Lithium Ion Batteries

[captainphx]

Hello everyone! Been a while since I have been on the site. I have a 2012 Raven, which we have been enjoying very much. We have gotten quite a bit of use out of it. My biggest concern with the camper though, is the batteries. We have a Dometic 110 frig, 2 AGM batteries, IOTA distribution panel, IOTA IQ4, and an 85 watt solar panel. This is the 3rd set of batteries. The 85 watt panel just can't keep up with the Dometic 110. And, when we arrive at camp after a long day of driving, the batteries are already down to 2/3rds. The truck is only trickle charging all day when we are driving and again it just can't keep up with the Dometic. Right now the most recent set of batteries are dead...again.

I am planning on completely redoing my electrical system. I have read some of the posts that tell what others are doing concerning solar panels, lithium ion batteries, controllers, battery separators, trimetric, and upgraded truck to camper wiring. I would like to do all of that but first, I have a couple of questions.

Mainly, I just want to hurry up and get the camper going again. I am thinking of replacing the batteries with a couple of lithium ions from Starkpower. Yes, I know they are expensive. And I would like to change my 85 watt solar panel for a 160 watt ( or greater, if there is such a thing)

Can I do just those two things for now, just to get going again, or do I need to do other things as well. I assume I would need to do away with the IQ4, correct?

Thanks for the help!

 

[97grandby]

There are lots of options and routes to take. Sounds like your not getting much of a charge from driving your truck so a lot of us have changed to the blue sea systems acr. ( also happens to be what 4wc adding to new campers now) a lot have also replaced the 10 gauge wire to 8 or even 4 gauge wire from truck to camper. That should be more then enough to keep up with your dometic. DrJ and Vic have some great write ups on all of your questions except your lithium questions. I have 240 watts and will likely add more. I have the semi flexible 12v and have been happy with them, just over kill on days that it's cloudy or in winter. DrJ has a single 24v panel that is 250 watts he has really liked, so all depends on how you want to mount to your roof. Solarblvd.com has some really good prices I will be buying me next few panels from. You can check my signature and click on all the upgrades I've done to mine. As mine is 20 years old it didn't have anything really so I had to add everything to my system from scratch.


1990 Ford F-250
1997 fwc grandby

 

[Zirdu]

It sounds to me like you are probably discharging your batteries too deeply, and thereby shortening their life.

I am about to get a new Grandby, and my plan is to use the dual AGM batteries it comes with until they die. Then look into Lithium. Hopefully by then the cost might be lower.

I was unaware of Starkpower batteries. Compared to others I have seen they seem reasonably priced! Two other sources for Lithium batteries for RV you might compare would be AM Solar, which sells Lithium battery systems for RVs made by Victron, which I believe is a Netherlands company. AM Solar seems to be a great company, and very helpful with advice if you want to do it yourself. Another source I have seen is Starlight Solar (starlightsolar.com) out of Yuma, Arizona.

I agree you probably don't have enough solar watts to keep up with your needs and your system. At first people were saying you needed solar panel watts equal to the AmpHours of your battery bank. Now it looks like the thinking is moving to having 1.5 to 2 times the solar panel watts as the Amp Hours in your battery bank. This is for lead acid (AGM and the like) batteries, Not sure how that would translate to Lithium batteries - I think that since Lithium are easier and faster to charge up, and can be discharged to 80% as opposed to 50% for lead acid, that you could get by with a fewer solar watts. My thinking is the more solar wattage the better, so long as you can do so with little weight penalty.

As far as increasing your solar panel, you can always put on two solar panels. I am planning to put on two flexible 120 watt panels (for total of 240 watts) from SolarBlvd.com. If they work I will probably add two more for a total of 480 watts. If they don't work, it's back to the drawing board.

