Overweight: Your perspective

[cwdtmmrs]

Ya gotta love thread drift....

I am not a big proponent of running overweight. Nor am I crazy about any truck that requires extensive suspension modifications just to get it to do what it should do from the factory. To me the bigger issue is why are the newer campers getting so much heavier than the older models, and is it necessary? My mid 90's FWC Ranger II (basically an Eagle) with furnace, 3-way fridge, stove,12 gallons of water, tankless water heater, small generator, compressor, Wave heater, BBQ and food and gear for a 2 week hunting trip is still under 1,000 lbs on a truck scale. I have read where others have posted that their shell builds are heaver than that and a loaded camper at 1,500 lbs +. My truck/camper combo is right at 4,700 lbs. wet.

cwd

 

[rando]

To keep on topic - I am not sure that overloading really is hell on transmissions, engines or even brakes. In terms of the transmission and engine at least, carrying more weight on the truck itself is no different to towing that weight and for the brakes, it is no different than towing an unbraked trailer. I am going to guess those that are overloaded are mostly overloaded by a couple of hundred pounds, or maybe a thousand pounds at most. In all most all cases this is still way, way below the Gross Combined Weight Rating - which is 11,xxx pounds, even for a Tacoma. You are still within the operating spec for the engine/transmission anyway. Of course more weight is more wear, but that is always the case, whether you are carrying a 100lb payload a 500lb payload or a 1500lb payload.

 

[dharte]

Wow....from a thread dedicated to the question of being OVERWEIGHT and what truck/camper combo works or not, it's now a Toyota vs. Detroit argument.

1) I doubt more than 1/10th of one percent of us will EVER take ANY kind of truck with 100,000-200,000 miles out so far in the boondocks we have to be worried all the time that our "Detroit Iron" will break down so that has nothing to do with this thread.
2) Reliability vs cost? If you buy a Toyota because a Big Three costs too much, then buy a Big Three that is less than three years old with under 20,000 miles that some other camper owner used infrequently and has all the bells and whistles.
3) This isn't about how wider trucks and/or campers will restrict where you go, hell, its a big country so if Back Road "A" is going to scratch your nice new $40,000 truck and $25,000 camper then maybe you should consider Back Road "B"?
4) This thread is asking the basic question about overloading any truck. The basic response is "Well, everybody does it!" but so what, that does not make it any safer or smarter or easier on the truck when you do that.
5) Just because "The Beverly Hillbillies" made it to LA with a very overweight truck does not mean it was a good idea, even if they had helper springs, sway bars, air bags and "E" rated tires on that truck. No offense, but the phrase "putting lipstick on a pig" comes to mind here.

OK, maybe after you load up for a couple weeks in the bush you run across the scales to check the GVWR and the weight of each axle you discover you are OVERLOADED on the rear axle but still under the GVWR you feel that is still safe that's your business. Maybe 100 or 200 lbs won't be a problem. Then again maybe you find you are 300+ lbs over loaded on the rear axle...and you have everyone blinking their lights at you as if you had your high beams on then maybe your rig is a little bit too heavy?

Maybe you have each axle right at it's load capacity...then you find out you are WAY over the GVWR...is that a good idea? My '88 F-250 4x4 has a front axle capacity of 3920 lbs and a rear axle capacity of 6084 lbs...but the GVWR is 8800 lbs. Hmm, if I weigh the front and find I am right at 3920 and the rear and am right at 6084....then I am now at 10,004 lbs!!!! that is 1,200 OVER the GVWR!

Bad Idea! So...back to the original topic... "Overweight: Your Perspective"....I think safety overrules all other considerations here.

By the way, if you do go buy a new truck and then add sway bars, spring leafs or different springs or air bags....have you just voided your warrantee from the manufacturer because I think over loading is a sure way to wear out brakes, is hell on transmissions and probably may be a cause for engine problems aside from standard recall issues.

Aside from all that....its your truck, its your camper its your safety out there on the highway and off the highway....make wise choices my friends!

My truck has over 100,00 miles and I don't hesitate to take it anywhere it can go (no technical jeep tracks where I would have clearance issues). When I am out in the boondocks, I am more worried about an injury, and have thought about getting a satellite phone.

 

[Tubel5000]

Wow....from a thread dedicated to the question of being OVERWEIGHT and what truck/camper combo works or not, it's now a Toyota vs. Detroit argument.

1) I doubt more than 1/10th of one percent of us will EVER take ANY kind of truck with 100,000-200,000 miles out so far in the boondocks we have to be worried all the time that our "Detroit Iron" will break down so that has nothing to do with this thread.

4) This thread is asking the basic question about overloading any truck. The basic response is "Well, everybody does it!" but so what, that does not make it any safer or smarter or easier on the truck when you do that.

