Navigation and Avenza Maps

[mdfcleveland]

I've been back road & trail traveling on my KTM's for 12 years and I have always used a combination of Garimn GPS, paper Maps and my iPhone. I have always felt Garmin could do a better job with their equipment, I started with a 60 series and now have a Montana for the last 4 or 5 years. Is anyone using a tablet with a GPS chip and Avenza maps or another application? I know it's limited in map availability but I want to know if you have had good experiences with it and what your feelings are. The gps units I have used are no good for turn by turn directions, I'm not interested in that, it's the trails, tracks and forest roads.

 

[LuckyDan]

I use the basic Avenza App on my phone. We started using the Pro version at work a little bit before I retired. If you’re planning to just use it for overall navigation and letting the dot on the map confirm your suspicions on where you think you are, the basic works more than fine.

I’ll assume you are a Duel Sport rider. The following link has a link to the Avenza App and a little tutorial kinda thing from the local Agency trail mgt. people on it somewhere. I found the App works easier on an IPhone, but I mastered the Pro version on my work droid phone. That means it’s a non issue for anyone else.

Good luck.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5340950.pdf

 

[smlobx]

I’ve heard a lot of people talk about Gia GPS but I don’t have any extensive experience with it..
https://www.gaiagps.com/

 

[mdfcleveland]

I’ve heard a lot of people talk about Gia GPS but I don’t have any extensive experience with it..
https://www.gaiagps.com/

Gia GPS looks great thanks for the link.

 

[rando]

I use Gaia extensively, both for vehicle exploring (ipad Pro) and hiking (iphone). It is a great piece of software with excellent maps. I pay for Premium membership, specifically to get access to the National Geographic Trails Illustrated maps. I have pretty much given up on using my Garmin handhelds.

 

[Old Crow]

I switch around between my Montana 650t GPS (with optional City Navigator maps) on the windshield and various apps on my iPad Mini4 (mounted on a ProClip mount beside the steering wheel). When I travel with my brother, he usually drives most of the time, so I put the Mini4 on a tall cup mount beside the passenger (navigator's!) seat so I can use it from there.

I use Apple Maps, Waze, and occasionally Google Maps on the highway when I'm looking for traffic, accident, construction or police-activity info and for most of the turn-by-turn routing.

For secondary roads I tend to use Apple maps if I have signal, Maps.me otherwise (or when Apple Maps doesn't have enough detail). I also have the Montana running for a second opinion or for following a downloaded track (i.e. backcountry discovery route or something similar).

On forest roads and in more remote areas, it's generally Maps.me but I also sometimes fire up Garmin Earthmate for another view. (An Earthmate subscription comes with my Inreach subscription). This is particularly useful if I've forgotten to download the Maps.me maps for the area I'm in as I generally have the entire state (and typically the entire region) on Earthmate.

I also sometimes have the Allstays map up and showing a track-up view.

I have a premium Gaia GPS subscription but haven't used it much yet. I did like its Backroads Canada layer on a trip up there last Fall.

I've not used Avenza but see some public-lands agencies favor it for Motor Vehicle Use Maps on their web sites. (There's also an MVUM layer on Gaia GPS.)

An argument for keeping the GPS even if not using it is in case today's the day the ipad or phone (or GPS) decides to crap out. I once had a nuvi GPS brick itself on the first day of a multi-day trip. Fortunately I had my old 60CSx in the electronics bag and that did the job. I also saw my brother's week-old Montana 680t go wacky on a trip last Fall but we had both my 650t and my iPad with mapping apps so the failure was just an annoyance.

Also- I just noticed Garmin now has updated the Montana series to 700 and 700i models. The latter has Inreach capability with a qwerty keyboard. They claim the topo maps (called 'topoactive') are routable but I'd want to see more info on that.
.

 

[mdfcleveland]

Old Crow, Thanks for all the info. When you loose the wireless signal does the iPad GPS chip do it's job well enough on locating you and updating your movements? I will have to look into the maps.me and see what kind of details it has. The more I play with Gaia the more I enjoy it, although I think half of that is the nice touch screen interface that iPads and iPhones have.

