Lift Panel Replacement Help

JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
1,140
Location
Minnesota
I am at the point where the lift panels on my '77 Grandby desperately need replacement. I have found 3 excellent tutorials:

Rich: http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/3267-rear-lift-panel-fabrication-and-replacement/
Being: http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/592-front-support/page-2
wvtradbow: http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/10761-this-old-granby-build/page-3

I think I remember others (including one that described how to replace the bungie tape to the soft side), but the computer I probably bookmarked them in is dead and either my skill in searching (probable) or the search engine sucks.

If anyone knows of others, I would appreciate the links.

Thanks,
jim
 
More....

scheefdog's 87 Fleet refurb -- see posts 23 (new liner) and 34 (new lift panels).

Barko1's lift panel replacement on a Grandby

PokyBro's 81 Grandby-to-Hawk project-- see posts 53, 58+ ---- he also fiberglassed the panels

Living the Dream's 84 Fleet project -- see post 12. Conduit.

riz's Cheap Easy Fix thread. Another unconventional fix, this one rotating PVC pipe.

Southern Gent's 96 Grandby front-panel replacement thread - in an hour (!)

Dusty Roads-- no-lift-panels-needed post in this thread (post 8)
 
Thanks Old Crow!!! Your search skills must be much better than mine.

jim
 
You're welcome!

I've seen lift panels called by many different names so tried variations I could think of (like 'roof panel' or 'front panel' etc.) Then I tried to think of some term related to lift panels and did searches with words like 'folding', 'hinge*', 'delaminated', 'rivets'. etc., and scrolled down through the resulting thread titles looking for candidates.

That sounds boring but the interesting reads in the results kept me going and gave me ideas for other search terms to try.

I had my laptop in front of me while supposedly watching TV last night and found Wander the West much more interesting.
 
Old Crow said:
I had my laptop in front of me while supposedly watching TV last night and found Wander the West much more interesting.
I delivered my tv and conversion box to the recyclers a year and a half ago. Haven't missed it. I spend way too much time on the internet (but at least I am learning something).

jim
 
OK. I've read through the seven identified lift panel replacement threads (thanks again Old Crow!) and have started my own.

My Grandby was built in 1977 and it does not have any springs in the hinges. I've gotten along fine with helper shock thingies and speaker lift. In one of the threads the cost was stated at $40 (each? pair? three?).

My question is: does the spring loaded hinges add enough value to spend money on them?

bare hinge low.jpg
 
JaSAn,

Just wanted to follow up on Old Crows reference to the lift panels I built. He pointed out the first set I did, including fiberglassing, which didn't work out, the wood was too thick at 1/4". As close to 1/8", or only slightly more (3/16") in thickness is all you can work with. The second set of panels worked out pretty well. Getting the middle hinge placed right is critical for the roof to lay down properly, once assembled. If you can use old panels and get the precise measurements, and hinge placement, you'd do yourself a huge favor. I didn't do that when I had the chance with my crumbling panels, what little was left of them. I thought I had it all figured out, and attempted to make them taller. They're also very difficult to measure when installed in a camper, like if you tried to measure someone else's camper lift panels, because the liner is in the way. In the end, they were the same height as the originals, at about 24 inches. Anyhow, here's where I'd point you to on my thread for how I assembled my panels. Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you want more detailed info.

Poky

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/12116-new-build-1981-grandby-to-become-a-hawk/page-11

Start with about post #102.

I just read your last post. The hinges are about $40 each if ordered from Marty of Jeff at ATC, plus a little for shipping. I purchased three new, and cleaned up and re-used three old. The springs have very little to do with lifting the the roof, I believe their main purpose is to cause pressure so when the panels are extended, they snap into the locked, load-bearing position, and help to keep them locked in that position, with the cloth snap on the back panel, and the push board or aluminum triangle wire on ones such as yours in the front, for secondary security to keep the roof in the upright position.