Thank you, PackRat!

1) As I stated in my opening post, I am looking for a budget option to wander through the US and plan to go further with it (at least Panama). Looking at my limited funds, I will for sure not end up with a truck that has less than 100K miles on it..

4) True, and I am thankful for your opinion on this since I was asking myself all the time if I was overlooking something or if overloading was just something everybody does

 

[ntsqd]

Not so much over-working of the brakes, but extending the stopping distance beyond whatever the MFG or Gov't deemed to be the max acceptable distance.

As far as reliability, my old '84 Xcab had ~250k on it when sold. Our CTD has ~350k on it now. Both I rate highly reliable, but that is JUST those two trucks. I don't take isolated cases and extrapolate them to be representative of the whole. There is no way that the '84 could haul this camper and maintain that reliability.

 

[Stalking Light]

Brakes are probably my biggest concern and my overloaded Taco has the towing package and I can't tell that the stopping distance has been extended at all.

 

[moveinon]

On my previous Taco because I was going down steep mountain roads with heavy load regularly I also was concerned about braking and upgraded to Tundra brakes. It was easy and fairly inexpensive -there are now a number of UTube videos on the process. It reduces braking distance substantially. The braking on my current Taco is nothing special, just OK with the Fleet on, not a big difference than without the camper (I also have the towing package). I plan on doing the same brake upgrade on my current truck as soon as I need a brake job. The basic parts are widely available at junk yards. As previous posters have said I have no concern about being in the boondocks with a high mileage truck, only about me getting hurt and not being able to call for help.

 

[JaSAn]

My question is:
- Aren't you worried about insurance in case of an accident (being overloaded)?
- Overloaded pickups tend to break (frame) - Is that a problem you are aware of? If so, how do you handle it?
- what is your approach to that obvious problem?

My 2¢:

Any engineer worth his pay builds in a safety factor into all his designs. So if your truck has a GVWR of 6000 lbs it is not going to break at 6001 lbs. The safety factor is company specific and they usually don't want to tell you what it is for obvious reasons.

Any system (mechanical especially) will wear more the closer to maximum loading you get.

Having been in meetings with marketing and accounting where blood flowed ankle deep at the suggestion of adding 1/2¢ to the cost of the product, I would doubt that simply changing one component would significantly increase the GVWR of a truck. One, components are usually well matched with load bearing capacity with the others because of cost and weight concerns. Two, I cannot imagine any marketing department not wanting to put E rated tires on a truck, calling it a 'camper special' and charging more for it.

The only two components I am concerned about with overloading are brakes and tires, since they can affect others. Tires should never, ever, ever be overloaded; bad things happen! Insufficient brakes can be somewhat accommodated by modifying your driving. Worn tires and bad brakes are a deadly combination.

I don't get my undies in a wad about someone I pass being a few hundred pounds over max, i worry about the behemoths with 3 feet of overhang and two slide outs wallowing down the road on a 3/4 or 1T truck pulling a huge boat.

As to insurance: I don't know. But in our litigious society it wouldn't surprise me if someone gets sued for being over GVWR as reason for causing the accident and the courts are pretty much a crapshoot.

As to frame breaking: I havn't seen it and I have seen some repeatedly overloaded trucks.

I have run three Dodge trucks to close to 300,000 miles with little problem. I would have no problem taking them into the boonies. Got rid of them because of body rust and small stuff starting to break.

I agree with PackRat: determine your needs and usage and then go get the truck/camper that will meet your requirements. I have a Grandby on a Ram 2500: ~ 800 lbs under GVWR wet. I like a little margin in my life.

jim

 

[Bad Habit]

Tires, tires, brakes, tires, springs, shocks

In that order...

 

[smlobx]

Tubel5000,

I've written a number of article on this issue on Overland Tech and Travel. Search for JATAC and you'll find them. One looked at emergency handling, here. There's no doubt you'll be beyond the GVWR of a Tacoma with a Four Wheel Camper and all equipment, but there are steps you can take to compensate. Suspension is obviously number one.

The broken chassis referenced in the link is not a good example, I believe, due to the previous "reinforcements" added by the owner. It's impossible to say whether or not the frame would have broken if those had not been in place. I'm not a fan of the current open-channel frame of the Tacoma, but I'm not worried about actual breakage.

Jonathan it's interesting that you seem to advocate modifying a taco as a suitable remedy but in your signature line you are promoting the "Overlanding Bible" which emphatically states under no circumstances to exceed the GVWR of your vehicle as using a vehicle in an off-road situation is typically beyond the intended use of most vehicles.

