Oops! All DC Power Cycling On-Off Every 3 mins +

[Wallowa]

I have two FWC 12v/75AH AGMs in parallel, a Blue Sea #7611 ACR, Victron 712 BVM and Zamp 30amp Controller..160/170 Zamp solar panels.

After installing my second solar panel on the top; I went into only sun we have had in weeks and ran both Fantastic Fans at full power plus the 110 fridge on max setting to draw down the batteries [SOC 100%]...about 3 mins+ into this all DC goes off-line, I wait, about 3 mins later all DC is back on....this cycle just kept repeating..at this time I was only on solar input...took FWC into shop...used only Tundra Battery Tender, turned on fans and cycle repeated...only 110 v and cycle repeated..

Blue Sea said that the ACR should not ever shut off available current to FWC, only isolate the truck from the camper depending on voltage.

Man, I am at a loss. What did I miss?

Any experience with this or ideas are certainly welcomed!

Thanks...Phil

 

[PaulT]

That sounds like the action of a resettable circuit breaker. From the factory, there is a 30 amp breaker in the camper between the isolator and the wires to the alternator. There is another 30 amp breaker installed at the end of the 10 gauge wires run in the engine compartment. Wire from the truck battery terminates on the breaker under the hood.

However, in this situation, they should not be carrying any current to trip. They are there to protect the 10 gauge wire the factory uses during camper installation for alternator charging. Is your truck battery fully charged?

If the truck battery is way down and the Iota is charging the truck battery while also powering the fans, fridge, and lights and charging the camper batteries, there could be some current draw.

You might want to draw out the wiring as installed and maybe someone here will see something. Vic, rando or others may well have some ideas.

Paul

 

[Wallowa]

Thanks Paul...yes truck battery is a newer AGM and always on Battery Tender; it was at 100% SOC..

I assume that either the Controller, BVM or ACR is shutting down the current...

I know the location of both circuit breakers you are referring to but don't see how they could shut off all DC power...re-ran the test for 3,000th time and when it shuts down the voltage is 12.6 and SOC [BVM] is 99+%...still lose all DC and after about 3+ mins it comes on only to again shut down..

I have a "call" in to Vic and to Zamp...sent photos to Blue Sea and posted question on Victron forum...so far no joy..

Phil

Ps...Joe at Zamp just returned my call...gave me a couple of tests to run, but nothing definitive said the Controller will only shut down at above 15v +...I never saw a voltage near 15.

 

[rando]

Neither the ACR or BMV can disconnect your 12V appliances from the batteries. The only two things that could do this are a circuit breaker or the Zamp solar controller and only if everything is wired through the load terminals. I don't even know if the Zamp has load terminals though.

I am going to go with Pauls diagnosis - you have an auto reseting thermal circuit breaker between the batteries and your 12V distribution panel and your load is sufficient that it is tripping, cooling down reseting, then heating up and tripping again.

Can you verify what is between the batteries and your 12V distribution/fuse panel?

 

[Wallowa]

Neither the ACR or BMV can disconnect your 12V appliances from the batteries. The only two things that could do this are a circuit breaker or the Zamp solar controller and only if everything is wired through the load terminals. I don't even know if the Zamp has load terminals though.

I am going to go with Pauls diagnosis - you have an auto reseting thermal circuit breaker between the batteries and your 12V distribution panel and your load is sufficient that it is tripping, cooling down reseting, then heating up and tripping again.

Can you verify what is between the batteries and your 12V distribution/fuse panel?

=====================================================================================


Lost my post...try again..Paul thanks... I have no idea what a "Load Terminal" is or looks like...Thom at Blue Sea spotted a thermal circuit breaker in the photo I sent him, it was on FWC Eaton separator and I left it on ACR , which Thom said they did not use but using it was fine...only other circuit breaker I know of is under the hood that FWC installed, I believe between alternator and separator..I assume both are thermal circuit breakers but what would cause one to open? Little current flow and it is 50 degrees in shop.

Thom said the photo of battery banks with BMV shunt wired in looked like I have two -ve wires coming off of the batteries [one off each]...one small gauge and one large one which is the only wire on "Battery" side of shunt...Joe at Zamp mentioned an unwanted ground could cause issues...will call them both tomorrow. Guess I could disconnect the small gauge black [ground?] wire and see what happens..

