One Last Attempt: Has anyone used their FWC water system in below freezing temps?

[Wallowa]

On a week long Colorado elk hunting trip I proved the outside spigot drain is the first to go. After a night long blizzard and temps in the single digits the drain line/valve was frozen solid. Water inside the camper was okay. Not knowing what was frozen and where, I used the water pump and faucet to dump 20 some gallons of water out the sink drain.

The drain line remained frozen for the balance of the trip. Back home and thawed, I put several gallons in the tank and luckily there was apparently no damage or leaks.

Does anyone know where that drain line runs? My 2012 Hawk is more or less permanently mounted but it appears to run through the interior behind the cabinets? If so, a break there would be major mess.....In the future I will be joining the blue water jug group in winter conditions.

I have the same question about where is that main drain to exterior routed...my best WAG is that it is behind and under the storage areas and fuse cabinet on the left wall of the tub...and in our '16 Hawk I believe it goes under my fridge but on the floor of the tub..it is inside the tub for certain and I assume the spigot and through wall fixture at the back wall is the point where it freezes....I don't think you can isolate the drain line and drain the water out of it when using the rest of the system...that would eliminate that vulnerable line...again a schematic drawing of where the plumbing is placed including the valves would be invaluable. Stan: You there?

 

[Smokecreek1]

Yup..that is exactly what happened to me also...I did catch and delete second post..I just kept tapping "post"...duh!

Me three-when earlier today I was trying to submit a reply to another thread. Saw a line appear above my reply saying "want to see a new reply to this", so I waited hit post and nothing happened-hit post again it worked but hah two posts so deleted it.

Smoke

 

[Smokecreek1]

As was posted earlier, you know there probably just is not any way to make sure that your water does not freeze unless you drain your system and carry some water jugs. In the last 12 years, I've had my Grandby out in single digits a few times, and out in the teens and below freezing temps with lot's of snow, many more times and sometimes some things freeze (the faucet) and some times nothing does. These things are made tough-they thaw out, so I always park in the sun if I can. I usually first know if it froze that night when I notice my outside dirty water container and outside water can are frozen (when I get my coffee water). I have a hot water heater and just make sure that it is on and working, leave the storage doors open a tad, close most but not all outside openings (I always sleep with an opening near my head and a cracked main window)and now I have an arctic liner (fantastic warmer upper). I sleep warm, but being able to turn on the heater from the rack w/o getting up was also a main selling point for me as an old back packer.

Maybe I've been lucky (and don't live way up north where it gets real cold), but my major problem up here (the Norther GB and Cascades/Sierras) in winter is finding a place to water up my system and/or not draining it when I got back home. Once in the rack I'm warm all night. Maybe the combined body heat of me and the dog (sep beds ) add to the cabin warmth and now I have Wave heater that they say I can leave on all night( I never ran my forced air heater all night (cept once in single digit temps)., just crank it up before i hit the rack, then turn it off. If I'm going for a long walk or what ever, turn on the Wave or maybe the thermo on low for the blower-just use common sense. Again I do not live and play in places that rarely get below zero and if I lived there or planned to play there, maybe I would think differently. You should ask Mark BC how he does it-he loves the cold!! Everyone, every vehicle and every situation is different and each should plan to that end. Don't know if that that helps!

Smoke

 

[rustytinbender]

Wow....I don't post much but it bothers me that you are so disrespectful to Stan... he seems to try hard to help those who can help themselves.

It gets very cold here in Wisconsin so just I drain my system...not worth risking the damage from freezing.

You don't need a schematic just investigate and figure it out. Looking at the setup it appeared to me he drain line had to be under the trim by the floor...take a couple of screws out and remove the trim piece and there is the drain line. So without insulating under the floor the drain line is going to freeze.

 

[Wallowa]

Wow....I don't post much but it bothers me that you are so disrespectful to Stan... he seems to try hard to help those who can help themselves.

It gets very cold here in Wisconsin so just I drain my system...not worth risking the damage from freezing.

You don't need a schematic just investigate and figure it out. Looking at the setup it appeared to me he drain line had to be under the trim by the floor...take a couple of screws out and remove the trim piece and there is the drain line. So without insulating under the floor the drain line is going to freeze.

Let me clarify...Stan and I are friends and we communicate often off this forum, but I know he reads this forum so "paging Stan" is just an alert to draw his attention..certain not disrespectfully in any fashion.

I do disagree with you on a point, I believe we all would benefit from diagrams showing the locations for the plumbing, or wiring for that matter, built into our FWCs but out of sight behind cabinets or face boards. Same, same on knowing where the frame members are behind the coverings. Many of us alter or add features to our FWC units and it is not always possible to disassemble panels to find the plumbing, wiring or structural members that we hope to modify or add to.

Just my take and I could be wrong...

Phil

 

[esimmers]

Water system when well below freezing? I would say this depends on whether you can keep your camper interior warm and whether you can keep your hot water heater fired up.

The problem isn't so much when you're actually camping. You can fire up the heater and hot water heater without much hassle and the water system will all stay warm.

The problem is when you're on the move. Will the hot water heater stay on (or will the hot water in the tank always be above freezing)? Will the interior of the camper stay above freezing while you're on the move?

If the camper interior and hot water are warm, then no problem. But I think you really want to know what happens when you're on the road and the hot water heater is off and the camper is cold.

FWC has installed valves in you camper that let you drain and close off the hot water lines (and hot water tank) while keeping the cold water system working. This is for the minimalist winter campers who can keep the inside of their camper above freezing but don't want to have to worry about the hot water heater. This way, all you have to keep above freezing are the water tank, the pump and the cold water lines to your sink.