The main reason I replaced those three hinges were because of rusted broken springs, and aluminum deterioration from long term water exposure from soaked wood panels. I sprayed my old ones with WD-40, got them freed up and folding properly again, and then lubricated them with silicone, before installing.


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PokyBro said:
JaSAn,

Just wanted to follow up on Old Crows reference to the lift panels I built. He pointed out the first set I did, including fiberglassing, which didn't work out, the wood was too thick at 1/4". As close to 1/8", or only slightly more (3/16") in thickness is all you can work with . . .

. . . The springs have very little to do with lifting the the roof, I believe their main purpose is to cause pressure so when the panels are extended, they snap into the locked, load-bearing position, and help to keep them locked in that position, with the cloth snap on the back panel, and the push board or aluminum triangle wire on ones such as yours in the front, for secondary security to keep the roof in the upright position.
PokyBro,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is much appreciated.

My rear panels are original and in good enough shape to use as a pattern. The front panels were replaced by a previous owner (using melamine !) and can also be used as a pattern.

My panels (by design, I think) go slightly over center when in the up position (the roof has to go up a little bit when the panels first start to fold). This has worked well for 39+ years, so I am going to forgo the added complication of dealing with the tensioned hinges during assembly.

I must have read your explanation three times before it sunk into my thick skull that the problem is the center hinge. If I mount the panels behind the top and bottom hinge, the center hinge determines how thick a panel can be used. The original hinges have only .170 inches separating them when closed. After a discouraging afternoon spent at Menards, Home Depot, and Lowes, looking at their supply of thin plywood (all of it paneling: crappy plywood with a pretty veneer), it finally dawned on me that maybe I should replace the hinge (Duh!). McMaster-Carr has a 6 foot long 'Extra-Clearance Offset Piano Hinge without Holes' that gives me a whopping .375 inches separation when closed. $17.64 for unfinished steel or $37.07 for 304 Stainless. The extra .2 inches shouldn't hurt (and possibly help by driving the panels a little more over center when open). Going to ruminate about this overnight.

I'm going to fire up my build thread again 'cuz I am doing a number of things differently. Or to paraphrase Dilbert: "If it works keep improving it until it doesn't work any more". It's a compulsion engineers have.

jim
 
JaSAn said:
PokyBro,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It is much appreciated.

My rear panels are original and in good enough shape to use as a pattern. The front panels were replaced by a previous owner (using melamine !) and can also be used as a pattern.

My panels (by design, I think) go slightly over center when in the up position (the roof has to go up a little bit when the panels first start to fold). This has worked well for 39+ years, so I am going to forgo the added complication of dealing with the tensioned hinges during assembly.

I must have read your explanation three times before it sunk into my thick skull that the problem is the center hinge. If I mount the panels behind the top and bottom hinge, the center hinge determines how thick a panel can be used. The original hinges have only .170 inches separating them when closed. After a discouraging afternoon spent at Menards, Home Depot, and Lowes, looking at their supply of thin plywood (all of it paneling: crappy plywood with a pretty veneer), it finally dawned on me that maybe I should replace the hinge (Duh!). McMaster-Carr has a 6 foot long 'Extra-Clearance Offset Piano Hinge without Holes' that gives me a whopping .375 inches separation when closed. $17.64 for unfinished steel or $37.07 for 304 Stainless. The extra .2 inches shouldn't hurt (and possibly help by driving the panels a little more over center when open). Going to ruminate about this overnight.

I'm going to fire up my build thread again 'cuz I am doing a number of things differently. Or to paraphrase Dilbert: "If it works keep improving it until it doesn't work any more". It's a compulsion engineers have.

jim

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Hi Jim, now you got me thinking!

Your correct about the size, or thickness of the barrel on the hinge, determines how thick of wood paneling can be used. I never considered using a thicker barreled hinge on my first panels, because I was stuck on the idea of staying with the hinges I had. Too bad, because I spent a lot of time on that first set, and $$$ because of fiberglassing both sides. I still think fiberglassing is worth consideration, because those panels were extremely rigid for the vertical load, were much more moisture resistant, and would not have needed, or benefited from aluminum backing struts like those still used by ATC campers, and which I added to mine for stiffness. So I ended up throwing them away, sadly.