Joe at Zamp had me cover panels [in shop with lights out] and try to replicate the loss of DC with 110 IOTA and then with Tundra running[both fans on high]....neither time did the DC shut down... I recorded voltage and amps during these tests..then with no added power input, 110 or truck or solar, and the DC shut off at 12.6 volts just like before...plugged back into 110 and quickly ran up to float @ 13.6v...never did SOC go below 99.8%.

Does FWC anywhere have wiring diagrams for a Hawk?

Thanks to everyone for helping with this..Phil

Ps...Wild Card: Together my recently added Zamp 170w and FWC Zamp 160w panels = max 18.24 amps [18volts] and the splitter to connect them [SAE] is rated to a max 20 amps..Joe did not think this was an issue..and again said the Zamp Controller would only shut down current if too high a voltage was present.

 

[Vic Harder]

Phil, adding to what rando and Joe are saying, the ZAMP controller will shut down if over voltage ONLY if you are using LOAD connectors on the ZAMP (if it even has load connectors). And you are not seeing shutdowns in over voltage cases, based on what you are describing above.

 

[ntsqd]

How many watts total in solar? Seems like your problems started with the added panel. Breakers are supposedly directional, but it would not surprise me if one tripped from charge current (current going the other direction effectively reversing the polarity across the breaker). However, you should need more than 30A charging current to trip the breaker, and that would surprise me.

 

[Wallowa]

How many watts total in solar? Seems like your problems started with the added panel. Breakers are supposedly directional, but it would not surprise me if one tripped from charge current (current going the other direction effectively reversing the polarity across the breaker). However, you should need more than 30A charging current to trip the breaker, and that would surprise me.

So much of this I can't understand, but slowly I am learning...I hope!

I did not run the fans or draw down any power until after I : Added ACR 7611, Victron BMV 712 Smart and the second Zamp 170w panel [see post 5]; then I ran into the shut off problem....in my most recent test under a heavy overcast I pulled out of the shop and shut down the Tundra...covering one panel at a time, each panel was putting out 1.2a, combined 2.2a...so panels are fine....turn on fans to high; initially -4.67a @ float voltage of 13.6v...slowly the solar panels could not keep up with draw down of -3.94a and voltage slowly dropped..over 3 mins when voltage hit 12.6v and then all DC power was off....let solar pump in 2.2a and about 4 mins later, power back on @ 13.1v ...these "Off" and "On" voltages are a consistent occurrence ...12.6v off and 13.1v back on.

ACR has similar values for "open" and "combined" circuits: 12.75v for 25 secs = 'open' and 13.0v over 2min = 'combined [closed]'.

I have a couple of things to try tomorrow, a small gauge Sneaker Wire still on AGM battery -ve terminal that will go onto 'load' side of shunt and to reverse two wires on the ACR that may be incorrect [thanks Tom for photo] ...we shall see...hey, hope floats!

Nothing I have will generate 30a; or so I believe. BMV 'charging current' parameter is set at 14.1v, about the max for my IOTA Q4.

Appreciate everyone pitching in and the advice...thanks!

Phil

Ps..Stan @FWC sent me wiring diagrams...not that I could follow them but they give me a starting spot to comprehending what goes where....now to root through the cabinets and find them.

PPs...It is a possibility that one of my batteries has croaked...5 years old but always on float when not on road..

 

[Wallowa]

Problem solved!!!

Copy of email to several who have spent a lot of time helping me...explains what was incorrect and my "fix"..as could be expected it was "operator error"... No photos.

Thanks to the many who have chipped in with advice, questions and experiences.

Phil

===================================================================================================

Joe, Vic, Thom, Tom, Stan and Keith,

First a heartfelt thank you! Appreciate all the support and time that helping me consumed out of your day .

ACR was indeed at the heart of the problem. Like I had posted, the 12.6v shut-off and 13.1v re-connect was the tip off for me as it mirrored the ACR on/off values.

Nowhere in the FWC wiring diagram does it show the two white FWC wires that connect to either side {A/B/} of the ACR. I thought I had replaced them correctly but in fact I had them reversed. When removing them [white wires] from the Eaton separator there was no indications of how they needed to be connected to the new ACR; I got them backwards. Tom D. was great and sent me a photo of wiring connections on his ACR in a FWC. After staring at the two photos, his wiring and mine, I finally saw that the one white wire with sheath markings on my ACR was on the opposite side of the ACR than on Tom’s. [See photos below]

I reversed the two white wires on my ACR. Unplugged 110 and Battery Tender; turned on two Fantastic Fans on high. Starting voltage as before was at the float level of 13.6v and 0.0a; when fans went on -4.6a and voltage very slowly started down. I got very nervous as it approach the previous shut-off voltage of 12.6v but thankfully it went past that voltage and then stabilized at constant 12.47-12.50v for a 10 min test run. No more shutting down!

