80 amp hours a day during the summer.
Setup:
200 amp hour battery bank
340 watts of solar - charges about 15 amps per hour
Back up system is my truck

I can go 1-1.5 days without any power.
Solar runs everything (about 5 amps per hour) and still charges about 10 amps per hour.

The backup truck charging is another issue but can be fixed too. It works but has issues.

 

[bsharp007]

Don, I have pretty much the same setup and expereince. Stock 2013 FWC Hawk, 90 watt solar panel with (2) 24 group AGM batteries. I always start my trips with fully charged batteries and precool the refrigerator. I get about 3-4 days max before the batteries start getting low. So far I have added a Morningstar MPPT solar controller to replace the less efficient one FWC installed with a higher Amp load in anticipation of adding aother solar panel on top.

he frustrating part is I asked all the right questions before ordering the camper to the salesman who was supposedly asking technicians with more knowledge.
Questions like would this setup be able to run the refrigerator (80L Dometic) for a long period of time? The answers from FWC were always, "you should be fine". Well after my very first trip, a 3 week trip to Baja, I ended up throwing away spoiled food from the refrigerator. I ended up using a cheap styrofoam cooler for the rest of the trip. I did everything I could to aviod that situation.
I never called the factory salesman because his attitude a day after I drove home with the camper and found several things wrong with the camper left something to be desired. He acted like I was PITA literally hours after I
took pessesion of a brand new camper. I actually sent the owner of FWC a personal email about my customer experience with buying two brand new campers in a 4 year period, just the facts and details with names ommited. I never heard anything back of course.



I bought a new FWC 2 years ago with factory solar and 2 batteries. I have never been able to go more than 3 days without the fridge stopping because of battery drain even with full sun and driving 2 - 3 hours per day. I throw food out on every trip and have seldom used my lights or any accessories. I took time off work to take it to FWC, who found nothing. I've taken it to American RV, the new distributor in So Cal, 3 times, involving 6 Saturday mornings, and 2 weeks of rental cars. The first two times they did find issues with the factory install which they fixed, but had no effect. Now they are installing a second bank of vents and giving me two new batteries.

FWC has been good through all of this and all work has been done through warranty. But I am two + years into owning this and feel that I have never taken a normal trip where I've been able to enjoy using the camper and all of its accessories. I look at the voltage every stop.

I'm not convinced that this next step is going to solve the problem.

I never camp at a campground. If I can see someone I find another location. Should I expect to be able to go more than three days given that I almost aways have full sun and drive 2 - 3 hours per day? If not how do you deal with it out in the boonies where there is no place to plug in and recharge?

It seems that many here fight their solar and do lots of DIY upgrades. Should that be necessary above and beyond a factory install? Is it worth the hassles? Do people keep spending money and time trying to make solar work because it's "cool" to have solar? I had never had a camper/RV when I bought this and with the sales story and the great added expense, I thought the solar would work, and I thought it would be cool too. I'm considering switching to propane if this next "fix" doesn't work. Why don't more people go with a propane fridge? It seems to be much cheaper, you can go weeks, and it "just works". Is there something I don't get about solar vs propane?

 

[pvstoy]

I agree DrJ that some type of meter to record how many amps going out and what is coming is a must. Looking at volts won't cut it because you could be showing a resting volt of 12.6 even though your battery is only 80 percent of full capacity. I have a Trimetric 2030 monitor that I have recorded my usage and now ready to buy panels for my usage. I plan to also use their SC-2030 controller that talks to the monitor and it is a 4 stage charge controller.

Other than solar bob's web page there is a amsolar.com http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/cpage_9/rv_solar_education.html
that has some rv solar education that can help people understand better. You can find panels elsewhere cheaper though.

bsharp007 when I got my FWC I had to fix things and experienced some quality control issues also. Looks like from what I have been hearing is to let FWC make the camper solar ready with a plug on the roof and use some real honest multi strand 8 or 10 gauge wire and let the end user match panel and controller for what the user needs. Because FWC really can't be that salesperson or supplier for what is best for your usage.

 

[photohc]

I'm fairly new to truck campers and took delivery of our new Hawk in May 2013. We've since put on about 30 nights of experience. Mine was ordered with the solar plugs on the roof and back and two AGM batteries. I wasn't sure how much solar I needed and based on my preliminary review of cost, I felt I could install a better system at a better price point during my order process.

I have since installed and reconfigured my solar setup three times. I first installed a 100w panel on the roof with a Morningstar MPPT controller. The biggest amp hog is my refrigerator, a 80L Dometic. Expect a 4.3-4.7 amp draw during the on cycle. Depending on the ambient temperature, this can be on 50-80% of the time. With the 100w panel, I found that it will barely keep up with the usage during the day, and recharge the batteries for the following nights usage. At night, lights only play a small role in usage as I converted all lights to LED's. Big savings here.