I happen to agree with "The Bible" and have bought a F-350 to allow us to go off-road and still be under our GVWR. I know I am in the minority on this and that's OK. I just find it amusing that many on forums like this (and others) seem to have a better engineering background than the people who designed our vehicles....

 

[SeatoSea]

And we're not suppose to talk politics, I love this web site

 

[ntsqd]

I just find it amusing that many on forums like this (and others) seem to have a better engineering background than the people who designed our vehicles....

I'm semi self-banned from one forum because the net-educated "Engineers" clearly know more about this sort of thing than I do. Just ask them, they'll tell you so (and they have) and won't tolerate disagreement.

 

[CamperCamper]

I took a 2015 Tundra dbl cab 4x4 with a 2014 Hawk slide in to some remote areas and rough roads in Baja, MX in March 2017 and March 2016. My weight certificate fully loaded ( 2 occupants in the cab, 47 gals water, 26 gals fuel, two full propane tanks, moderate amounts of recovery gear, camp stove etc.) had me at 8800 lbs in 2017 and 8400 lbs in 2016 (more gear from what I learned on the first trip). The GVWR of the Tundra is right around 7200 lbs. My experience with weights is probably closer to reality for most folks than they care to believe. A well equipped Hawk slide in will tip the scales at 1300 to 1500 lbs. Mine weighed 1350lbs, the fuel is right around 210 lbs, the water right at 400 lbs. you can see I don't carry an excessive amount of gear!

The truck has a custom spring pack, ride rite air bags, sway bar and E rated tires. The spring pack was built to carry that load and the air bags level the load. In 2017, I had 12 psi in one bag and 8 psi in the other. This pressure in the bags took the truck right back to the factory height when it rolled off the dealer's lot. I have a chart (put together from Michelin) that tells me the air pressure required in each tire to support a given load. The tires will carry 80 psi (btw, that 80 psi translates to 6,830 lbs per axel or 13,600 of weight for both axels!) but have never been anywhere near that pressure because my weight does not come close to the tire limit and the ride is too bouncy with too much air. I start with the front axel and inflate to a pressure 500 lbs above the required pressure for that load. Looking at the door sticker from the manufacturer, I learned that the factory settings for the P rated tires looked for a 3 psi increase to the rear tires over front tires and I set the rear tires 3 psi above the front tire pressure determined from my chart and weight certificate. If necessary, I shift cargo around to keep both axels close to 500 lbs below the tire settings.

I drive up to 70 mph on US freeways, keep a very safe following distance (even in my passenger vehicles) and averaged 14 mpg with the 5.7L motor on both trips of over 3500 miles. The vehicle now has close to 30,000 miles (all driven with the camper on the truck as this is not my daily driver) and I just completed an exhaustive inspection at my buddie's shop. He asked me if I used the brakes when inspecting them since they show absolutely no sign of wear. We checked (with torque wrench) every body bolt, spring shackle bolt, frame bolt, upper and lower control arms, etc. Everything was at factory specifications. We checked front and rear diff levels etc, etc, etc. My tires are rated at 60,000 mile wear and I do a 5 tire rotation every 5k miles. They still have over 95% of the original tread on them. I change the synthetic oil every 5k miles despite a recommendation of every 10k miles. I fully expect this truck to last a very long time and treat it as if that is my goal!

I am a Toyota guy. And a Honda guy too. They are superior vehicles to the domestic lineup in my opinion. I base that opinion on 30 years of real life experience as a wholesale auto dealer (left the retail side of the business to the more patient types in the industry). I have bought and sold literally 10's of thousands of used vehicles. When that many vehicles cross your path, some fairly consistent data can come your way. It takes away the bias that can crop up with a limited sample size. Every manufacturer makes good vehicles and some bad vehicles. If you only own one then your opinion can get tilted by the small sample size. Can my Toyota let me down? You betcha. My experience tells me that the probability is less than with some other manufacturers. The Toyotas and Hondas on average last longer, have more miles and are generally in better condition and keep a higher resale value than their domestic counterparts. But hey, there are some dealers who will tell you the exact opposite of my experience. This argument never ends.

You should buy the vehicle that best suits your needs, build it so that it is safe and reliable for your intended use and above all maintain it religiously as if your life depended on it-cuz it does!

I hope my experiences help you with your decision.

 

[Vic Harder]

You should buy the vehicle that best suits your needs, build it so that it is safe and reliable for your intended use and above all maintain it religiously as if your life depended on it-cuz it does!

Excellent advice!