Also took the small gauge blk wire off the #1 battery –ve terminal and connected it to the load side of the shunt. Also as Vic recommended, I took the Victron 712 BMV Temperature Sensor wires and the FWC fused larger gauge wire off the #2 battery +ve terminal and installed them on #1 battery +ve terminal. All positive wires to #1 battery and only –ve wire, from Battery side of shunt, is on the #2 battery –ve terminal. Still have parallel connection wires between #1 and #2 batteries.

Re-tested as I have previously done; fans kept running. No shut down; voltage and amperage values the same.

I owe each of you a beverage of your choice and any help I can give you in the future. Learned a lot, but still a newbie at this. Now to finish packing for my February long ski tour!

Thanks,

Phil

 

[Outnabout]

Problem solved!!!

Copy of email to several who has spent a lot of time helping me...explains what was incorrect and my "fix"..as could be expected it was "operator error"... No photos.

Thanks to the many who have chipped in with advice, questions and experiences.

Phil

===================================================================================================

Joe, Vic, Thom, Tom, Stan and Keith,

First a heartfelt thank you! Appreciate all the support and time that helping me consumed out of your day .

ACR was indeed at the heart of the problem. Like I had posted, the 12.6v shut-off and 13.1v re-connect was the tip off for me as it mirrored the ACR on/off values.

Nowhere in the FWC wiring diagram does it show the two white FWC wires that connect to either side {A/B/} of the ACR. I thought I had replaced them correctly but in fact I had them reversed. When removing them [white wires] from the Eaton separator there was no indications of how they needed to be connected to the new ACR; I got them backwards. Tom D. was great and sent me a photo of wiring connections on his ACR in a FWC. After staring at the two photos, his wiring and mine, I finally saw that the one white wire with sheath markings on my ACR was on the opposite side of the ACR than on Tom’s. [See photos below]

I reversed the two white wires on my ACR. Unplugged 110 and Battery Tender; turned on two Fantastic Fans on high. Starting voltage as before was at the float level of 13.6v and 0.0a; when fans went on -4.6a and voltage very slowly started down. I got very nervous as it approach the previous shut-off voltage of 12.6v but thankfully it went past that voltage and then stabilized at constant 12.47-12.50v for a 10 min test run. No more shutting down!

Also took the small gauge blk wire off the #1 battery –ve terminal and connected it to the load side of the shunt. Also as Vic recommended, I took the Victron 712 BMV Temperature Sensor wires and the FWC fused larger gauge wire off the #2 battery +ve terminal and installed them on #1 battery +ve terminal. All positive wires to #1 battery and only –ve wire, from Battery side of shunt, is on the #2 battery –ve terminal. Still have parallel connection wires between #1 and #2 batteries.

Re-tested as I have previously done; fans kept running. No shut down; voltage and amperage values the same.

I owe each of you a beverage of your choice and any help I can give you in the future. Learned a lot, but still a newbie at this. Now to finish packing for my February long ski tour!

Thanks,

Phil

That’s great Phil. Glad your problem is solved. Your ski tour sounds wonderful. Backcountry or resort? Love to hear about when you get back.
-Tom

 

[Wallowa]

That’s great Phil. Glad your problem is solved. Your ski tour sounds wonderful. Backcountry or resort? Love to hear about when you get back.
-Tom

Tom,

Thanks.

Starting at White Pass 1-31 and continuing across Wa, Id and Mont hitting as many ski hills [7-8] as I feel like it...furthest East will be Red Lodge [only hill on that route that I have skied [mid-80s] is Bridger] and then down into Idaho before coming home to Enterprise, Or....ski hills and hopefully "earning my turns" skin-up/ski down..no time limit all February and if my body and snow holds up into March...

Man, it feels good to have a solution to my "stop right there" electrical problem....no illusions though, as I told Vic, it is often "better to be lucky than good!".

Phil

 

[Vic Harder]

You were a pleasure to work with Phil. Enjoy the skiing!

 

[Vic Harder]

https://enerdrive.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/How-to-connect-batteries-correctly.pdf

While working with Phil on this issue, I ran across this great PDF... well explained!