I will not give up carrying my Montana I do like having mapping options, following tracks, and my recorded tracks/waypoints. In all my traveling the only electronics failures that I have had were garmin devices. They do live a hard life on the dash of my KTM enduros, that being said I wonder how long an iPad would last the vibrations. I would find it hard to upgrade my Montana to the 700 as gamins technology always seems to be outdated even when new.

I switch around between my Montana 650t GPS (with optional City Navigator maps) on the windshield and various apps on my iPad Mini4 (mounted on a ProClip mount beside the steering wheel). When I travel with my brother, he usually drives most of the time, so I put the Mini4 on a tall cup mount beside the passenger (navigator's!) seat so I can use it from there.

I use Apple Maps, Waze, and occasionally Google Maps on the highway when I'm looking for traffic, accident, or police-activity info and for most of the turn-by-turn routing.

For secondary roads I tend to use Apple maps if I have signal, Maps.me otherwise (or when Apple Maps doesn't have enough detail). I also have the Montana running for a second opinion or for following a downloaded track (i.e. backcountry discovery route or something similar).

On forest roads and in more remote areas, it's generally Maps.me but I also sometimes fire up Garmin Earthmate for another view. (An Earthmate subscription comes with my Inreach subscription). This is particularly useful if I've forgotten to download the Maps.me maps for the area I'm in but have the entire state (and typically the entire region) on Earthmate.

I also sometimes have the Allstays map up and showing a track-up view.

I have a premium Gaia GPS subscription but haven't used it much yet. I did like its Backroads Canada layer on a trip up there last Fall.

I've not used Avenza but see some public-lands agencies favor it for Motor Vehicle Use Maps on their web sites. (There's also an MVUM layer on Gaia GPS.)

An argument for keeping the GPS even if not using it is in case today's the day the ipad or phone (or GPS) decides to crap out. I once had a nuvi GPS brick itself on the first day of a multi-day trip. Fortunately I had my old 60CSx in the electronics bag and that did the job. I also saw my brother's week-old Montana 680 go wacky on a trip last Fall but we had both my 650t and my iPad with mapping apps so the failure was just an annoyance.

Also- I just noticed Garmin now has updated the Montana series to 700 and 700i models. The latter has Inreach capability with a qwerty keyboard. They claim the topo maps (called 'topoactive') are routable but I'd want to see more info on that.
.

 

[Old Crow]

I've had no problem with the iPad keeping up using its GPS chip. It's actually kind of amazing given the iPad is inside the truck and I'm often driving through fairly heavy tree cover. Having said that, I agree that using one on an adventure bike may not be practical.

That reminds me of a post from last Fall where Wander The West member Advmoto18 mentioned the Trail Tech Voyager Pro. I see there's also a Trail Tech Voyager. Have you looked into those?
.

 

[RONR]

I have used both Avenza and Gaia and actually like them both. However I now use Gaia with a premium subscription for almost all my maps. I use the iPad for navigation in my truck and my iPhone for hiking. I'm always amazed at how many maps and many outdoor type apps only work when on the grid. With me, I'm off the grid about 90% of the time once I'm off the highway and beginning the real adventure.

There are some special maps that you can get with Avenza but not with Gaia. However the opposite is true as well. These are usually speciality maps. For example I can get a BLM map of the Alabama Hills on Avenza that shows the locations where movies were shot and I cannot get this on Gaia and DVNP had a specialty map that clearly showed legal locations for dispersed camping. So its actually nice to have both applications.

But like I said, Gaia premium is my go to now. If you search the web for a Gaia GPS promo code, you will find some pretty good discounts for the premium subscription. I got a 5 year premium membership for $130. For me that's a no brainer. Yes, I'll have to renew in five years but if I'm still around, I'll be more than happy to reup. The amount of maps that are available make it worthwhile as well as the ease of use. Just the Forest Service and Nat Geo maps are worth it. But you get so many more.

With Gaia, once a map is downloaded to one device, they automatically sync to your other device. This is true for routes, tracks and waypoints. Create a route on my Mac and it syncs to the iPad and iPhone. To create a route, just create waypoints that just snap to the road or trail that is shown on the map as long as you're connected to the internet. But once a route is created on line, you can download the route along with the map of the route. Also once a route is created, the mileage and elevation gain and lose can be seen for the route.

Sharing GPX files is pretty easy as well.