I used birch bead-board paneling from Menard's, as it was the thickest paneling I could find that would still work with my hinges. I used the back, unfinished side of the panels, sanding them down, and applying a lacquer finish, because I didn't want to have horizontal lines on the lift panels, contrasted by the vertical lines on the wall paneling.

So, like I said, now I'm spinning the old thinker.

Here's a couple thoughts for you to consider.

If you went with up to 1/4" thick paneling, using those thicker hinges you found, that sounds doable. I would just make sure they would fold completely in half, flush, representing that center hinge's role, with some scrap pieces before cutting and finishing the panels. The hinge at the top of the panel, that attaches to your roof, also needs to pretty much fold completely, just like the center hinge because it folds up flat to the roof, folding completely over itself. So you might need the larger barreled hinge there too. The bottom hinge only has to fold 45 degrees, so I think they'd still be okay with thicker panels.

Another thing I would do differently, would be to ignore the pre drilled holes on the hinges a little bit, and move them over a 1/4", so that when you fold the panels, the rivets are not touching each other, because that is another place you'll cause binding, which in turns cause the wood to have to flex in order to fold completely. It also, in turn, places extra stress on each of the hinges. You also might need to flatten the rivets a little to get full folding.

Lastly, if you weren't already thinking about it, it's best to use "large flange" 1/8" rivets for the center hinge, and the the top and bottom hinges where the hinges attach to the wood panels. It was recommended to me to use 3/16" rivets to attach the top of the panels hinge to the roof, and of course hex sheet metal screws to attach to the camper wall. (You can find "large flange" rivets on e-bay if you look around a bit.)

If you are careful when you're removing the hinges from the roof, the holes will be preserved with no oversizing caused by drill bit drift. Get yourself a small diameter punch, the same size as the pin in the rivet, and hammer the pin part of the rivet through the head of the rivet, then drill the flange part until it pops off on the drill bit. When all are done this way, the hinge will pop off, and then you can push the remaining part of the rivet into the hole with a bit larger punch. It beats everything I tried, including grinding the flanges down flush with the hinge. Hope that makes sense.

When I referenced placement of the center hinge, I was meaning that it doesn't fold perfect center. When you remove your old panels, fold them in half and take note of the over hang you'll see on one of them, I think the bottom. This is the critical part that ensures they fold up properly when dropping the roof. I would put them exactly like your existing panels, right on the money. And keep each panel specific when putting them back, front re-make with old front panel, so your alignment stays true when the panels are attached. Take extra time to mark everything that makes sense to put it all back in the same place you found it. When replacing hinges, this will be very important, because you may not have the same holes to work with.

I hope I haven't come off sounding like a know it all, this was just a place I had a lot of struggles, and I'm just trying to be helpful.

Here's a few pics for reference.

ImageUploadedByWander The West1487049538.006650.jpgImageUploadedByWander The West1487049657.992094.jpg
ImageUploadedByWander The West1487049772.364135.jpgImageUploadedByWander The West1487049842.246509.jpgImageUploadedByWander The West1487049914.863055.jpg

On the last pic, there are two plywood boards cut identically in length, used to give you proper positioning of the hinge to the top of the camper wall. Make these before removing anything, if you're doing this with the side liner off, which you might not be doing. They could also be position in the corners, adjacent to the lift panels, if the side liner is staying on. Some people have just made a 2x4 support in that case. The idea is to keep your hinges at the right height on camper wall, and hold the weight while you attach them. Recommended by Marty at ATC.

Ok, that's probably enough out of me!