 

[Wallowa]

Wow!...simple enough for even me to understand! Thanks Vic....of course knowing me, a couple of questions:

#1 Why should you not solder cable connections?

#2 In my '16 [or current year] Hawk, what gauge cable did FWC use between my SAE solar roof plug and the controller? And on a Hawk what is the approximate run length of that cable? Big one for my now with close to 20a @ 18v solar output.

As we discussed my next move to Li and a different controller will be a can of worms for me...really need to read up and get a grasp of the parameters and restrictions when changing over from AGM to LiFePo4.

Note at end of article that they show the DC-DC charger that they make....that is another device that I have zero knowledge of ....yet that is...

Phil

 

[Vic Harder]

Soldering can create problems when cables have to flex. The soldered part is very stiff, and that can lead to stress which can cause a wire/cable to break.

I think the wire is 10g. You can confirm that by pulling the 4" high x 48"? long trim piece along the driver's side of the bed area. The wires are that go to the roof run along there. The wire gauge is printed (I need a magnifying glass for a that!) on the wires.

DC-DC... stick with Victron if you are going that way with your MPPT, rather than mixing brands/gear.

 

[Wallowa]

Soldering can create problems when cables have to flex. The soldered part is very stiff, and that can lead to stress which can cause a wire/cable to break.

I think the wire is 10g. You can confirm that by pulling the 4" high x 48"? long trim piece along the driver's side of the bed area. The wires are that go to the roof run along there. The wire gauge is printed (I need a magnifying glass for a that!) on the wires.

DC-DC... stick with Victron if you are going that way with your MPPT, rather than mixing brands/gear.

Thanks...see new topic I started...my solar wiring is 10 gauge and FWC says it has a 15 amp fuse...

Ha! This is almost funny, but going from bad to worst..now what?

Phil

 

[longhorn1]

I think I should get a beer for following this post.[emoji41][emoji16][emoji851]just kidding. Glad you got it figured out. JD

Problem solved!!!

Copy of email to several who have spent a lot of time helping me...explains what was incorrect and my "fix"..as could be expected it was "operator error"... No photos.

Thanks to the many who have chipped in with advice, questions and experiences.

Phil

===================================================================================================

Joe, Vic, Thom, Tom, Stan and Keith,

First a heartfelt thank you! Appreciate all the support and time that helping me consumed out of your day .

ACR was indeed at the heart of the problem. Like I had posted, the 12.6v shut-off and 13.1v re-connect was the tip off for me as it mirrored the ACR on/off values.

Nowhere in the FWC wiring diagram does it show the two white FWC wires that connect to either side {A/B/} of the ACR. I thought I had replaced them correctly but in fact I had them reversed. When removing them [white wires] from the Eaton separator there was no indications of how they needed to be connected to the new ACR; I got them backwards. Tom D. was great and sent me a photo of wiring connections on his ACR in a FWC. After staring at the two photos, his wiring and mine, I finally saw that the one white wire with sheath markings on my ACR was on the opposite side of the ACR than on Tom’s. [See photos below]

I reversed the two white wires on my ACR. Unplugged 110 and Battery Tender; turned on two Fantastic Fans on high. Starting voltage as before was at the float level of 13.6v and 0.0a; when fans went on -4.6a and voltage very slowly started down. I got very nervous as it approach the previous shut-off voltage of 12.6v but thankfully it went past that voltage and then stabilized at constant 12.47-12.50v for a 10 min test run. No more shutting down!

Also took the small gauge blk wire off the #1 battery –ve terminal and connected it to the load side of the shunt. Also as Vic recommended, I took the Victron 712 BMV Temperature Sensor wires and the FWC fused larger gauge wire off the #2 battery +ve terminal and installed them on #1 battery +ve terminal. All positive wires to #1 battery and only –ve wire, from Battery side of shunt, is on the #2 battery –ve terminal. Still have parallel connection wires between #1 and #2 batteries.

Re-tested as I have previously done; fans kept running. No shut down; voltage and amperage values the same.

I owe each of you a beverage of your choice and any help I can give you in the future. Learned a lot, but still a newbie at this. Now to finish packing for my February long ski tour!

Thanks,

Phil

 

[Wallowa]

I think I should get a beer for following this post.[emoji41][emoji16][emoji851]just kidding. Glad you got it figured out. JD

Goods one JD! Come on up to Oregon and I will order in a Shiner Bock for you! Sorry I go so longwinded.

Phil