I decided to add a 150w panel to the roof (total 250w) and this resulted in the solar system keeping up with the daily use and able to recharge the batteries to 100% by the end of day, if I had good sun.

In my third modification, I removed the 100w panel (and the weight) and purchased a light weight (100w, 3lbs) flexible panel that would get plugged in the back during the day. This last change made a big difference because i'm able to direct the panel to the sun. This one last change allowed the solar system to recharge the two batteries by 2pm each day.

One other change that made a difference was the addition of an exhaust fan to the refrigerator cabinet area. A small computer fan was wired to the same circuit of the evaporator coil fan, so that the exhaust fan would turn on when ever the refrigerator cycled on.

Hope this helps. I like this set up. My roof is lighter. The flexible panel sits in my back seat of my truck and is the second item that comes out when I'm camping. The panel on top of the roof helps to recharge during my driving days. This setup works for me.

 

[PaulT]

I have no complaints about the quality of electrical components FWC used on my 2014 Hawk. Switching to Blue Sea marine fuse blocks and other Blue Sea components was a great idea. In general FWC seems to have a strong desire to improve the product per customer feedback.

My complaint has to do with lack of availability of wiring diagrams for the campers. In particular, battery charging is an ongoing discussion here and without specific wiring diagrams for each camper, it is very difficult to troubleshoot or update components. With an accurate wiring diagram, I could determine how to add electrical loads and power sources as desired or needed.

I really need to understand how and what was intended in wiring a smart solar battery charger, a smart AC powered battery charger, and a dumb automotive alternator through a voltage isolator to the same two batteries. Which one takes precedence in different conditions such as:
1. In my driveway with the AC plugged in to cool the fridge before a trip, strong sunlight on the panels and I start the truck to cool the truck interior before a trip.
2. Camping with sunshine and electrical hookup or small generator running.
3. Driving in good sunshine.

a. If the solar charger is in absorption phase and either the truck is started or the AC is plugged in, what happens to the charge controller's charging algorithm?
b. If I am running the truck in overcast conditions to charge the batteries and the sun suddenly emerges to provide adequate charging current, what happens at the voltage sensing relay?
c. How does a shadow drifting over the PV panel (from a cloud or overpass) affect the charging of the battery when either AC power is attached or when driving?

If we can document the wiring and understand changing conditions on the various charging scenarios, we can spend more time worrying about taking photos, cooking dinner, and hiking or fishing instead of worrying if our refrigerator will last the trip.

I'm beginning to wonder if a three way fridge with no DC hookup and a better selection of camper leveling blocks would have been a better choice. I could have dropped one of the batteries, and carried an extra propane bottle instead.

Sigh, decisions decisions
Paul

 

[mitch h]

This is a great discussion. I am planning on solar when I find another fwc or an atc. Keep it going. Mitch

 

[Smokecreek1]

FYI-I am sort of planning to head north for turkey day, so i went out and plugged in my truck to charge it up,soooo, what did the guages say before and after. I leave the camper on, turn off the power switch and turn off the frig untill i head out on adventures (usually w/in a week or two). My truck is parked in the sun, i have two blue top batteries, 2 100 watt solar panels and my comptroller shows the camper batteries at 14.1, charging and with a happy face on my Renology 30amp comptroller with all the other readings in the happy zone-sort of what it reads when my truck is parked and used around town and not out adventuring-no overloads etc, all systems go,. Plugged the land line in, pulled on the switch and turned on my CR-110 compressor frig/freezer., frig running, batteries charging and a little change in in the battery charge from 14.1 t0 13.7, so all systems go! Frig turned off, battery reads 14.1. Check at bed time and before i go in the morning. Normally it takes all night to charge up the batteries before i went solar, now just a few hours-again i'm parked in the sun and on a snow day here in the high desert, maybe the reads and times would be allot different, but my batteries always seem to read around 14.1 or so and are charging when it's light out. My solar seems to be working-but again I'm electrically challeged and depend on this site, friends and all those books to keekp things going !

Smoke

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

I like Smoke are somewhat electrical challenged.
I didn't think solar was so complicated.

My system, a 45w +60w panel 105w total. with watt meter and 30a 120 watt controller
1 interstate AGM battery 75ah.
1 Truchfridge compressor cooler
led lights normal usage for heat ,ect.
1 3 way fridge.
That's about it.
I do recharge my lap top,camera batteries things like that.

I have had no problems.
It's a simple system. I did all the work myself.
We do move around as we camp the rig doesn't sit in one place for more than a day or two.
The truck does a good job of charging the camper battery also.