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/12116-new-build-1981-grandby-to-become-a-hawk/page-11

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Hello, I've just acquired a 1979 Grandby and there's no lift panels whatsoever, nada! I was leaning on going with the electrical conduit system others have used, but this thread has me thinking of going to the original style. Such a wealth of info and pictures!
The cost of the factory hinges was out of my range, but the McMaster & Carr ones makes the original style more doable. I'd appreciate it if anyone could give me the measurements of the panels. I'm a little confused also. How many pieces are there to a lift panel, 2 or 3? The picture with the angle cut panel looks like 3 pieces. Just realized poky used 6 hinges, so I guess 2 pieces each.
My son works in the commerial glass business and they use a product he refers to as " ACP aluminum composite panel". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_panel
The stuff he uses looks to be a plexiglass core with an aluminum skin on each side. Very rigid and 3/16 thick. It is heavy though. I'm guessing it would be ideal for the lift panels. If you think trying to build the panels with no sample to follow would be extremely difficult, please say so and I'll stick with the conduit style. I like that you don't have to mess with mattresses with the original panels.

Okay another edit to my post. I'm getting a better idea on how they work, I was thinking the hinges were all on the edge of the panels. I now see the bottom tapered panel is more full sized and the hinge is more to the middle of the panel, rather than the edge. If I could get the size the the panels, that would be great! Main Line Overland is a 4 Wheel dealer, and about 15 miles from me. I've got to get over there and get a good look on what I need to do. Thanks for any help you can provide!
 
Shellback,

My Grandby is a '77 so the panels should be the same in '79 (i'd call the factory and ask). It would make the most sense for me to draw up the rear panels for you as I have them out and they are in good enough shape to take measurements off of. I won't be able to get to it 'til the end of the week. The front panels will come off after the new rear ones are reinstalled. I'm not sure how close they are to the originals as they were replaced by a PO (they have worked for me for two years except for the material bowing).

I am currently trying to decide if the stainless hinges are worth the money (they are 50% more expensive).

I also was intrigued by the conduit lift 'panels' until I did a quick and dirty load analysis on them. They are quite a bit weaker in side loading (shear) and torsion. They could be stiffened up with some diagonal bracing but the plywood panels have worked for my camper for almost 40 years. If you can follow engineering drawings mine should be good enough to make parts that work .

I researched other materials for the panels, at first trying to find what FWC is currently using and then trying to go one better (hey, I'm an engineer). They all were: heavier, unavailable to the general public, unavailable in small quantities, expensive, expensive to ship; usually some combination.

Seeing how the panels attach to the camper and actually lifting and lowering the roof a couple of times would be worth while.

jim
 
JaSAn, Thanks for the reply. I'm probably more than a month or more from building a lift system, so there's no hurry on my part for measurements. I've got a complete rebuild just getting started. I have to get the frame to a welder to narrow it up for the floor pack, then build a new floor pack. I'm guessing with the lift cylinders on the outside of the camper, there wouldn't be a need for the spring loaded hinges. I'm going to try and pick up some offset hinges locally and build a small mock up panel to give me and idea how to get it done. I do agree on the side load with electrical conduit. A stiff wind mind fold them over. We just have 50 MPH winds here in S.E. PA yesterday.
 
I have thought about doing this mod if I need to replace the panels:
 
I really admire people that can do that kind of work. I'll be talking to Marty if I ever have to replace my lift panels.
 
Has anyone thought of using HDPE sheets? I have no looked but I'm guessing it available in most areas locally or shipping will kill a guy. Sounds light weight, flexible, strong and can get it in almost any thickness you want.

I don't have measurements in front of me but figured (6) pieces are 24"x48" of 1/8" and shipping weight was 72 pounds. Shipping was $58 for a total of $238 all said and done. This was at tapplastics.com, I didn't check around. While not cheap its not bad either. Assuming us DIYers get it right the first time

https://www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/cut_to_size_plastic/hdpe_sheets/529
 
I just looked into king starboard and may go that route. I am gonna try the 1/4" birch as I already purchased it. Anyone know the offset on the roof where you rivet the spring board too? Looks like about 2" by the photos a few posts up the page. I see the triangle board needs to be a 1/4" longer. Ijust want to make sure the top will close correctly. Thanks
 
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