There is a downside to both apps: In the event of an apocalyptic event, such as a zombie attack, real navigation skills suffer as a result of the blue dot. So whenever I have a chance, I try to keep up on my trianglation skills with a paper map and compass. I still do my general planning with paper maps.

BTW, I also have no problem with my gps signal.

 

[mdfcleveland]

Thanks Old Crow for the reminder on the Trail Tech GPS, I had forgotten that had come out a while back and probably deserves another look for the bikes, although if the mapping applications are working so well these days maybe my iPhone on the dash makes sense.

RONR, Thanks for chiming in thats great information and the syncing sounds perfect. I know what you mean about paper maps, I like doing all my planning on them, for me it makes more sense seeing the big picture with details, things you just can not get on a screen. The number of people that comment to me about my GPS set to always point North is amazing, just shows who learned to read a map, and who learned to follow turn by turn directions.

Looks like I'll be shopping for an iPad mini and a Gaia membership but also keep Avenza in my back pocket.
Thanks everyone!

I've had no problem with the iPad keeping up using its GPS chip. It's actually kind of amazing given the iPad is inside the truck and I'm often driving through fairly heavy tree cover. Having said that, I agree that using one on an adventure bike may not be practical.

That reminds me of a post from last Fall where Wander The West member Advmoto18 mentioned the Trail Tech Voyager Pro. I see there's also a Trail Tech Voyager. Have you looked into those?
.

I have used both Avenza and Gaia and actually like them both. However I now use Gaia with a premium subscription for almost all my maps. I use the iPad for navigation in my truck and my iPhone for hiking. I'm always amazed at how many maps and many outdoor type apps only work when on the grid. With me, I'm off the grid about 90% of the time once I'm off the highway and beginning the real adventure.

There are some special maps that you can get with Avenza but not with Gaia. However the opposite is true as well. These are usually speciality maps. For example I can get a BLM map of the Alabama Hills on Avenza that shows the locations where movies were shot and I cannot get this on Gaia and DVNP had a specialty map that clearly showed legal locations for dispersed camping. So its actually nice to have both applications.

But like I said, Gaia premium is my go to now. If you search the web for a Gaia GPS promo code, you will find some pretty good discounts for the premium subscription. I got a 5 year premium membership for $130. For me that's a no brainer. Yes, I'll have to renew in five years but if I'm still around, I'll be more than happy to reup. The amount of maps that are available make it worthwhile as well as the ease of use. Just the Forest Service and Nat Geo maps are worth it. But you get so many more.

With Gaia, once a map is downloaded to one device, they automatically sync to your other device. This is true for routes, tracks and waypoints. Create a route on my Mac and it syncs to the iPad and iPhone. To create a route, just create waypoints that just snap to the road or trail that is shown on the map as long as you're connected to the internet. But once a route is created on line, you can download the route along with the map of the route. Also once a route is created, the mileage and elevation gain and lose can be seen for the route.

Sharing GPX files is pretty easy as well.

There is a downside to both apps: In the event of an apocalyptic event, such as a zombie attack, real navigation skills suffer as a result of the blue dot. So whenever I have a chance, I try to keep up on my trianglation skills with a paper map and compass. I still do my general planning with paper maps.

BTW, I also have no problem with my gps signal.

 

[AWG_Pics]

I guess I am more old school than I thought. For my needs a garmin nuvi to get me into the general area, a gazetteer (Delorme or Benchmark), a compass for backup and maybe a geology guidebook or two are all I ever use, except for eyes and the feel of the road or trail. Generally I try not to be too dependent on GPS unless I am in a city -- where it is very useful. Different experience and expectations I suppose.

So to answer the OP's first question. GPS will get you into the area -- then it is up to you after that.

Don't get me wrong -- I love maps. A big part of my early professional life was making maps of various types. I have all sorts of maps squirreled away all over in the house and the truck. But there is a time to get eyes off the screen and onto the terrain, in my opinion, anyway.

Here is my first GPS unit:

 

[Mthomas]

Gaia is a solid app, but the map sources on it can be dated. Specifically, the USGS says it is 2016, but I have found many errors, old data issues. I think you need to have multiple resources available. Avenza, GaiaGPS, cal topo here in the west, and the Garmin maps. Google maps is still my go to when looking at satellite images for dispersed sites.