If it's well below freezing, even that is a challenge and I recommend draining everything and just using bottled water. The water in the tank can freeze without trouble (assuming you leave a little space at the top for ice expansion), but the lines to the pump, the pump, the lines from the pump to your faucet, and the drain, are not items I would want to have water in to freeze and expand.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[ckent323]

Phil,

In our 2007 Keystone the water tank drain line is a small clear plastic tube that runs from the water tank along the base of the sink and drawer cabinets at the floor then through the bottom of the larger storage and refrigerator cabinet to the petcock at the rear of the camper on the driver's side It is covered by a piece of base molding.

The much larger diameter sink drain line runs directly to the side drain outlet on the driver's side of the camper. These are the two most likely lines to freeze - probably before anything else.

The lines in the sink cabinet from the water pump and perhaps the hot water heater are also close to the sidewall of the camper behind the drawers in the cabinet and at risk of freezing.

It seems to me that there is enough room that with some effort, insulation could be put around much of the water supply lines or perhaps against the side wall of the camper behind the sink and drawer cabinet.

I removed the face of my sink and drawer cabinet while doing the solar wiring and took some pictures of the wiring and water lines. They are probably run differently in some campers due to different sink location and other model differences.

If desired I can post some of those pictures for others to look at to get an idea of how the wires and water lines are run. However, these were not intended to specifically document the water lines so it may be difficult to sort out which lines are from the water tank, which are from the water heater and etc.

Edit: I looked at the pictures I took and they are all close ups mainly for wiring so not very useful but I put some pictures in my gallery showing the water pump, water heater and lines to the water tank.

The water system in my Keystone (except that mine has a Shurflo pump and no system drain line - only a cold water tank drain line) is very similar to the Hawk water system shown in the following thread:

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/3343-inside-cabinet-take-apart/


Regards,

Craig

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

The 20 gallon fresh water tank drain runs along the floor (in most floor plans).

See sample pic.

You can get to it (at least some of the drain line) by unscrewing the small wooden cover along the floor. But because the drain line is pretty flexible, we haven't seen too many freezing damage issues with it.


No disrespect taken.

Things are shifting here at work, so I'm not able to spend as much time on the forums as I used to. But that said, I'm trying to break free of some other responsibilities this year so I can spend a few more minutes each day on the forums.



.

 

[Wallowa]

More solid information...appreciated.

Esimmers: The problem of keeping the water system from freezing while driving is the elephant in the room. A real problem. I always turn off my propane before driving so the furnace use is not possible. Unfortunately my exhaust system on the Tundra runs down under the right side of the truck bed while my water system is on the left side over the fuel tank. Little or no exhaust system heating of Hawk. So as you indicated options are removing all water before driving any distance in below freezing temps or hoping a hot water tank and hot water dump into the main storage tanks will suffice until the furnace can be used again. Crap shoot to be sure. I have remote temp units and monitor temps near the water pump....sketchy but could do this while driving and stop to fire up the furnace if needed. Not ideal.

Craig; Yes, photos would be great! And, I will take your suggestion and try to place insulating sheets inside the cabinets between plumbing and external walls, great idea. Plus try to get insulation on outside of tub walls. Not sure about sink drain since it should be free of water; collection bucket and drain hose a different matter. Shower valve will need to be blown free of water if I can isolate it; previous suggestion was made to install valves in the feed lines going to the shower fixture. Will try that.

Stan: Thanks as always for the feedback. Photo really helps and knowing that the flexible drain line has not been an issue is good news. Do stay in touch as you can. Still love every minute in our Hawk! Hope the Tigard store can re-open, I got great service there.

Good discussion and sharing of experiences thanks,

Phil

 

[PaulT]

Phil,
You might try a propane steak saver with a one pound propane bottle to fuel either your furnace or a Wave 3 heater to keep the camper above freezing while traveling. Just a thought.

Steak saver device: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306161_200306161

Paul

 

[DieselShack]

Is it a huge no no to travel with the furnace on? Or even the water heater?

 

[PaulT]

On the other hand, I have found that after running a space heater set for about 45 F in the camper over night at the house in the 20's outside, the camper was in upper 30's after an hour of travel. Not scientific as I just was surprised it kept that warm on arrival.
With the top down, the camper is fairly well insulated. You could put a wireless outdoor thermometer in the aisle or in a cabinet containing water pipes with the receiver in the truck cab and stop to run the furnace if temp got near freezing before driving further.

Put some insulation against the turnbuckle doors and run a bead of sealant around the fridge trim to reduce infiltration.
Camco makes ceiling vent insulation mats & Dometic makes double wall replacement domes. Either of these should help retain heat while underway.

Having spent a winter in Joseph/Enterprise, I know it gets a lot colder there than in Hillsboro so you could run some experiments to test how your Hawk performs.

Paul

 

[Wallowa]

Phil,
You might try a propane steak saver with a one pound propane bottle to fuel either your furnace or a Wave 3 heater to keep the camper above freezing while traveling. Just a thought.

Steak saver device: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306161_200306161

Paul

Paul,

Thanks ..but two items...just my comfort zone..but I will not use any combustion heater inside the camper that is not directly vented to the outside...nor will I leave the propane on during travel...without going into my background, I have seen the results of doing this and it made a strong negative impression. I know folks do both, but not for me.

Thanks again for your suggestion...

Phil