 

[strayDog]

I am assuming your dometic 110 is a compressor style. I have one and like you the 95 watt couldn't keep up. all I did was have FWC install a 30 amp Zamp controller. I already had a plug on back of camper for a portable so I added a Zamp 160 portable. So far with good sunlight have been very happy. However, I was very surprised at the differences in amp production from the panels with the angle of the sun and even a little shade on the panel reduces the output significantly. Zamp 160 makes about 9 amps/hr the 95 0n the roof makes about 5 for a total of 14 amps/hr. Best I could ever make was 12 amps/hr, really pretty good. I have no idea how all this will perform in the winter but will find out this winter, but the refrigerator shouldn't run as much in the winter. I have a 2000 watt yamaha generator as back up. The interesting part is the batteries. Until I got the Zamp controller I was going by the LED light on the ss 6 sunsaver. With the Zamp controller I found out I was letting my batteries get way to low, fortunately it didn't happen enough to damage them or so it seems for now. Use the Battery state of charge chart to keep the batteries above 40 or 50%:
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/download/battery-state-of-charge-chart.pdf
Another thing I'm shooting for next time I get batteries is more amp hour capacity. Two 6 volt has higher amp hour capacity than the regular 12 volts. I believe some special 12 volts have higher capacity but haven't checked that out yet.
Also be sure to disconnect the controller on the portable if you get one ,otherwise it will work against the main one installed in the camper.Got my Zamp from https://back-countrysolar.com/ Joe is very service oriented and extremely knowledgeable.
Check and cross check all the information you get, I got a lot of different answers from different people. Good Luck!!
Because of the angle of the sun those flat little panels don't really put out much, the portable you can move around and find the sweet spot for the best production.

 

[DavidO]

Captainphx my hawk is a 2012 with a 110 fridge and I got it from the factory with the same 85 watt solar panel. When I drove the White Rim trail (Road) I was in the full sun all day and the truck was running for over 5 hours each day but still I didn't have enough charging. My conclusion was that from the factory both my truck wasn't getting enough charge to the batteries and my solar panel also wasn't getting enough charge to the batteries from the truck. The only way to really charge the batteries was to plug it into a 110 Volt source. Every 3 or 4 days my Hawk had to be plugged in.

I replaced my solar panel with a 160 watt panel this required me to also to replace the controller. I choose a 160 watt panel as it only added 9 pounds to my roof. I would have liked to bigger but the weight goes way up from there. The wires from the factory work fine with this size setup.

I replaced the wires from the factory from my truck battery all the way to the camper battery with 6 gauge wire with 60 amp fuses on each end. This totally fixed my charging from the truck to the camper. I kept the Sure power unit it works fine. Sure power calls for 6 gauge wire in the Specs. I now get more amps when I run the truck than I get if I plug it into 110 volts.

These 2 changes fixed my charging problem completely. I now can travel about for as long as I like and never look for that 110 plug to charge up. I still plug in at home before starting on a trip. I've been on several 3 week trips and I don't think I have ever been below 70% charged and almost every day I reach 100% charged. Fully charged batteries are happy batteries that last a long time.

If you change over to Lithium Ion Batteries you will still need to fix your charging problems.

 

[billharr]

Read this thread by Photohc for Lithium Ion Battery information. I have 250 watts on the top and 6 gage wire feeding from the truck. keeps my Waeco 65 fridge running no problem. Note 100w did not keep up. I am hoping the price of lithium batteries come down before I need them.

 

[rando]

While I am a big proponent of Lithium batteries, they are NOT going to solve your problem. Your issue is that on a daily basis your power out exceeds your power in. A more efficient battery will just delay the inevitable a day or two. The only way to fix this is to decrease your loads or increase your charging. Your loads seem fairly typical, so the majority of the issue is on the charging side. The best solution is to add more solar. We have 160W of solar, and here is sunny Colorado we are just about balanced - the solar recharges the battery > 90% by the end of the day. Your fridge is less efficient than ours, so you will likely need more solar - I think 2 of these 120W thin and light panels would be just the ticket:
https://www.solarblvd.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_269&products_id=3082

You may need to update your solar charge controller as well, in which case I would recommend going with Victron Energy components. Both for an MPPT charge controller:
http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-Energy-MPPT-7515-Solar-Charge-Controller_p_2779.html

And for a battery monitor:
http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-Energy-BMV700-Precision-Battery-Monitor_p_2810.html

And get the bluetooth dongle so you program and monitor everything on your phone/laptop:
http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-VEDirect-Bluetooth-Smart-dongle_p_3796.html

 

[longhorn1]

There is someone who has posted on his use of lithium batteries and has posted updates. I believe it is cdbrow1.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Wander The West mobile app

 

[JaSAn]

I agree with the above that you don't have enough charging. I have 2 X 100W solar panels and 2 GC2 batteries for 208 AH (I haven't added alternator charging as I haven't needed it). My main draw is an old Norcold refrigerator drawing 25 to 35 AH a day. I seldom see my batteries below 85% in the AM and only once this year was I below 100% at the end of the day (very dark, rainy day). I do two 6 week trips a year and a number of 3 - 5 day trips.