Frank

 

[Bwht4x4]

I decided against the FWC solar option because it didn't seem like those small panels would do much. On my recent solar install I purposely over-engineered the system to be sure I didn't have the same problem and installed a Trimetic monitor. I ended up purchasing a 160 watt Grape Solar panel and to say it works well is an understatement. On a recent elk hunt I sat in the same spot for 5+ days without ever moving or starting my truck. The panel ran my Isotherm 85L compressor refrig, my LED lights, my heater (ran it a little bit) and charged the batteries each day. The way my system is set up now I could run indefinitely as long as I had sun every 1-2 days. To push through the cloudy days I'm thinking of engineering a 100 or 120 watt panel on a telescopic pole that I can attach to the jack stand brackets and raise 20 feet into the air and that will allow me to rotate it 360 degrees.

 

[deethe]

here's how I reasoned my solar system:

the solar panels need to be matched to the battery size which should be matched to the daily demand (or multiple of)

the limiting factors are battery dimensions and roof square footage. a size GC12 battery is about tops for a pair of 12 volts, 6 volts differ but require pairs, if one cell goes down i like having a 12 volt pair for redundancy.

here is a chart calculating the AH production of varying array sizes.

sizing the array to match battery AH enables batteries to reach full charge daily

 

[Hodakaguy]

I would size the panel for a higher AH capacity than you actually have, when the sun conditions are less than idea a "overkill" panel system will still provide usable power.

Hodakaguy

 

[Hodakaguy]

I decided against the FWC solar option because it didn't seem like those small panels would do much. On my recent solar install I purposely over-engineered the system to be sure I didn't have the same problem and installed a Trimetic monitor. I ended up purchasing a 160 watt Grape Solar panel and to say it works well is an understatement. On a recent elk hunt I sat in the same spot for 5+ days without ever moving or starting my truck. The panel ran my Isotherm 85L compressor refrig, my LED lights, my heater (ran it a little bit) and charged the batteries each day. The way my system is set up now I could run indefinitely as long as I had sun every 1-2 days. To push through the cloudy days I'm thinking of engineering a 100 or 120 watt panel on a telescopic pole that I can attach to the jack stand brackets and raise 20 feet into the air and that will allow me to rotate it 360 degrees.

Looks good, clean setup and nicer than gluing panels to the roof.

Hodakaguy

 

[ntsqd]

The anal, 1/10th of 1% guy in me drilled the rear edge of the panel frame with a 3/4" Unibit (taken to max size) and made the brackets to have a 1/4" in 30" slope. The holes to allow air exchange right up to the bottom of the panel itself (rather than capturing ~1" of hot air under it) and the slope to provide a high point for hot air escape and a low point for water drainage off the top. Where the truck sits when at home is nearly level.

 

[CamperCarl]

My enthusiasm for getting a solar retrofit from FWC is reduced by these reports . I hope to hear more news that FWC is all over this.

 

[Central Toast]

I hope you get your issue resolved. I agree with those who said that there is a bad connection somewhere, and also that an 80w panel is undersized for two batteries. IMO: solar and compressor fridge set up right = worth it. Set up wrong...

Here is my set up that has topped off my battery every day so far, and I have not dropped below 50% charge ever during a trip, even on rainy days.

2003 Tundra
2003 Hawk
140w panel
115 AH battery
$50 Monrningstar controller
Direct-line (no plug) 8 guage landscape wire from panel to controller
controller very close to battery (shortest wire run possible to minimize voltage drop)
NovaKool R2600 compressor fridge, no fan, installed in same compartment as stock Norcold 3-way (gained .5 cf of space--that's a six-pack!)

Like others, I would never go back to gas/3-way fridges, which I used for about 15 years.

 

[hebegebe]

I have a 2004 hawk that is not wired for solar. After purchase of 2-100W renogy panels and trimetric my challenge is to add a 10ga. solar wire to the roof. I have been searching past threads to find info on adding a wire in the factory fashion without success. Is there a way to get an additional wire along side the fan wire? It would be ideal to hide it but if that is impossible I will run it exposed I guess.

 

[ski3pin]

I have a 2004 hawk that is not wired for solar. After purchase of 2-100W renogy panels and trimetric my challenge is to add a 10ga. solar wire to the roof. I have been searching past threads to find info on adding a wire in the factory fashion without success. Is there a way to get an additional wire along side the fan wire? It would be ideal to hide it but if that is impossible I will run it exposed I guess.

This may help.....................

Wiring a FWC or ATC for a solar panel roof mount

 

[BillM]

Don and Hebe

I'd check out this blog if I were you : https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/

It makes a lot of sense to me what handybob says and sounds like most (maybe all?) RV solar installers are doing less than a stellar job, particularly when it comes to wiring.

Hebe, I think I would use a thicker gauge wire than 10 to avoid a large voltage drop from the panels to the controller.