 

[klahanie]

I took a 2015 Tundra dbl cab 4x4 with a 2014 Hawk slide in to some remote areas and rough roads in Baja, MX in March 2017 and March 2016. My weight certificate fully loaded ( 2 occupants in the cab, 47 gals water, 26 gals fuel, two full propane tanks, moderate amounts of recovery gear, camp stove etc.) had me at 8800 lbs in 2017 and 8400 lbs in 2016 (more gear from what I learned on the first trip). The GVWR of the Tundra is right around 7200 lbs. My experience with weights is probably closer to reality for most folks than they care to believe. A well equipped Hawk slide in will tip the scales at 1300 to 1500 lbs. Mine weighed 1350lbs, the fuel is right around 210 lbs, the water right at 400 lbs. you can see I don't carry an excessive amount of gear!

I agree with knowing your numbers and the "add it all up first" approach. I made a spread sheet before our current set up and still weight the rig on almost every trip using closed public hwy scales. However it's important to be aware that you may want to carry more weight going forward as a result of experience and new wants. That's why I would recommend to someone new to campers and who's both truck and camper shopping (like the OP, I assume) not to be calculated overweight from day one if at all possible. My perspective being, chances are you're going to add weight after getting started and having some payload room will make more palatable those decisions to add that weight, whether it be for mods for the vehicle or camper, or gear for recovery, camping, new activities etc. You may end up over GWVR, but getting there will be incremental choices - like eating cookies.

As for Toyota vs the world (and yes, I pined for and purchased an '86 Toyota truck, back in the day), from a layman's POV I'd say a Tundra would be a much better bet for starting out being overloaded than a Tacoma that the OP asked about. But again it comes down to one's own comfort level.

 

[iowahiker]

My "philosophy": I want trouble free, no attention, driving for 150,000 to 250,000 miles going anywhere (transcontinental interstates to single track dirt roads) short of requiring skid plates (since I do not have skid plates). My truck is totally stock and performs flawlessly under those conditions. I take the truck to the dealer every 8-10,000 miles and do not otherwise think about my truck which is totally stock. My GVWR is 8200 pounds and my loaded and wet weight is around 7500 pounds.

Braking: perfect.
Sag: none.
Modifications: none.
Fuel economy: better than our goal prior to purchase (goal- 15 mpg, actual- 15.5 mpg).
Handling: perfect.
Ride: perfect.
Go anywhere: no.
Go where I want to go: yes.

 

[gfiero]

I have and am selling a 2016 Swift or a 2007 Tacoma because of the weight issue, The brakes are taxed, the suspension is taxed but most of all the engine is not up to this load. Before the camper with a FlipPac I got 15 mpg approx. now about 11 mpg. Have to get up to 3500rpm to climb hills or even freeway over passes. There is no such thing as an emergency stop in this combination. Suspension is EMU Dakar with Dever leafs (2) added to rear of vehicle. Since the camper is new it is a hard sell, so I am also looking at a Ram 1500 4x4. At 9200 ft elevation the truck could not even wheeze....

I require my combination to take me places where there is no road, no path so maybe I require a little more out my toys.

I love the camper, I love my Tacoma but this is not a match made in heaven. Modifications do not make the whole vehicle capable of managing this weight in all conditions, so I will loose money one or the other and correctly match my needs to capabilities.

Just my take on the issue,

 

[JaSAn]

gfriero:

might I suggest you look at 3/4 ton pickups. Floating axles, bigger brakes, stiffer suspension, about 1000 lbs more payload.
And watch out for 20" wheels on some 1/2 ton pickups. Look great but poor selection of load range E tires, which you will want if you do any driving off maintained roads.

I have a Grandby on a 2012 Ram 2500. Weighs in at 7900 lb with 2 weeks boondocking supplies.

jim

 

[buckland]

Check out the Colorado 2.8 deisel... my eagle is on it.... used to be 4 cylinder Tacoma...Now I have incredible 369 pounds of torque. The camper weigh does nothing to the acceleration .... pass people on hills. I got 27 mpg on my last trip.... usually average 24.
I put an ada-a-leaf, bags and a sway bar on. I am happy and think you would be too... take a test drive. Eagle and fleet are almost the same.

 

[klahanie]

gfiero,

Too bad to read about your experience but if you are not confident in the brakes you are doing the right thing in upgrading.

A turbo charged engine will make a noticeable power difference at high elevation. You might want to check out the ecodiesel in the Ram and ecoboost. in the F150. I don't know about the 1500 but one s/b able to get 2000# payload in a ecoboost ext cab/short box - if that is "enough". Of course if it were me I'd go larger, skipping the 3/4 to go 1 ton.

Before you sell it would be useful for you to know just how much laden weight was added to the Tacoma.

Funny thing about a fullsize, it can limit where one can travel vs a compact (because of size), yet can potentially enable one to go future, stay out longer or try more "risky" roads because of the usually larger payload allows one to bring more stuff (fuel, water, recovery gear etc). So care must still be taken not to end up overloaded ...