Get a good battery monitor with a shunt so you can monitor amps in and out of your batteries (I have the Trimetric 2030). I have learned a lot about my system in two+ years by watching my loads and charging.

IMO Lithium batteries can be an expensive learning experience if you don't have your charging/loads figured out.

jim

 

[Backroad Joe]

Save the batteries for last. Your Ford should have plenty of alternator capacity. I have 10 Ga from the truck battery and a 50 amp breaker. 10 Ga will handle 50 amps in a 10 ft run. Honestly, I don't understand why some people think you need massive wire gauge. If you are trying to pump 100 amps into your camper your doing something wrong.

Next up your solar capacity. 200 watts seems to be a good minimum.

 

[Vic Harder]

, I don't understand why some people think you need massive wire gauge. If you are trying to pump 100 amps into your camper your doing something wrong.

It isn't just the current. You want to have the voltage that the camper battery sees coming from the alternator to be at least .5V higher than the battery is at. So, if your camper batt is at 12.8v, you want 12.8+.5 = 13.3 at the camper battery, after the voltage drop.

 

[Backroad Joe]

That is correct Vic. Which is why one should always work out the calculations first.

With 14.2 V from a running alternator, DC voltage drop in 10 ft of 10 AWG is 0.5 V, so 13.8 at the battery.

 

[DavidO]

Backroad Joe it is not a "10 foot run" try 50 feet. You must count both directions. I used ALL of the 25 feet of red and 25 feet of black cable that I bought for this project and I only have a double cab truck not a club cab.

 

[captainphx]

Thanks for the great replies. Ive been in the garage all day pulling my dead batteries and I also have a water leak at the tank, so I pulled the tank too. Campers torn apart at the moment. This is an excellent time to do all of the electrical upgrades. I'll post as I go.

 

[cwdtmmrs]

DavidO. You do not have to count both directions.

cwd

 

[rando]

DavidO. You do not have to count both directions.

cwd

Actually, you do have to count both directions, unless you are using a frame ground (which can have it's own issues, but in which case you need only consider the length of wire from the frame to the house battery). All the current you are pulling on the positive lead has to flow back to the battery on the negative lead, so you get an equal voltage drop on both.

 

[Lineman]

Do you have the 6.2 engine in your raptor? If so you should be able to get a high output alternator. My f250 with with the 6.2 has no trouble keeping the batteries full. It came with the snow plow prep package which includes a larger alternator. I have the fwc standard size wire from the camper to engine and it takes a couple hours of driving to charge the battery bank from half to full.

 

[Vic Harder]

it also depends on how much current you are trying to push over that wire. In another post here I figured out that my 130A alternator could be reasonably expected to push out over 50 Amps to the camper battery. The voltage drop for 10' at 50A over 10g is 7% = 1V, so only 13.2 at the battery. 13.2 - .5 = 12.8 So, that's good enough if you really are only 10' away.

 

[captainphx]

Do you have the 6.2 engine in your raptor? If so you should be able to get a high output alternator. My f250 with with the 6.2 has no trouble keeping the batteries full. It came with the snow plow prep package which includes a larger alternator. I have the fwc standard size wire from the camper to engine and it takes a couple hours of driving to charge the battery bank from half to full.

Yes, it the 6.2. If, after running a heavier gauge wire back to the camper, I am still not getting enough charge, then that is something I may consider.

 

[cdbrow1]

I went down the Lithium Route - with Starpopwer. I am happy, but it takes a lot of tuning and money. I would recomend upgrading the wiring from the truck first and see if it fixes your issues. That alone made a huge difference. Modern trucks don't put out a steady 14.4 Volts like in the old days, they can turn off completely to save power once the truck battery is charged. My GMC runs between 13.2 and 14.4 volts depending on the day.

I went with adding a second alternator with separate regulator for the camper. This way I could provide a consistent 14.4 volts (now reduced to 14.1) to the batteries. They charge at upto 60 amps when needed - over 4 gauge wires. Google your truck model to see if there is a second alternator kit available for it.